CR140 Flapper Valve Performance...

[robnitro]

Or maybe the flaps help more egr gasses flow in? From what I learned about EGR, it lowers EGT. So if the EGR is being less effective, it could be causing higher EGT's. The PDs have a restriction- throttle to help EGR flow more.

How are the EGT's in comparison at higher loads?

The rise in EGT is due to the higher soot load coming out of the turbo. It isn't bad for the engine or turbo itself, but I could see it cooking the DPF over time. Also, the increased soot output will cause higher soot load on the DPF, which creates higher back pressure, which will result in higher egts itself. On top of that, the higher soot load on the DPF will cause more frequent regens, which will expose the turbo and DPF to higher temps just from the regens.

Is it an issue? Not sure, but is it something to consider if you plan on keeping your DPF intact and functioning properly for the long haul.

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[bassman5066]

Or maybe the flaps help more egr gasses flow in? From what I learned about EGR, it lowers EGT. So if the EGR is being less effective, it could be causing higher EGT's. The PDs have a restriction- throttle to help EGR flow more.

How are the EGT's in comparison at higher loads?

These CR engines have a throttle in the intake and the exhaust(post NOx cat) to aid in EGR. EGR lowers EGTs by injecting "dead air" into the intake stream. It is considered "dead" because the partially burnt fuel and the near 0 oxygen content. I don't think the intake runner flaps effect EGR efficiency at all, but I could be wrong.

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[storx]

Wot egt seem non effected but highway temps are hotter with it unplugged vs plugged in just cruising...

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[mamock116]

Shouldnt higher EGT's hurt mileage? Is it worth higher EGT's if you are getting an extra 3mpg more?

 

[steve05ram360]

For him it doesnt matter with the dpf gone, since he mentioned soot level is up in the back that would make me think the dpf will have more soot to process thus shortening its lifespan before cleaning

 

[storx]

I'm sure with a tune things would be much better...was just reporting what I seen without a tune change...right now me and mark have both been super busy so not had time to go further...so sorry

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[crpowa]

I found this so interesting that i went ahead and did it to my 2009 jetta, the engine feels much smother, torque comes on a bit earlier, the top end feels about the same, perhaps a tiny bit better almost unoticeable, haven tested the mpg's yet but when i do ill report back. I am at malone stage 2, rawtek dp, and 3" all the way back, degrilled maf AFE pro dry kit, big intercooler and egr deleted fully.

Cheers

 

[jsf350]

nice little mod to do in the future

 

[crpowa]

Well, a week into the mod and all i can say is i love it, ill never go back to stock on this mod, ever. Is so much better down low almost instant accelerator response and much more linear power production, feels as if the engine is bigger. I guess the flappers are for emisions only as the 2014 model will not have them.

 

[bassman5066]

Well, a week into the mod and all i can say is i love it, ill never go back to stock on this mod, ever. Is so much better down low almost instant accelerator response and much more linear power production, feels as if the engine is bigger. I guess the flappers are for emisions only as the 2014 model will not have them.

Did you notice any change in MPGs?

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[808tdi]

I guess the flappers are for emisions only as the 2014 model will not have them.

So those of us with a mk6 could just wait and swap the manifold from the 2014 without having to worry about the holes from removing the flapper valves?

The new Jetta TDI has independent rear suspension and a backup camera....

 

[v8 coupe]

So someone that has actually had the intake off please help me. If I am looking at this correctly the black plastic bit bolts to the aluminum "plenum" which then sandwiches the flap base/plastic between the inlet and the head?

Why couldn't a new now flapper base plate just be made to aid in flow?

 

[kilner]

i did this a long long time ago on my pd170

ther is no performance gains to be had

the only thing that did happen is i lost 5nm of torq the time i run on the dyno after this mod

so if i was you i would not go out of your way to do this and if you want to deflap it just buy a bkd manifold that has no flaps

 

[kilner]

Well with the flap motor unplugged and no change to tune i get much more soot on my back bumper vs when it was plugged in..

that's cause with the flaps closed the engine is acting more like an 8v with increased air speed into the engine for a better mix with the fuel

so if anything the flaps should help low end torq

there is a map in the ecu to control the flaps you could fine tweak that map on a dyno to find the optimal position for open and closed position during acceleration

 

[LNXGUY]

i did this a long long time ago on my pd170
ther is no performance gains to be had
the only thing that did happen is i lost 5nm of torq the time i run on the dyno after this mod
so if i was you i would not go out of your way to do this and if you want to deflap it just buy a bkd manifold that has no flaps

You've got a PD this is a discussion about the CR motor.. Apples/oranges.

 

[kilner]

You've got a PD this is a discussion about the CR motor.. Apples/oranges.

best of luck then

 

[808tdi]

Sooooo I happened along this video on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_c_iXBWYXg&list=PL3078E4B98E69EE18

@ 1:15 minutes they talk about the use of the flapper valves in the CR TDI

 

[storx]

So someone that has actually had the intake off please help me. If I am looking at this correctly the black plastic bit bolts to the aluminum "plenum" which then sandwiches the flap base/plastic between the inlet and the head?

Why couldn't a new now flapper base plate just be made to aid in flow?

The reason the part between the engine and intake manifold is plastic is to reduce heatsoak from the engine cylinder head/block...Also just removing the rod and reinserting the small plastic guides between cylinders is all is needed.. and just bolt the motor back on the side of the intake or create your own plate..

Mark is working on more tuning involved with the flapper motor with me, We are working on it but just very busy with life to make it #1 priority right now.. i have had mine unplugged for months now with nothing ill happening.. just FYI.. when you receive tuning involving EGR deletes or DPF deletes this sensor is not turned off but is not reported as a FIX ME NOW issue thus not showing up as a check engine light.. Mark is working on tuning to with more precise sensor management.... as these new ECU have a lot of security that has to be reprogrammed to create changes... compared to old ones.. Last i talked to him he said he had over 60 hours into the programming to better things with the flapper removed..

 

[mamock116]

if the flapper is removed but the sensor is still plugged in and functioning do you think there will be a CEL? I don't have a malone tune so my sensor is still active.

 

[disco biscuit]

I wish it was possible to utilize the system to better low end tq. I understand the restrictions and theory but is it really proven that if property tuned this variable vortex flap deal might out perform one without. Maybe if opened up more via increased flap size...etc. Just asking. And also no implications toward malone...just saying, seems he's obviously studying it.

Has anyone seen whether this system is being used on the new cr?

 

[bassman5066]

I wish it was possible to utilize the system to better low end tq. I understand the restrictions and theory but is it really proven that if property tuned this variable vortex flap deal might out perform one without. Maybe if opened up more via increased flap size...etc. Just asking. And also no implications toward malone...just saying, seems he's obviously studying it.

Has anyone seen whether this system is being used on the new cr?

No it is not on the newer version of the CR. The problem with using it from a performance perspective is the ports in the head. These are not variable length runners, they close of an intake port on each cyl to induce swirl. The port that stays open all the time is called the "swirl chamber" and is designed in the head to induce swirl when getting fed with air by itself. Swirl is great from an emissions perspective (complete burn, less NOx, all that jazz) but it is not the same as varitable length runners at all.

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[crpowa]

Well, a few months into the flapper valve mod, and Ill never go back the way it was before. Mpgs have better in the 2-3+ range, power does come on quicker, , and since I have a egr delete kit, it smells quite a bit less. I dont know if it smells less from the flapper mod or from the egr delete as I did them both at the same time but the improvement is noticeable even to my car iliterate wife. which beleive me its saying a lot!

 

[struikie]

Well, a few months into the flapper valve mod, and Ill never go back the way it was before. Mpgs have better in the 2-3+ range, power does come on quicker, , and since I have a egr delete kit, it smells quite a bit less. I dont know if it smells less from the flapper mod or from the egr delete as I did them both at the same time but the improvement is noticeable even to my car iliterate wife. which beleive me its saying a lot!

what mods do you have on your car ?

JW

 

[03_01_TDI]

Flappers would act like a gasser throttle body. Creating a parasitic engine vacuum under light loads. I could see that accounting for 2-3mpgs. With near zero effect at wot.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Sooooo I happened along this video on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_c_iXBWYXg&list=PL3078E4B98E69EE18

@ 1:15 minutes they talk about the use of the flapper valves in the CR TDI

Sounds like the flapper is used to close down intake air and force the engine to suck in more EGR.

Probably not the main goal of these flappers, looks like the main goal is to create a swirl for combustion chamber.

 

[robnitro]

I'm all for EGR in helping warmup times and also help cold combustion be warmer... it helps a lot.

However, to throttle the intake to suck more EGR in is just making the engine waste power.

 

[Rub87]

Sounds like the flapper is used to close down intake air and force the engine to suck in more EGR.

Dude, open your eyes.. the swrils flappers are there to create more swirl in the combustion chamber/cylinder at very light loads/massflows. has nothing to do at all with sucking more or less egr

the throttle valve at the intake manifold could be used to suck more egr if the air mass setpoint would not be reached with egr valve fully open (normally never the case). the throttle is used at engine shut off, and in low O2 dpf regeneration mode.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Dude, open your eyes.. the swrils flappers are there to create more swirl in the combustion chamber/cylinder at very light loads/massflows. has nothing to do at all with sucking more or less egr

the throttle valve at the intake manifold could be used to suck more egr if the air mass setpoint would not be reached with egr valve fully open (normally never the case). the throttle is used at engine shut off, and in low O2 dpf regeneration mode.

Dude, open your eyes. The flaps close down. This creates a vacuum pull which improves the swirl. This vacuum is called a pumping loss. Pumping loss can account for an easy 3mpg loss on the cr-tdi.

Pumping losses are caused by the way power output from a petrol "Otto" engine is regulated. It is regulated by controlling, or rather constricting airflow to the engine. This constriction of airflow creates partial vacuum (low pressure) in the inlet manifold. Maintaining this "low pressure" in the inlet manifold wastes energy.

One reason for diesel "Otto"-engines being more effective than the corresponding petrol engines is because there is no pumping loss in a diesel as power is regulated by injecting less fuel into the cylinders and not by choking the airflow to the cylinders.

Also,dude, watch the video link from VW. It clearly states this flapper is used to draw in cool egr.

 

[Rub87]

Dude, open your eyes. The flaps close down. This creates a vacuum pull which improves the swirl. This vacuum is called a pumping loss.



Also,dude, watch the video link from VW. It clearly states this flapper is used to draw in cool egr.

Didnt see the video, but the flap you are talking about are definately not the swirl flap where this whole topic is about

 

[bassman5066]

Didnt see the video, but the flap you are talking about are definately not the swirl flap where this whole topic is about

Yea you guys are talking about 2 different flaps. The "throttle body" is connected to the EGR valve and thats the flapper that is made to create a vaccum to pull in EGR easier. That is certainly a pumping loss and that combined with the exhaust flapper (made to create positive pressure to push LP EGR gasses back to the intake) it creates quite the hesitation when going from part to full throttle because you are waiting for those flappers to reopen.

The intake flappers (note the plural) are there to induce swirl (the topic of this thread) by closing off the "fill port" in the head so air only flows into the "swirl port", basically varying between an 8v and 16v with 2 different port designs with different design requirements (one is shaped so that induces swirl and the other is simply there to fill the combustion chamber with as much air as possible). The flappers are only closed during low RPM part loaf operation when the volume of air entering the cylinder is so low that not enough swirl occurs, creating NOx. Thats what these flapppers are all about. NOx at low RPMs.

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