CRUA Turbo upgrade

[cpinde]

So I've figured out that my turbo is toast and as such it's time to upgrade. I'm fully deleted and am thinking I'll go with the xman CR190 hybrid mostly because it's water cooled and that should help me make heat in the winter, which is just about impossible now. Who else has used the XMAN CR190? How did you plumb in the water cooling? Any gotchas? What tuning did you go with? Did anyone do it without upgrading the HPFP, injectors, and higher fuel pressure regulator? Did you later upgrade the fueling?

 

[Cuzoe]

I'm thinking you'll find very few people have done it all. Not a lot of hybrid/bigger turbo mod info around here that I've seen. Likely some of that is because these cars are just getting out of scandal mandated warranty for a lot of folks.

There also the limits on power potential resulting from designing for efficiency. I'm not sure I've even seen a post about an actual drop in turbo upgrade like what Kerma offers. It makes sense though, a tune and delete is where you're getting bang for the buck.

We (the community, not me in, CA) are looking forward to your impressions though .

 

[cpinde]

I'm thinking you'll find very few people have done it all. Not a lot of hybrid/bigger turbo mod info around here that I've seen. Likely some of that is because these cars are just getting out of scandal mandated warranty for a lot of folks.

There also the limits on power potential resulting from designing for efficiency. I'm not sure I've even seen a post about an actual drop in turbo upgrade like what Kerma offers. It makes sense though, a tune and delete is where you're getting bang for the buck.

We (the community, not me in, CA) are looking forward to your impressions though .

Yeah I searched with very few hits. It’s not cheap to make power with these. If I can get close to the power that my A6 TDI has with spending around $2500 then I’ll be happy. The problem is I’m sure I’ll get the itch and want to go beyond in 6 months. I think I should just go buy the RS6 Avant now and stop messing around. Haha

 

[sardo_67]

if you don't have heat in the winter you have other issues. my 15 golf never has heat issues, even post delete in north texas a few month ago it would get warm just idling as i cleaned snow off with temps 30-40 in the morning.

i am also looking to upgrade my turbo as well but there seems to be absolutely ZERO info on how to and what's needed to run that Hybrid 190. i talked to Xman who basically said "idk, gotta buy it and figure it our yourself man". I'm not looking for a 200 page step by step install thing by any means but a basic list of extra parts, what needs to be fabricated and where to tie in the coolant would be nice so i can gauge install effort.

 

[Cuzoe]

I almost said something about considering a water cooled turbo upgrade as a way to get heat. I'm in SoCal so it doesn't really get cold but my better half would vehemently argue otherwise. If there was any problem with the getting heat in the "winter" she would let me know.

 

[cpinde]

if you don't have heat in the winter you have other issues. my 15 golf never has heat issues, even post delete in north texas a few month ago it would get warm just idling as i cleaned snow off with temps 30-40 in the morning.

i am also looking to upgrade my turbo as well but there seems to be absolutely ZERO info on how to and what's needed to run that Hybrid 190. i talked to Xman who basically said "idk, gotta buy it and figure it our yourself man". I'm not looking for a 200 page step by step install thing by any means but a basic list of extra parts, what needs to be fabricated and where to tie in the coolant would be nice so i can gauge install effort.

Coolant should be easy to tie into. The EGR cooler lines would be one place as those are tied together now. The swap should be easy and except for the coolant lines no need for instructions.

I don't know how you're making heat. When it's below 35 degrees the cooling system is so efficient that if I don't block off the front then I get no heat.

 

[sardo_67]

Coolant should be easy to tie into. The EGR cooler lines would be one place as those are tied together now. The swap should be easy and except for the coolant lines no need for instructions.

I don't know how you're making heat. When it's below 35 degrees the cooling system is so efficient that if I don't block off the front then I get no heat.

even before the delete my car always had heat no matter the temp, even sub 20* i get heat within 4-5 miles of driving mine on the highway im at 190

 

[kyle_h]

My guess:

coolant pipe	04L-121-065-CJ	1
coolant pipe	04L-122-157-S	1
coolant hose	04L-122-058-B	1
spring clamp	N-906-867-01	4
coolant hose	04L-122-058-F	1
coolant connection	04L-121-131-N	1

 

[GolfSW98]

Bumping thread as I am going to install a Kerma CR190 V2 on my golf as my original unit blew up on Friday. Per description, it is "plug and play". I guess that means no custom coolant plumbing, and the oil feed lines all bolt up? Impressive if so.

Garrett CR190 Turbo For 2015 and 2016 Mk7, B8 and Audi A3 TDI

cr190 turbo

kermatdi.com

 

[mayday_soc]

I’m not of much help as I do not have the cr190. I do have a Darkside gtb2260 kit. I upgraded to their stage 1 injectors and did the head bolt upgrade as well. I have a cp3 but it is not installed yet as the incorrect pump was sent out at the time of install. I did install the Darkside metering valve upgrade and worked with them on the tune. My dsg tune is Malone. I’m happy with the power to the point I may not even install the cp3. My tune is quite a bit Smokey for my liking tho. I still get great mpgs using the cars fake fuel efficiency numbers.

I would not recommend the cp3 if you are not upgrading injectors. Cp3 installs are involved and you should replace the timing belt/water pump at the same time. The best bang for the buck is just doing the turbo upgrade and tune. It’s a lot more expensive to do nozzles and you should do the head bolts while you’re in there. If you’re going to do the cp3/timing belt/water pump it’s really going to be expensive and you will not gain that much more performance. One of Darksides MK7 videos recommends not doing the cp3 unless you’re going to port the head. Just bolt on the turbo, upgrade the metering valve and call it a day.

I don’t know much about the kerma or Xman setups so what I said may not pertain to their kits. Good luck.

 

[GolfSW98]

Thanks for response and the good luck wishes. I will update on my progress. We picked up a used GX460 today with 90k miles, just so we have a reliable gas guzzler that can tow if need be, Hopefully I get some tracking numbers tomorrow and the swap isn't too difficult. We have lost two cars now since may, first one from an non-fault accident, now the TDI. Getting the golf back in action as well as having a GX in the garage will lower my stress greatly. One step at a time

 

[Cuzoe]

@GolfSW98 Were you tuned on your stock turbo? If so, I would very much like to hear how you think the CR190 compares to the tune alone. I mean, I want to hear your impressions of the Kerma CR190 either way... But I have been running Kerma's tune since pretty soon after I got the car and I can't even count the number of times I've had their CR190 added to cart.

There was a time when I was out driving canyons and back roads every weekend. The advertised power bump from tune to CR190 is pretty minimal but power all the way to redline was very appealing. I don't know that I've read any impressions on this upgrade but since I already have their tune and need (and want) to stay emissions compliant it makes the most sense for me.

 

[GolfSW98]

@GolfSW98 Were you tuned on your stock turbo? If so, I would very much like to hear how you think the CR190 compares to the tune alone. I mean, I want to hear your impressions of the Kerma CR190 either way... But I have been running Kerma's tune since pretty soon after I got the car and I can't even count the number of times I've had their CR190 added to cart.

There was a time when I was out driving canyons and back roads every weekend. The advertised power bump from tune to CR190 is pretty minimal but power all the way to redline was very appealing. I don't know that I've read any impressions on this upgrade but since I already have their tune and need (and want) to stay emissions compliant it makes the most sense for me.

Malone stage 1 and the exhaust is very free flowing. I completely agree that the power until redline is what sells this upgrade, you dont have to worry about the turbo because of all the headroom, as well as lower egts. As well as being compatible with or without emissions. Lack of air =soot so more boost on tap should help dpf life. I will for give first impressions after it's done

EDIT: is it actually stage 2? I don't think there is a Malone stage 1.

 

[Cuzoe]

Malone stage 1 and the exhaust is very free flowing. I completely agree that the power until redline is what sells this upgrade, you dont have to worry about the turbo because of all the headroom, as well as lower egts. As well as being compatible with or without emissions. Lack of air =soot so more boost on tap should help dpf life. I will for give first impressions after it's done

Indeed, it's still on my list although not high up since I don't get out for those runs anymore these days. Of course, your impression may move it up the list. It's the last thing I want to do before I feel comfortable putting the "GTD" badge on my steering wheel, haha. I've got the seats, black interior, AID, DCC (not doing IRS, gotta keep the DEF tank).

I've bumped the EGT limit and felt the cut, but only when actually trying to do so. The car (although not fast as a general matter) is faster than I can drive safely so I spend time in the curves. But there are a couple spots in the desert with miles of straight away and great visibility. Would love to see what the car can do if I could run it to redline in 6th, haha. And there are some nice 3rd/4th gear sweepers where another 800-1,200 RPM of power would be perfect.

 

[GolfSW98]

Ok, I swapped the new CR190 unit on from Kerma.

Initial impressions are: I feel like boost is on tap 100% of the time. Much better exhaust note. More or (regained?) power, even on same tuning. I also fixed a missing screw holding the Bosch MAF to the airbox, maybe that contributed to failure of last unit.

Scanguage 2 did pick up a boost spike momentarily at 31psi then holds steady at 27. I will need to get a mechanical boost gauge, but first I am considering just replacing the N75 valve. Now I did get similar spikes on the stock turbo. Right now I have not tried WOT yet, still babying it.
Edit: tried WOT now, wow. It's kind of scary. Feels fast.

Darkside claims the Golf GTD does max 31psi so maybe that is normal psi?

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As far as installation goes, if you have done a turbocharger before, you will be fine. Just remember what order to go in, keep your screws labeled. If you have fancy tooling to help get in tight spaces, you will thank yourself for getting those. Would recommend using ramps at a bare minimum and have a work light or two. Basically a week ago my stock unit blew, and now she's driving again. Kit is definitely plug and play.

 

[Cuzoe]

I did not need to read such a positive impression. And as a test of my reading comprehension, you're still running the tune from the CR150?

I suppose my only concern was possibly increased turbo lag. Not that the CR190 is a big turbo, or that I drive fast, or that I haven't driven cars with much more lag, or that are just plain slower than the TDI to begin with.

 

[GolfSW98]

I did not need to read such a positive impression. And as a test of my reading comprehension, you're still running the tune from the CR150?

I suppose my only concern was possibly increased turbo lag. Not that the CR190 is a big turbo, or that I drive fast, or that I haven't driven cars with much more lag, or that are just plain slower than the TDI to begin with.

Yes, the tune is actually stage 2 from malone for the CR150, looks as if there isn't a stage 1. So my bad on that. The car no longer feels turbo limited at all, its all on the fueling now. And EGTs seem lots lower, and the exhaust note is just major wow. Amplified but with better quality. Sounds like a real rocket. As far as turbo lag, its like +12% at most, but you gain so much more power once it spools. Once you hit 4th gear its scary fast for what I'm used to. The unit isn't massively bigger, it's really just an oem plus type upgrade. I wonder what this does for mpg.

 

[Cuzoe]

I have no exhaust note now. Well... I do have structure soundaktor from the gassers and the external soundaktor from the GTD (wired and working but currently sitting on the floor behind my seat waiting to get an exhaust shop to mount it underneath) loaded with Lamborghini Urus firmware but I don't know if that counts .

I still have full emissions equipment so I don't expect to hear any difference with the CR190. Kerma only has Stage 1/1+. My understanding is the only difference between the two is the torque curve but not peak torque or power. Lower EGTs is one of the advertising points and is the only limit I've actually hit. The other "limit" is just the need to shift well before redline.

How does it hold through the upper RPMs? I don't really "need" more peak torque although it is an obvious plus. It's just the drop off in the upper RPMs that I would love to not have.

Looks like my Christmas list is set!

 

[GolfSW98]

I have no exhaust note now. Well... I do have structure soundaktor from the gassers and the external soundaktor from the GTD (wired and working but currently sitting on the floor behind my seat waiting to get an exhaust shop to mount it underneath) loaded with Lamborghini Urus firmware but I don't know if that counts .

I still have full emissions equipment so I don't expect to hear any difference with the CR190. Kerma only has Stage 1/1+. My understanding is the only difference between the two is the torque curve but not peak torque or power. Lower EGTs is one of the advertising points and is the only limit I've actually hit. The other "limit" is just the need to shift well before redline.

How does it hold through the upper RPMs? I don't really "need" more peak torque although it is an obvious plus. It's just the drop off in the upper RPMs that I would love to not have.

Looks like my Christmas list is set!

It holds. The power just does not stop, it's unreal. Reminds me of something out of fast and furious. Or a freight train.
If the kit goes on sale even slightly around BF or for the holidays it's a no brainer. Just imagine the stock unit blowing oil all over the dpf/scr/egr cooler when it fails, thats pricey/ messy and when you upgrade it's a brand new unit ready for a good service life.
I'll definitely have further impressions to share when I finally get to drive it to work this week. While the GX460 was a plush cloud to commute in, and if felt safer I miss the agility the golf had and I just feel the cr190 is a better built unit, I am also going for reliability, which is why I bought the golf initially. Turbos are just finicky sometimes, especially if not taken care of. I will treat this one better. Just gotta find a good boost guage!

maybe this one is good? I have to have mechanical. It's just too cool. The Uhaul we used to tow the golf had an efficiency vacumn gauge, and it was fun to toy with!

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[Cuzoe]

We just moved some stuff from one storage unit to one that's cheaper and closer to where we live now and the U-Haul had that gauge, it's practically all I looked at.

They offer a military discount that is the same as their best sale of the year, which for the last 3 years has been the Black Friday sale, at least on hardware like turbos. The military discount does not stack with the Black Friday sale. Not that I expected it, but I did ask, haha.

 

[GolfSW98]

I might have an oil leak, noticed a 2 drops about 3 inches in diameter on the driveway. So I will check oil feed/drain. I may have put the drain gasket on backwards, I figured the tapered part would go down (gravity)? Like a toilet wax ring does, but maybe it goes up into the drain of the turbo? Its super minor and have not noticed anything on dipstick changing. I'll get a mechanics mirror and check while engine is running.

edit: this is the gasket. The raised portion was facing down, arrow side of gasket to passenger side. looks like it goes up with arrow pointing to driver side. Based off of other gaskets that have retaining clips and only go on one way, looks as if the lip always goes up.

A9D8FB68-6E24-4390-ABC2-02185A88C955.jpeg

• GolfSW98
• Sep 11, 2023

Cr190 gasket

Used a new oil return gasket, retightened bolts. I still have some minor drips. Might be weepage from the subframe which was coated in oil when the last turbo blew. I alao have some smoking around the turbo, looks like thin film of some oil is pooled on the exhaust header where it transitions into the turbo. That could be from the gasket which is fixed, no idea how long it will take to cook off. The absolute worst case is that the turbo has a hairline crack from shipping damage, but that would be super rare to happen. I'll continue to monitor. Always checking oil levels, car drives amazing. It's perfect.

 

[GolfSW98]

Ok guys, new post for new update. I was at my wits end figuring out the oil drip/burning smell. Now I figured it out. The valve cover is done. It's misting a super fine spritz of oil on the turbo manifold, which creates burnt oil smell, and then the excess weeps down engine then the frame of the car. Insane.
The valve cover is plastic? Could me putting maybe 30-50lbs (spread out evenly) of my weight on it during the turbo install have damaged it, my back was killing me. Lets see what idparts has in stock.

And yeah, guess there was never a leak at the oil return/supply connections. I even bought erwin access to check torque specs all once over. Eh. Das auto.

My last thought: replace gasket or replace plastic valve cover and gasket?

Late night update/edit: the valve cover gasket is pushed out at the valve cover, beyond the mating surfaces, towards exhaust manifold where pooled oil was found/ right where the oil spray was found. Now the root cause? Many possibilities. May try just a gasket first. Now lets consider how much work the job is, the built in ccv/pcv stuff a whole new cover sounds smarter, now I know I need more parts like one time use bolts, crush washers, the rubber seals around the injectors. Cool stuff. Just glad I know the problem. That's what matters.

In addition to the Idparts CRUA valve cover, I will get this. They offer a fuel injector install kit that includes some of the following parts as well.

Part numbers:
4x WHT 006 497A Injector Fuel Line Return O-Ring
2x WHT 005 478 Injector Hold Down Bolts (id parts install kit includes)
4x WHT 000 884 Injector O-ring (id parts install kit includes)
4x 059 130 519 Injector Seal Ring (id parts install kit includes)

 

[Cuzoe]

There CR190s now show unavailable on Kerma's website . I'm hoping it's just temporary, and that I didn't miss a chance to pick up one up. Being I already have their loader/tune and it keeps emissions this is/was the easiest path for me. I've been putting it off largely because I don't know when I'd find the time to install.

Sent an email (via the form on the product page) and tried the chat function of the website but no replies yet.

 

[Cuzoe]

It's worth asking here, @KERMA did I miss my opportunity to grab a CR 90 for my MK7? Please say that so.

 

[KERMA]

it's temporary, give the guys a call and they can give you better info in a timeline than I can

 

[Cuzoe]

The CR 190s are back guys, in case you were wondering .

 

[Echo_Alpha]

I've got the Kerma CR190 kit installed and have finally been able to run it for about a month. I have a few issues to still deal with, such as a leaky intercooler pump, but overall I am very happy. It was a long road to getting it up and running, due to some unforeseen issues from previous owner's maintenance- fuel rail pressure drops. As part of the attempts to fix that (and kind of an excuse) the CP4 was replaced with a CP3 pump, both as insurance and to be ready for anything further.

I drove the car for a couple weeks on stock tune and while it was a nice highway cruiser, it definitely didn't feel as strong as the Mk6 2.5 I was leaving behind. However, a few months back I was able to drive the CR190 on a stock tune, and it didn't make much difference until above 3000, then I could feel it definitely was flowing more.

Now that the Kerma file is in and I've been able to drive it a bit, I have to say I really like it most of the time.

It holds. The power just does not stop, it's unreal. Reminds me of something out of fast and furious. Or a freight train.

I have to agree, the power really does keep increasing until above 4200 if you're willing to keep pushing the pedal down. Definitely like a freight train- it doesn't build the way I'm used power in a 2.0 TSI engine does, it takes a little bit to really start building. For typical highway driving, or in-town traffic driving, it's great and I'm happy that after all the pitfalls along the way it's working! Once you get the boost increasing, it just accelerates and accelerates, it can be freaky at times.

There are a few things I still need to investigate- during full-throttle acceleration runs, there's a weird flat spot in the powerband where it just feels like it's not adding fuel, both when in DSG and manual mode. Above 3500, I can feel the power begin to ramp up, but it's not really there until about 4000rpm. However, if I lift off the pedal as the transmission shifts and then add the pedal back in gradually, the power will build much more rapidly. If I get impatient and stomp on it, then the power fades again and it's a slow acceleration.

I had one day with the friend who put the muscle into this project to pull some logs, and we couldn't see any obvious signs- EGTs never got above 1150, intake charge temp stayed around 47C max, requested PSI is about 35-36 and delivered is generally above 32psi with no obvious fuel cuts like we saw when there was a leak from the fuel rail. Has anyone else ever seen anything like this- where if you lift and gradually add the pedal back in, it will allow much more power to be produced?

I want to check on this with Kerma, but I need to get that coolant pump fixed and practice collecting data before I bug them.

 

[adjat84th]

The interruption to power sounds like you're hitting the EGT limiter, and lifting off briefly allows for a window for it to drop enough to allow you to get full power back when pressing on the pedal again. Also, the EGT limiter can be softened so that when temps do drop it doesn't ramp down and back up so noticeably if that is the other symptom you have going on. It can be really quite obvious when it does that, or can be made to feel almost invisible to the driver.
When you stomp on it and it's slow, sounds like something needs work in the PID controller (been there before too). Kerma knows how to get these to work, sounds like you need to do some logging and get some revisions.

Also..If EGTs didn't get above 1150F, you're logging the wrong sensor. Turbine inlet temp is what you're looking for and with DPF attached surely it will get to 850C or higher (wherever Kerma has it set).
I have a few files that have the proper channels to log if you need/want them. You save them to your "Logs" folder within VCDS and when you go to Advanced Measuring values, simply right click the dropdown in the upper left corner of the small box that opens, load from selected files, choose the file you want to log, and then it pops the correct values in. Grouping them and hitting the turbo button before starting the log allows you to log 6-8 different values at once with really good refresh rates.

 

[Echo_Alpha]

I had assumed I was hitting an EGT limit! Makes sense that it wouldn't look that way if I'm logging the wrong temperature. We were logging Loc. IDE00167, Exhaust Temp 1 Bank 1. The cut doesn't give a big drop, it's just more of a plateau, so from a "driver's feel" perspective they seem to have it pretty dialed in.

I have a few files that have the proper channels to log if you need/want them. You save them to your "Logs" folder within VCDS and when you go to Advanced Measuring values, simply right click the dropdown in the upper left corner of the small box that opens, load from selected files, choose the file you want to log, and then it pops the correct values in. Grouping them and hitting the turbo button before starting the log allows you to log 6-8 different values at once with really good refresh rates.

If you're willing to share them, that would be FANTASTIC! I've been spitballing on the first few runs here (yesterday I logged without using Turbo/UDS grouping and it was a mess. Second set I did, I selected the grouping and all the values went to N/A. I assumed that was because of the grouping, but no actual data got logged, I need to try to see what I did wrong there), for example we took a look at injector deviation just to eliminate that.

 

[adjat84th]

Sent you a message!
Some channels don't allow the grouping and will make everything show N/A once selected. Not sure why it does that.