Crankshaft Position Sensor Failure (CPS) - Please Report to NHTSA

[franklinstower]

Can everyone that has had this failure please report it to the NHTSA https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem#vehicle
The Dealers are idiots and ripping most of us off when we try to get them to replace it under diesel gate warranty. Hopefully if enough of us report it to NHTSA, maybe VWoA will take notice.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Good luck with that. It hasn't been a huge issue from my reading. I did just have one replaced on my daughters 2015 Passat though. It was a pretty inexpensive thing to get done/replaced and didn't disable the car. I doubt the NHTSA will get involved for a 10 year old vehicle with little history of this. More than likely it will be considered a maintenance item as some things will just need replacing at some point.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

Good luck with that. It hasn't been a huge issue from my reading. I did just have one replaced on my daughters 2015 Passat though. It was a pretty inexpensive thing to get done/replaced and didn't disable the car. I doubt the NHTSA will get involved for a 10 year old vehicle with little history of this. More than likely it will be considered a maintenance item as some things will just need replacing at some point.

You should have a look at the “Random Engine Hesitation” thread. Since I posted that, there has been a series of TDI owners reporting that they had the same issue.

Since the problem doesn’t generate a fault code, dealers don’t know what to do about it, or how to even find the problem.

It’s actually easy to diagnose, if you know how, but they don’t know how.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Even so, getting NHTSA involved in cars that are nearly 10 years old and more than likely high mileage will take some doing, in my opinion. There are few of these cars out there now in the big scheme of things and getting them fired up to do anything will take some work. I think the government and VW just want these off the road.

 

[pedroYUL]

...I think the government and VW just want these off the road.

Absolutely!

The way I see it, it is too much effort to force the issue with the NHTSA over a $50 part and maybe 30 min job.

 

[Cuzoe]

Not discouraging people from reporting... but my quick count is less than 10 folks with the problem in that thread. So we're talking about a a small percent of people on this forum. And the forum represents a small percent of owners.

It's a problem to be sure. But I'm inclined to agree it's not a huge one (relative to the number of cars out there). It's for sure a huge problem for the affected person/vehicle.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

Not discouraging people from reporting... but my quick count is less than 10 folks with the problem in that thread. So we're talking about a a small percent of people on this forum. And the forum represents a small percent of owners.

It's a problem to be sure. But I'm inclined to agree it's not a huge one (relative to the number of cars out there). It's for sure a huge problem for the affected person/vehicle.

Likely only a small percentage actually find that thread. Some probably go to an independent mechanic and they fix the problem in ten minutes, and some go to the dealer and get the runaround until they sell the car for scrap and buy a Toyota.

However, I don’t think the NHTSA will care. They’d probably ask VW if it’s a problem, VW would say they’ve had no reports of such a problem from their dealers, and that would be the end of it.

 

[Connorb]

You should have a look at the “Random Engine Hesitation” thread. Since I posted that, there has been a series of TDI owners reporting that they had the same issue.

Since the problem doesn’t generate a fault code, dealers don’t know what to do about it, or how to even find the problem.

It’s actually easy to diagnose, if you know how, but they don’t know how.

I have a 2015 Jetta TDI engine model CVCA, with the same random hesitation described in this forum. Had it checked by independent VW garage-no codes. VW dealer says they never heard of this and they would need to check. I mentioned this forum and asked about CPS changeout. No codes it will be at my cost $200 for the sensor + 5-6 hours labour. OUCH.... Since forum members report 30-60 minutes to change out I checked for the CPS location on my car but cannot see it. Is it possible that the CPS is at another location on the CVCA engine? Any help is appreciated

 

[pedroYUL]

I have a CVCA in a Passat. The location of the CPS is exactly the same as CRUA...have another look, you can do this, it just takes a little patience.

5-6h to change this part is outrageous!

 

[Connorb]

I have a CVCA in a Passat. The location of the CPS is exactly the same as CRUA...have another look, you can do this, it just takes a little patience.

5-6h to change this part is outrageous!

I am not a mechanic but and I do not have a servive manual. The video that I have seen in this forum shows relatively easy access next to, and above the oil filter. There is a bracket which appears to support the upper portion of the oil filter housing on my car. This blocks my access to the location that is shown in the online video and I cannot see that the sensor is located above this bracket. I'm not sure what the bracket actually supports so I have been reluctant to remove it. That's the reason for my question about the CVCA engine.

 

[oilhammer]

It really is unbelievable how incompetent and incredibly dishonest these dealers are.

It is #12 in this picture:

The transmission is obviously not present, but you can at least see the area where it lives, there is a little "window" in the engine block where it passes through.

Book time is 2.9hr, which even that is pretty high... it is MUCH easier to gain access to with the oil filter cap off. So I'd time it with an oil change, and when you can pull the drain plug on the oil filter and let it drain for a LONG time, then take the cap off and shove a rag in the housing to catch any latent drips. Long 5mm Allen and some patience. The little screw is captive, so you needn't worry about dropping it. The new sensor will come with a new screw already in it.

 

[Connorb]

It really is unbelievable how incompetent and incredibly dishonest these dealers are.

It is #12 in this picture:

The transmission is obviously not present, but you can at least see the area where it lives, there is a little "window" in the engine block where it passes through.

Book time is 2.9hr, which even that is pretty high... it is MUCH easier to gain access to with the oil filter cap off. So I'd time it with an oil change, and when you can pull the drain plug on the oil filter and let it drain for a LONG time, then take the cap off and shove a rag in the housing to catch any latent drips. Long 5mm Allen and some patience. The little screw is captive, so you needn't worry about dropping it. The new sensor will come with a new screw already in it.

Thanks. I was obviously looking for it at the wrong place. I've already put the splash guard back on so I'll get back to it a bit later. I'll report back on the results once I've changed it.

 

[pedroYUL]

The sensor has a plug, follow that little wires bundle, and with OH's diagram, you should be able to find it.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

How is the book time 2.9 hours? What are they doing for the remaining 2.4 hours? I don’t expect to pay the mechanical repair rate while they wash and vacuum the car.

Anyway, Connorb, if you’ve seen the video in the other thread, showing where the sensor is, you should be able to find it easily. After removing the oil filter, you may have to stick a smartphone up on there to take a picture of the area, with a flash, and you’ll be able to see it. Or use a mirror. Once you know where it is, it’s very easy to swap it out by feel.

Let me know if you need a link to that video in this thread.

 

[Cuzoe]

How is the book time 2.9 hours? What are they doing for the remaining 2.4 hours? I don’t expect to pay the mechanical repair rate while they wash and vacuum the car.

First I would say if you can do it yourself, great. We have that right we might choose to exercise it.

Second, book time should be separated from cost. The cost is going to be based on the labor rate which can and will vary. If some shop or mechanic had a labor rate of $20/hr it's unlikely people would complain about the book time of 2.9 hours.

Now about the 2.9 hours...

- Let's assume a shop has a bay that they can drive the car into so that they don't have to put it on a lift. And assume the shop requires a spotter for moving vehicles in/out of a bay. Let's call that two technicians for a total of 15 minutes (each), so that's half an hour.

- Let's assume that total mechanic time from the moment they get the work order/assignment until the time the work is checked, your car back together, and the paperwork done and checked is 1 hour. Maybe that's a one man shop doing it all. Or maybe one mechanic doing physical work while someone else starts the paperwork, comes over to check, goes back and finishes the paperwork while tech is wrapping it all up.

- The (book) time billed to the customer isn't altered by splitting the work between techs but your time in the waiting room might be (and that has some value). I think of it like paying to have the floors redone in my house I'm going to pay for X number of labor hours but all things equal I'd rather have a team of 4 do it in 2 days than a team of 2 do it in 4 days.

- Now we consider that a shop has overhead and opportunity cost for doing one job over another. Sure we as car owner don't care but it matters. If I'm running a shop I have to pay the techs either way so the book time is going to account (to an extent) for that. The actual part cost is low so even if the margin is high I'm not making much money there. We know the work doesn't take that long so there's an opportunity cost of not having my techs working jobs that take more time and/or require more/more expensive parts.

- Those are relatively direct costs and then add indirect cost of overhead... The building, insurance, warranty of their work are also costs. Those probably account for another hour of book time.

I have to keep in mind that a good cops with good text will knock it out in less time and they will make more money. But a shop with a slow techs doesn't get to charge you more than book time even if it takes more time (assuming you ask for or can otherwise find out the book time).

I haven't done this job but 2.5 - 3 hours seems reasonable. I wouldn't expect the shop to have a quotable book time on anything takes less than 2 hours anyway. All of those are likely tasks where they will try to upsell you on something else so they can make some money.

Blah blah blah... I always find it interesting that folks compare how long will it take them to do small jobs with what a shop charges. Sure if they tell 20 hours change a clutch you would say they are gouging you. But a shop can't realistically get anything done in under 2 hours of billed labor. Your garage you finish the job, put away your tools then call it a day but that's not what happens in a shop. The car is probably already in the place where you're going to work on it and you don't have any paperwork to do.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

I work as a mechanic and do jobs like this all day long. Moving the car onto the hoist and getting the belly pan and oil filter off would take me ten minutes or less. Swapping the sensor takes five minutes, then ten minutes to put the filter and belly pan back. Then a few minutes at the computer to document what was done. Then park it and do something else.

My local dealer charges $165 per hour. So that would be $478.50 just for labour alone to do this simple job.

2.9 hours is just not reasonable for this task. If they made it 1.5 hours, which gives them an hour to screw around, I wouldn’t even complain, but 2.9 hours…. That is dishonesty.

 

[oilhammer]

That is the published book time, I'm not sure if any other sources say different. That's from Alldata. The person posing in post #8 was claiming the dealer told them 5-6hr.

Sometimes the published labor times are in error, or have some discrepancies, or plain lack of information. It is at the shop's discretion as to how they want to bill it. We used to have access to Mitchell here as well, but the new owners axed that, so all we have now is Alldata.

I would like to see someone swap out a CKP sensor on a CRUA in five minutes, though. Video that please. I think it took me at least that long to do one on an OM642 engine in a Sprinter, and it's right out in the open.

 

[Cuzoe]

Good, efficient, experienced mechanics make money by beating the book time. I'm an aircraft mechanic (sort of, I'm avionics, don't like to get my hands dirty, haha). But I can replace a GIA63W in a Garmin 1000/3000 system, load software/config and ops check in 2 hours. Flat rate (book time) is about 5.

Both I (and my supervisor) know that I can do it much faster so we have the luxury of being able to quote it lower if we know I will be assigned to it. But I know what can be loaded/configured/tested at the same time. I know how to determine beforehand which options a particular aircraft has so I don't have to consult the build sheet or service records.

A less experienced but still fully competent tech might not know all of that. Book time is for the average tech (or more specifically a tech with average knowledge/experience doing the specific task). I'm obviously preaching to the choir hear but we (any mechanics/techs) know you have the "Task/System X" tech that can do everything but is really good with X so you want him/her on those jobs so you can beat the book time and make money.

As I said I've never done the CPS but I can't imagine book time for anything that requires a car on a lift and belly pan off being less than 2 hours. Maybe 2.9 is excessive. If you do the whole job in .5 hours you'll make yourself and/or your shop some good money. Your skill/speed doesn't mean other shops are being dishonest though.

 

[740GLE]

just like a shop feels justified charging $1800 for a timing belt change and another shop charges $1000.

 

[Cuzoe]

If an independent shop charges book time blame the book I guess. Or blame the shop and take your business elsewhere.

No incentive for a dealer service center to charge less than book time. They aren't really competing with independent shops. Call it collusion if we want to be dramatic but a race to the bottom for pricing between dealer service centers is not in their interest. Customers can always go to an independent shop for better pricing and/or better work/service.

Gotta keep in mind that the majority of car owners are not enthusiasts. And when shopping for a used car seeing that all work was done at a dealer is a positive. If I (personally) am buying a vehicle and decide service records matter I (personally) wouldn't have an issue doing some quick research on listed non-dealer shops. I'm probably in the same boat as most of us here. But we (here) are not most customers (for better or worse, haha).

 

[oilhammer]

Pricing is going to vary, because the shop is going to vary. Some guy working in his own garage is going to have far less overhead than someone in a shop that has a bunch of staff to help with things. There's also geographical differences. The costs of living in certain areas are a LOT more than others.

There's one constant: successful places price themselves to what the area and their clientele can and will tolerate. If you are too expensive, you'll have no work. If you are too cheap, you'll run good help away because you won't be able to afford them, and the quality of work will suffer. Striving to be the best is going to net a better job experience for everyone than striving to be the cheapest.

Something that often becomes an issue is that cars depreciate, but the cost associated with servicing them does not. It goes UP, in fact. This is a difficult, but quite obvious, concept to grasp. Yet that phrase "that's more than the car's worth" comes flying out of peoples' mouths quite often. Spending $800 on a three year old car that was $25k new isn't a problem. But that same car, that same job, 20 years later? People sometimes act like you are trying to rob them at gunpoint. Yes, that car now may only be worth $2500. It depreciated. The timing belt kit didn't. The labor costs didn't. The coolant cost didn't. The insurance costs the shop carries didn't. It went up. It ALL went up. Now it's $1000 to do it. And guess what? The car now has covered an additional 300k miles. It's got a few other things that need attention. All of which are also not free.

 

[oilhammer]

Just a note regarding book times:

I just found my very first NCS Jetta (2012) with a leaking evaporator core. Since I've never done one, I went to look up some information on the job, including the labor time. Alldata calls for 2.1hr. So you'd think, must be easy! But the procedure starts with "remove heater/evaporator case", and in order to do that, you start with "remove instrument panel" (the dash). Hmmmm....

If you go to an A5 Jetta, the evaporator time is 9.5hr. And the procedure is largely the same, starts out with the same "remove heater/evaporator case"---"remove instrument panel".

Now I've never done one, but I am pretty sure that any evap core job that requires taking the dash out, and taking the case out, is probably going to take longer than 2.1hr.

I know the NCS is a different car than the A5, but the evaporator core placement and arrangement is fairly identical.

 

[Cuzoe]

In aviation get in discussions with customers all the time where the OEM will give the estimated for hours for a Service Bulletin, Mod, or Task and it does not include any of the preparation, access or required inspection time.

Something like riveting an additional support brackets (just some angle) on the equipment rack, they give 8 hours for the mod.
- They don't mention that you have to remove all the units in equipment rack to get access (CB Panel, Stall Warning Computer, Fuel Quantity and Indication Computer, Flap/Stab Electronic Control Unit, VHF 1, VHF 3, Radio Interface Unit, Transponder 1, Junction Box 1 and 3, Traffic Collision Avoidance System Unit, Position Sensor Electronic Unit... off the top of my head.)
- I should note that to get into the equipment rack in the first place you have to remove the equipment rack covers.
- The bottom screws on the lower cover sit beneath the carpet (or vinyl) flooring in the entry.
- That flooring is one piece through the galley to the cabin so you've got to remove the metal thresholds.
- The threshold has no screws on top (which is aesthetically pleasing), it's secured via an L bracket that runs lengthwise so you've got to un-tuck the carpet on the cabin side and get those screws out.
- All the above done gets you to the inside of the equipment rack, for the outside you to remove the wooden entryway bulkhead.
- To remove that bulkhead you have to remove the vestibule/entryway headliner.
- To remove that you have to remove the main entry way door trim.

Some of these things require two people (like dropping the headliner) but figure you're 20-ish man hours into the job before the 8 hour mod .

You complete the mod, and put everything back together, let's call it 12-14 hours for reassembly.
- Then you get to perform all the ops checks for everything you took it.
- One of those checks is swinging the landing gear.
- Put the aircraft on jacks, electrical power (lucky you this aircraft has electric hydraulic pumps).
- But realistically figure 8 man hours for ops checks.

We account for all this in pre-planning so our quote to the customer for the mod is probably in the neighborhood of 50 hours.
- To be fair the Mod does state 8 hours for the direct task, which is shooting rivets.
- But as you can imagine, customers do not want to hear that noise .

 

[Connorb]

How is the book time 2.9 hours? What are they doing for the remaining 2.4 hours? I don’t expect to pay the mechanical repair rate while they wash and vacuum the car.

Anyway, Connorb, if you’ve seen the video in the other thread, showing where the sensor is, you should be able to find it easily. After removing the oil filter, you may have to stick a smartphone up on there to take a picture of the area, with a flash, and you’ll be able to see it. Or use a mirror. Once you know where it is, it’s very easy to swap it out by feel.

Let me know if you need a link to that video in this thread.

Changed the CPS last Tuesday. Several outings, totaling 250 km, without an incident. Hesitation used to occur at least once and was increasing to several times during previous outings. Purchased the sensor on Amazon for $70. (Walker products). As a weekend “tinkerer” it took this big boy (6.0’,270) 2 hrs lying underneath the car in my driveway. 1/2 hr to get to it, then 1 1/2 hrs to get the sensor out & back in; because of the slight offset, without the appropriate Allen key, and working more or less by feel. Definitely no more than an hour on a proper lift and with the right tools. Thanks to Mike-04GolfTDI for discovering the issue, PedroYUL for info and encouragement and oilhammer for the pictogram showing the location.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

Changed the CPS last Tuesday. Several outings, totaling 250 km, without an incident. Hesitation used to occur at least once and was increasing to several times during previous outings. Purchased the sensor on Amazon for $70. (Walker products). As a weekend “tinkerer” it took this big boy (6.0’,270) 2 hrs lying underneath the car in my driveway. 1/2 hr to get to it, then 1 1/2 hrs to get the sensor out & back in; because of the slight offset, without the appropriate Allen key, and working more or less by feel. Definitely no more than an hour on a proper lift and with the right tools. Thanks to Mike-04GolfTDI for discovering the issue, PedroYUL for info and encouragement and oilhammer for the pictogram showing the location.

I’m glad you managed to fix it. If you don’t routinely work as a mechanic, I think it would be understandable that it would take a couple hours.

Now that you are aware of the issue, isn’t it absurd that VW dealers can’t fix this? They have every possible resource at their disposal, and they can’t figure it out. They don’t even care.

 

[pedroYUL]

Question is why such simple sensor keeps flaking out, car after car?

 

[Connorb]

I’m glad you managed to fix it. If you don’t routinely work as a mechanic, I think it would be understandable that it would take a couple hours.

Now that you are aware of the issue, isn’t it absurd that VW dealers can’t fix this? They have every possible resource at their disposal, and they can’t figure it out. They don’t even care.

My theory is that if VW admit it is a problem, they will have to replace the sensor under the dieselgate warranty. Therefore they hide behind the no code excuse. It also gives them the opportunity to charge for the scan and all the investigative work to try solve the problem. I mentioned this forum to the 2 dealerships I visited and neither seemed interested in the forum's findings. One dealership gave me the ridiculous 5-6 hour time requirement, the other mentioned that it could be the throttle body. Both said if there are no error codes, VW will not reimburse them.

 

[oilhammer]

Question is why such simple sensor keeps flaking out, car after car?

Same could be said for any pattern failure, and trust me there are a LOT of pattern failures. The trick is admitting to it, and putting something in place to fix it.

In this case, the CKP sensor failure does seem odd, because the CVCA/CRUA use the same basic arrangement that first showed up in the BGP, BGQ, and BRM engines halfway through the 2005 model year, and continued with the CBEA, CJAA, CKRA, as well as all the later 2.5s (CBTA, CBUA, BPS, etc.). So it isn't exactly a "new" thing. Yet none of those other engines had this issue.

So what exactly changed for these engines? Or did the supplier for this particular sensor change? They found someone to build them cheaper? The infection of Chinese parts in pretty much all brands of cars has been pretty bad. LOTS of Chinese made stuff is out there now. We see it a lot.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

VW: “If there’s no fault code, we won’t honour the warranty.”

Also VW: “We programmed it not to set a fault code if it fails.”