CR OBDII tune swapping?

[JasonG]

I'm a little behind this year.
Correct me if I'm wrong, all CR engines can now be tuned through the obd port?
If so, can a car that runs a dpf delete reinstall the dpf, back flash, and pass inspection then revert after?
Years back we kept a stock v6 at my brothers speed shop.
Guys would borrow it for a day or so..........

 

[Enabled]

I'm a little behind this year.
Correct me if I'm wrong, all CR engines can now be tuned through the obd port?
If so, can a car that runs a dpf delete reinstall the dpf, back flash, and pass inspection then revert after?
Years back we kept a stock v6 at my brothers speed shop.
Guys would borrow it for a day or so..........

That piece of "news" that CR engines can be flashed through OBD is a bit of a misleading statement.

First, you need an original KESS, which is a $4500 system. And then you may still run into issues.

 

[JSWTDI09]

What you propose is possible - in theory. However, in practice you would need special tools (as stated above) plus, it is a lot of work to replace an exhaust system on an annual basis. Most people would find it to be too much effort for the result. If you have a garage with a lift and all the other tools required to swap the entire exhaust system, then you can think about the ECU programming.

As I understand it (and I could be wrong), once the ECU is tuned the first time, it can be easily re-tuned through the ODBII port with more standard tools. It is only the first tune that requires the expensive "tool" to crack (or bypass) the security "lock" that the factory programming includes.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[Enabled]

What you propose is possible - in theory. However, in practice you would need special tools (as stated above) plus, it is a lot of work to replace an exhaust system on an annual basis. Most people would find it to be too much effort for the result. If you have a garage with a lift and all the other tools required to swap the entire exhaust system, then you can think about the ECU programming.

As I understand it (and I could be wrong), once the ECU is tuned the first time, it can be easily re-tuned through the ODBII port with more standard tools. It is only the first tune that requires the expensive "tool" to crack (or bypass) the security "lock" that the factory programming includes.

Have Fun!

Don

That is IF the tuner disabled the "tuner protection" in the first tune. If the tuner wants to block everyone and their ebay flasher cable from accessing the tune, then they can just leave the tuner protection on to make it harder.

 

[JSWTDI09]

That is IF the tuner disabled the "tuner protection" in the first tune. If the tuner wants to block everyone and their ebay flasher cable from accessing the tune, then they can just leave the tuner protection on to make it harder.

That is certainly possible. I am not a tuner and I know nothing about the specifics of what they do. I think that I understand the basics of what they do, but I am clueless about any specifics of the hardware or software.

All that I know, for sure, is that before they could tune these cars through the ODBII port, the ECU had to be removed and "bench tuned". Once this was done once the car could then be re-tuned through the ODBII port as often as desired. How tuners protect their intellectual property is unknown to me.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[JasonG]

Does anyone know if Malone is locking them down? Andrew ?
It only takes a few hours to do a dpf, I've worked all night to do an engine swap

 

[JSWTDI09]

Does anyone know if Malone is locking them down? Andrew ?
It only takes a few hours to do a dpf, I've worked all night to do an engine swap

I would ask this question directly to Malone tuning. One of their dealers will get back to you. Let us know what they say. Actually, they might not tell you how they "lock down" their tunes. The real question to ask them has more to do with your OP. Ask them if it is possible for an end user (you) to switch back and forth between the Malone tune and a stock tune. This way, you are not asking for "trade secrets", you are only asking if they can sell you an ODBII tune "box" that can do what you wish. Explain what you want to do, they might be willing and able to help you.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[vwmikel]

That is IF the tuner disabled the "tuner protection" in the first tune. If the tuner wants to block everyone and their ebay flasher cable from accessing the tune, then they can just leave the tuner protection on to make it harder.

There are some tools which offer OBD read/write capability without a prior patch, but I have yet to hear of one that wasn't doing a virtual read on protected ECU's. What that means is that it looks up the software version and compares it to a list of original files which it can then flash in an encrypted format to get around the tuning protection. But, if what was in there doesn't match the file chosen from the server (as in, if it was modified in some way) you could brick the ECU. The safest way, unfortunately, is still to do a boot mode unlock in the IROM. This is the kind of situation where it's usually best to let someone who is experienced deal with it.

BTW - I don't think most of the ebay tools will work on the US EDC17 at all.

 

[JasonG]

I guess I'm curious if they could be easily swapped, like bullydog or edge times.
I'm more than willing to pay Malone for his work, I just want the swap ability.

 

[nayr]

if your putting the DPF in just to pass emissions why bother reflashing it? its simply not going to trigger a regen, and might hit EGT limit.. but wont do any harm as long as you dont rack up the miles before putting the straight pipe back on, and even then its only doing harm to your DPF that you dont really care about having other than for looks every once and a while.

You should still pass emissions with the Mallone tune, the problem being the visual inspection for the DPF.. they just look to see that its there, not that it functions.

For me its an inspection once every 3 years, I am thinking of installing a delete and just re-installing it temporarily IF they notice its not there.. from what I've seen its all v-band clamps so its not that big of a deal to swap out, just time consuming.

 

[JasonG]

if your putting the DPF in just to pass emissions why bother reflashing it? its simply not going to trigger a regen, and might hit EGT limit.. but wont do any harm as long as you dont rack up the miles before putting the straight pipe back on, and even then its only doing harm to your DPF that you dont really care about having other than for looks every once and a while.

You should still pass emissions with the Mallone tune, the problem being the visual inspection for the DPF.. they just look to see that its there, not that it functions.

For me its an inspection once every 3 years, I am thinking of installing a delete and just re-installing it temporarily IF they notice its not there.. from what I've seen its all v-band clamps so its not that big of a deal to swap out, just time consuming.

Except the dpf delete tune does not pass the "readiness set" part of the obd plug in test.

 

[nayr]

are you sure about that? Ask Malone about it, they dont check readyness here but my MKIV does not have any remaining emissions crap on it and it shows it passes readyness..

I just had to inform the tuner all that I had removed so he would delete them correctly in the software.. many items didnt throw a CEL but still threw codes that went away after a retune, and to my surprise everything showed ready a few hundred miles later.. even without a SAI/Post Cat o2/Canister

 

[JasonG]

He has to have them "not ready" or it would bypass carb/epa/b.s. and be a street legal delete.
Deletes are only for off road or non smog areas.

 

[BuzzKen]

Malone Tuning will have no active involvement in setting readiness monitors or helping pass emissions testing. Delete tunes are for off-road use only.

 

[moivw]

Why don t you simply unplug a wg hose, temperature sensor, maf or somthing that will make it run on some limp mode (low boost low iq)..

 

[nayr]

ah that sucks, glad they dont check readiness status here.. forgot they did that.

I know that I can buy a tune loader from Mallone for my ALH and swap between 3 tunes at my leasure, one being the original tune.. Dunno bout the CR140, when I bought the car they had to crack the ecu housing to give it the initial tune, but not followup tunes.. so mabye that is an option you can arrange directly.

 

[turbobrick240]

Another option would be to acquire a spare ecu with stock tune that could be swapped back and forth. You might need to have the immobilizer disabled on the spare ecu.

 

[named tintin]

There are some tools which offer OBD read/write capability without a prior patch, but I have yet to hear of one that wasn't doing a virtual read on protected ECU's. What that means is that it looks up the software version and compares it to a list of original files which it can then flash in an encrypted format to get around the tuning protection. But, if what was in there doesn't match the file chosen from the server (as in, if it was modified in some way) you could brick the ECU. The safest way, unfortunately, is still to do a boot mode unlock in the IROM. This is the kind of situation where it's usually best to let someone who is experienced deal with it.

BTW - I don't think most of the ebay tools will work on the US EDC17 at all.

Mike, I'm in the process of buying a Magrpo x17 as I'm bored of opening ECU each time to do a tune. Have had several long discution with them, and this is not what they told me, it can do actual read, I was very specific about this and told them several time that I don't want to be dissapointed after the purchase to discover that in fact it can only do virtual, so at this point I can't imagine they lied me only to sell me a tool, anyway, they do have a return program but can be complicated.

Cheap ebay tool can obd read (partial read) us/can edc17 but can't write unless obd is unlocked with an original tool, I have tested them, so they are useless at some point, except one of them that can bench read/write. Beware that those tool can easily brick the ECU if your not familiar with tuning.

 

[KERMA]

Mike, I'm in the process of buying a Magrpo x17 as I'm bored of opening ECU each time to do a tune. Have had several long discution with them, and this is not what they told me, it can do actual read, I was very specific about this and told them several time that I don't want to be dissapointed after the purchase to discover that in fact it can only do virtual, so at this point I can't imagine they lied me only to sell me a tool, anyway, they do have a return program but can be complicated.

Cheap ebay tool can obd read (partial read) us/can edc17 but can't write unless obd is unlocked with an original tool, I have tested them, so they are useless at some point, except one of them that can bench read/write. Beware that those tool can easily brick the ECU if your not familiar with tuning.

martin please be aware that the USA market EDC17CP14 are different from what they have in Europe. It could be working perfectly over there but not here. For example USA 2012+ has CP14 with GPT and this does not exist in Europe. Make sure they have tested it on an actual car with CJAA from this market.

 

[MoserNH]

Swapping a spare ecu

Another option would be to acquire a spare ecu with stock tune that could be swapped back and forth. You might need to have the immobilizer disabled on the spare ecu.

Hello, New to the TDICLUB, have been viewing importants facts for a long time. I'm trying to wrap my head about the mechanics so-to-speak with regards to the vehicle's ECU.

I like the quote/concept above of having a spare sitting on the shelf but don't quite understand if that is a valid plug & play concept or the down the line ramifications. I have viewed and read the steps in pulling the ECU. I have a couple of questions that perhaps someone technically skilled can answer.

(1) If I purchased a used ECU, matching the same PN as the one currently in the vehicle + ensuring the Stock Software on the ECU is up-to-date, can I simply plug & play.

(2) Say the used ECU is not up-to-date, when an ECU is "flashed or Tuned" by a third party does it basically re-write over the entire existing software code, or, does it somehow augment official VW Code that may be Read-Only. Just guessing here.......

(3) The word "Immobilizer" keeps popping-up, I've read about the system as a whole but don't quite understand the reach into the ECU.

Any comments about a Spare Plug & Play Colncept would be appreciated

THANK YOU !!

 

[KERMA]

Hello, New to the TDICLUB, have been viewing importants facts for a long time. I'm trying to wrap my head about the mechanics so-to-speak with regards to the vehicle's ECU.

I like the quote/concept above of having a spare sitting on the shelf but don't quite understand if that is a valid plug & play concept or the down the line ramifications. I have viewed and read the steps in pulling the ECU. I have a couple of questions that perhaps someone technically skilled can answer.

(1) If I purchased a used ECU, matching the same PN as the one currently in the vehicle + ensuring the Stock Software on the ECU is up-to-date, can I simply plug & play.

(2) Say the used ECU is not up-to-date, when an ECU is "flashed or Tuned" by a third party does it basically re-write over the entire existing software code, or, does it somehow augment official VW Code that may be Read-Only. Just guessing here.......

(3) The word "Immobilizer" keeps popping-up, I've read about the system as a whole but don't quite understand the reach into the ECU.

Any comments about a Spare Plug & Play Colncept would be appreciated

THANK YOU !!

1) no. the anti-theft system (also known as the immobilizer) will disable the car after 2 seconds of starting the car.

2) The memory of the ecu is split into several sections. For our discussion, there are 2 of relevance, the data area and the instruction area. Data contains the calibration parameters, consisting of data tables and constants. The instructions are the execution code which has the computer operating system and the actual "if then next or and" type instructions and operating functions. Tuning does not change code in the instruction area of the ecu. It changes calibration parameters, in the data part of the ecu. Kind of like twisting a screw on a carburetor or rotating your distributor cap. Only it is done with different tools (software). There are parts of the ecu that are read-only but they are not relevant to the tuning process per se. So to answer your specific question, a (relatively) small part of the data in the data area of the ecu is overwritten with different values.

3) Immobilizer is the car's anti-theft system. It works by matching a RFID chip in the key fob to the value in the dashboard. It does this when you first start the car. If the value in the key does _not_ match what's stored in the instrument cluster, the instrument cluster sends a signal to the ecu to shut off the engine. Likewise, if the key matches the stored value, the car is allowed to run. "Immobilizer delete" changes some values in the ECU to tell it to ignore the instrument cluster's signal to shut off. This allows you to use a different, "unmatched" ecu instead of the one that came with the car.

4) (added by me) swapping a different ecu for permanent use in your EDC17 car (common rail car) will "work (so to speak) in that it will run the car. It is NOT a perfect solution because the ecu adapts to the car over time and the car will not run perfectly with a different ecu. It is ok for a temporary solution- like a loaner while yours is being tuned for example. But I would not run it that way long term.

 

[MoserNH]

KERMA,

THANKS FOR THE INFORMATIVE STRAIGHT-FORWARD RESPONSE, GOOD INFO……I do have a couple of follow-on statements/questions with what you wrote if I may………..

OK, Didn’t understand within the ECU’s Software it synchs with the overall system specific to a vehicle’s VIN (assigned at the factory) therefore if everything doesn’t match, SHUT DOWN Occurs. Also, learned if an Immobilizer Delete tune is done it allows an unmatched ECU to be used. So-far-so-good…….. Is the Factory Assigned Immobilizer Data In an area on the ECU that can be written over or is it read only? Say In the case a body shop was doing a salvage rebuild where the ECU was damaged, could they take a used ECU pulled from another vehicle into an “Authorized VW Dealer” and they could re-burn the Factory Immobilizer info to match the vehicle’s VIN, or, must the ECU be purchased new from the factory.


ECU Adapts Over Time – OK, this needs a mind-meld, where is Spock when I need him. So with the stock software version I have running inside the matched VIN ECU, over time the performance could degrade to a point requiring a refresh to the software. I’ve read allot of people on-line saying they weren’t going to let VW touch their ECU ever again. With what you wrote they’ll have no choice down the line so in theory a Spare ECU with a frozen Software Version would become useless.

 

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4) (added by me) swapping a different ecu for permanent use in your EDC17 car (common rail car) will "work (so to speak) in that it will run the car. It is NOT a perfect solution because the ecu adapts to the car over time and the car will not run perfectly with a different ecu. It is ok for a temporary solution- like a loaner while yours is being tuned for example. But I would not run it that way long term.

So the newer TDI's started having running adaptations as well, kind of like gasoline cars? I'm not fully sure, but it seems that ALH has no mechanism for adjusting adaptations by itself based on how it is running.

I do a bit of gasoline BMW tuning (on my cars), and there are very many adaptation values that have to be accounted for, and so it adds quite a bit of complexity to tuning.


But I have noticed that starting with EDC16 TDIs there are oxygen sensors involved, so it makes sense.

 

[Enabled]

And no, the software does not degrade... Ever. That is not the reason for software updates from the dealer. They add 'fixes' in the programming and calibration code here and there as needed (EPA, etc)

Adaptations are simply learned values from sensors that may deviate from the tuning, due to different environmental conditions, maintenance, or engine condition.

 

[Enabled]

And the dealer cannot reset used ECU immobilizer. A tuner/electronics expert can.

 

[KERMA]

So the newer TDI's started having running adaptations as well, kind of like gasoline cars? I'm not fully sure, but it seems that ALH has no mechanism for adjusting adaptations by itself based on how it is running.

Yes, all of them can be reset using VCDS. The important difference is the injectors IMA/IVA values. You can reset them to whatever value is on the injector, but that is the value when the injector is NEW. The ECU adjusts the stored eeprom value for injector wear based on a number of variables, so it's really a dynamic adaptation that can't be 100% reproduced on an ecu swap. Now if you could transplant the entire eeprom to a different ecu maybe, but the OTP data is different (and actually the eeprom has unique values related to the OTP in the flash) so the ecu will throw codes and be unhappy if you try an old-style clone. There are numerous encrypted checksums in the eeprom so it's a bit more complicated than it used to be. I can do basic immo off stuff but the guy to ask for more complex stuff regarding these eeprom is "jetta ,97".