CR140 Flapper Valve Performance...

[storx]

well today i took a bunch of logs with it plugged in vs with it unplugged and sent them to Mark Malone. I looked over the logs and the data was very interesting. I know this data will probably be different on a stock turbo setup but for a big turbo setup this was the findings. I will post some of the graphs once Mark looks over them and says i can. There is interesting difference between MAP values vs Boost Gauge Values with the boost gauge tapped into the manifold after the MAP sensor but before reaching the flapper assembly.

All logs where done on tune that was tailored around the flaps plugged in

Things that were different.
1) from 0-2000rpms there was a dramatic difference in boost response slowing onset
2) from 2600rpms to redline the graphs were basicly the same
3) from 2000rpms to 2600rpms the log with no flap motor had higher boost/ quicker onset slightly ( expect that when the flap motor is plugged in this is when the motor opens the valve and the disturbance in airflow causes the boost to dip slightly)
4) the tune was set to peak 31psi and the log with the flap valve plugged in peaked 31psi and held to red line.
5) the same tune set to peak 31psi but when the flap valve unplugged the peak power hit 28 and fluctuated between 27/28 to red line.
6) if i am understanding the MAF values correctly (NO PRO ON VCDS) the measurements where the exact same from 2600rpms to redline on the readings with only difference from 0-2600rpms.

So if i am reading all this correctly the engine consumed the same measurement of air from 2600 to redline but required less psi to reach these values with identical spool over rpms compared after 2600rpms

With the MAP values showing identical on the VCDS on both with and without the flapper valve plugged in from 2600+, but when the flaps unplugged the intake manifold values are lower in PSI makes me think the valves are really causing a pressure bottleneck

I am waiting on email back from Mark, But i am probably thinking with some adjustments.. the tune can be adjusted to compensate for the lagg in spool down low from the flap...

 

[unclesfunnyonions]

Good stuff mate, I hope this translates across to the PPD engines.


Alex.

 

[jsrmonster]

Egr0 and flap0 have been standard issue for many years on all high-output (off-road) RC tunes on Vw MB and CRD's. nothing new here. Eliminates lag, improves FE (less smoke on tip in) and gives quicker spool (more power).

No need to remove Hw. Just set duty cycles to zero in all instances.
Jeff ;-))

 

[mamock116]

there be a giant hole on the end.. unless you leave the motor bolted in place to prevent a leak

Yea I was going to bolt the motor back up (that is what I had to do on my Mazda). Since I have stock hardware I am not worried about getting a tune to help with the "lag" down low. How hard is pulling that part of the intake manifold off? Is it just a few bolts and it comes right out?

 

[storx]

Egr0 and flap0 have been standard issue for many years on all high-output (off-road) RC tunes on Vw MB and CRD's. nothing new here. Eliminates lag, improves FE (less smoke on tip in) and gives quicker spool (more power).

No need to remove Hw. Just set duty cycles to zero in all instances.
Jeff ;-))

jeff, so you been working on this already? or playing around with it.... i was interested in how your car is setup based on how you spoke of it in the forum post to Indigo...

 

[DZLmk6]

Here is a quick little half ass "how to" . Its so easy that if you couldn't figure this out then you do not need to be doing this mod anyways :


Unbolt the flap motor:

Unbolt and split plastic part from manifold:

Remove little C clip with screw driver or knife:

Pull linkage out:

Carefully remove flaps by sliding them upwards out of the plastic:

Now remove the plastic pieces from the flap rod. There isn't really a way to do it without ruining the flaps, but you won't be using those again anyway! I just tore the flaps off and slid the plastic pieces off one end of the rod:

Place the pieces into their original places :

Now bolt it back onto the manifold and place the gasket back in place:

Do not forget to fill the hole on the side where the flap linkage went into! An easy way would be to just fit the linkage back in. If you are not tuned you may want to bolt the motor back on and keep it plugged in just so you will not throw a CEL. Mine throws the CEL (not tuned) and Storx has not (tuned) so maybe a tune does take care of that. Or you could easily tap it and run a bolt through the hole.

Also it seems like it would be a good Idea fill the empty holes where the flap rod used to go through. There is a large cavity behind the holes and I would just be more comfortable not having air run through there. Maybe not necessary but it would be nice. I think an easy way to do it would be to remove the plastic inserts (pictured in the 6th pic from the top) and tap them. Then run a small bolt through them from the back side. That way in the unlikely event that it did want to come out ,it would just fall into the cavity behind it instead of into your intake. The bolt head would keep it from being able to go out the other way.
Another member on here is asking his machinist if he may be able to make some new aluminum inserts without any holes. So maybe that will be another option. We will see

 

[TheDIstance]

Looks easy enough...so when does it go on your car so we can see the results?

 

[LNXGUY]

Nice HOWTO, looking forward to the results as well. Might do this on my parents '09 if they can squeak a few more MPG's out of it.

 

[2STROKECORKY]

Very easy to do on the above photod manifold, a little more involved on the older aluminium one from 06 to 09

 

[nikhsub1]

Well then buying a new manifold seems silly now since it is so easy to do... I will wait reports on how the car feels after the mod.

 

[DZLmk6]

It might be a few weeks before I put it on the car. I'll wait to hear back about the machined inserts. I guess while I've got it off I'll tap for a boost gauge and perdy the manifold up a little

 

[mamock116]

I'm down for buying some inserts. I wonder why one car throws codes and the other doesn't. I didn't think Storx has his tuned to not throw codes for this.

 

[DZLmk6]

I'm down for buying some inserts. I wonder why one car throws codes and the other doesn't. I didn't think Storx has his tuned to not throw codes for this.

Beats me man, I only have my car and his car to compare though. It may differ with other peoples. Maybe the Malone tune in general some how make it not throw the code (not sure why that would be though) or maybe my car just decided to throw the code where as another stock one may not. Someone with more knowledge on this kind of stuff may have a better idea

 

[Jeffbucc]

I'll try it tonight with my stage 2 tune and see if it throws a code. If not, I'll remove the flaps.

 

[2STROKECORKY]

If you plug in the motor somewhere in the engine bay then it can't throw a code due to the motor still functioning, it can only sense pulse, and not pressure, so it can't tell you have removed the rod.
I've done a few now for different people and not seen a mil light or any codes.

You will be best to get a remap to see the best from this mod

 

[Jeffbucc]

But benefits can be had without remapping correct? Or is the low power loss not worth the gains farther in the powerband/mileage.

 

[mamock116]

If you plug in the motor somewhere in the engine bay then it can't throw a code due to the motor still functioning, it can only sense pulse, and not pressure, so it can't tell you have removed the rod.
I've done a few now for different people and not seen a mil light or any codes.

You will be best to get a remap to see the best from this mod

Sweet deal. Ill do this mod this week sometime. I have Revo so I cant tune for the mod but I am sure this will help.

 

[storx]

If you plug in the motor somewhere in the engine bay then it can't throw a code due to the motor still functioning, it can only sense pulse, and not pressure, so it can't tell you have removed the rod.
I've done a few now for different people and not seen a mil light or any codes.

You will be best to get a remap to see the best from this mod

I have had mine unplugged completely for weeks.. and the tune wasnt tuned to remove it..

 

[mamock116]

So I tried to do this tonight but some of the bolts are under what looks like the fuel rail. How do I go about getting the fuel rail off without getting fuel everywhere?

 

[bassman5066]

So I tried to do this tonight but some of the bolts are under what looks like the fuel rail. How do I go about getting the fuel rail off without getting fuel everywhere?

That's where I stopped and realized it wouldn't be as easy as I thought. There's lots of fuel in that rail...

Sent from my Bosch Motronic ECM via VCDS Version 1.9LVE

 

[j3tdi]

Yea it wasn't as fun as I thought it would be!

Had to pull glow plug wires/injector plugs off and out of the way, and disconnect the high pressure lines from the rail. Wasn't as much fuel as I thought there'd be.. but I had some clean rags laid down to soak it all up. Bought a crows foot set to be able to torque the lines back up as well.

 

[Dirtracr95]

Looks like I'll have to buy a spare intake to mod. Maybe drill and tap for a direct port setup at the same time.

 

[JSWTDI09]

That's where I stopped and realized it wouldn't be as easy as I thought. There's lots of fuel in that rail...

The quantity of fuel in the fuel rail is not the biggest problem. The fuel in the fuel rail is under considerable pressure (at least 10 BAR - about 150 psi) and maybe more. Opening the fuel rail (to relieve the pressure) must be done carefully to prevent damage and/or injury.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[storx]

The quantity of fuel in the fuel rail is not the biggest problem. The fuel in the fuel rail is under considerable pressure (at least 10 BAR - about 150 psi) and maybe more. Opening the fuel rail (to relieve the pressure) must be done carefully to prevent damage and/or injury.

Have Fun!

Don

if i am not mistaken, the rail bleeds off pressure through the return of the injection pump system.. so there is mild pressure if i recall reading the manual correctly.. something like 41psi only while off.

 

[mamock116]

Anyone up for doing a walkthrough on getting the fuel rail out of the way?

 

[JSWTDI09]

if i am not mistaken, the rail bleeds off pressure through the return of the injection pump system.. so there is mild pressure if i recall reading the manual correctly.. something like 41psi only while off.

The self-study guide states that there is a pressure retention valve on that return line that maintains a minimum pressure of 10BAR (147PSI) in the fuel rail. It states that our piezo injectors do not fire properly if the rail pressure drops below this 10BAR threshold. Without this pressure retention valve, you would have to crank the engine until the HPFP got the rail pressure high enough for the injectors to fire correctly every time you started the engine.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[bassman5066]

The self-study guide states that there is a pressure retention valve on that return line that maintains a minimum pressure of 10BAR (147PSI) in the fuel rail. It states that our piezo injectors do not fire properly if the rail pressure drops below this 10BAR threshold. Without this pressure retention valve, you would have to crank the engine until the HPFP got the rail pressure high enough for the injectors to fire correctly every time you started the engine.

Have Fun!

Don

Shouldn't be too hard. Just have to break it loose knowing there is that kind of pressure behind it. There's not much volume to sustain that pressure once you open it up. As for filling after, I think you should be able to cycle the tank and aux pumps like you would while replacing a fuel filter to at least fill the rail with fuel. Once the system is filled to the rail, the HPFP shouldn't have a problem making pressure and getting air out within a few rotations of the motor.

Sent from my Bosch Motronic ECM via VCDS Version 1.9LVE

 

[bassman5066]

Or maybe we could even cycle the pressure relief/regulator valve with VCDS until the pressure drops to a more workable level. I believe the valve is electronic, correct? I think there is one regulation valve in the HPFP and one in the rail and it uses both to regulate rail pressureb between 4000 and 22000 psi IIRC from the self study guide.

Sent from my Bosch Motronic ECM via VCDS Version 1.9LVE

 

[2STROKECORKY]

I did not remove or dismantle any of the fuel system if that helps

 

[bassman5066]

I did not remove or dismantle any of the fuel system if that helps

How did you remove the triple squares on the rear side of the manifold with the rail in the way?

Sent from my Bosch Motronic ECM via VCDS Version 1.9LVE