CR engine HPFP analysis

[MichaelB]

The thing they stick in the fuel fill neck to prohibit the use of a non-diesel nozzle, no idea how it is supposed to work, as they also sell a funnel to be able to defeat it since it often will not allow the car to be fueled up even with diesel.

Wow!!!!!!!!! Never had a situation where the station didn't have a nozzle that would fit through that protection device. If you have to use the funnel (which I do carry in my trunk) you would be needing fuel like right now with no other choice as there are many more stations with appropriate nozzles. I think the protection it offers far outweighs the hate for it that is preached on this forum. Also if you remove it and introduce gasoline into the car and it fails your on your own. What's the big deal?

 

[oilhammer]

I think the 'hate' comes from the fact that a lot of people could not fuel up at the place(s) they had been fueling up prior to its installation.

I do not speak from experience myself, nor have I had anyone come in here at our shop with any issues that I was told about.

The couple CR TDIs I have fueled up had no problems.

 

[RabbitGTI]

Speaking of failsafe devices, does anyone still make a filter to put just downstream of the HPFP and catch the shrapnel? If not, can such a thing be Gomered up.

 

[MichaelB]

I think the 'hate' comes from the fact that a lot of people could not fuel up at the place(s) they had been fueling up prior to its installation.

I do not speak from experience myself, nor have I had anyone come in here at our shop with any issues that I was told about.

The couple CR TDIs I have fueled up had no problems.

Sounds like "a lot of people" fed you a line of BS.

 

[RabbitGTI]

Is there any year/model that is less likely to have the HPFP grenade? This has probably been covered, but I have not kept up with it. Thanks.

 

[bizzle]

I believe the extended warranty was only for 2009-2012, which implies the 2013-2014 models were less plagued. Last I read the 2015s haven't been on the road in sufficient numbers or long enough to generate accurate statistics, but the mood seems to be that they'll likely fall on the probably not side of things. There have been numerous revisions, even for the earlier models. It's not entirely clear that an older or newer pump is more/less problematic. I'm not sure how much energy you want to devote to this concern. I've had a 2012 with the extended warranty, which had just expired about 5K miles before I turned it in. I'm in a 2015 with 80K and it still has a ways to go under warranty.

 

[CDKJudoka]

I believe the extended warranty was only for 2009-2012, which implies the 2013-2014 models were less plagued. Last I read the 2015s haven't been on the road in sufficient numbers or long enough to generate accurate statistics, but the mood seems to be that they'll likely fall on the probably not side of things. There have been numerous revisions, even for the earlier models. It's not entirely clear that an older or newer pump is more/less problematic. I'm not sure how much energy you want to devote to this concern. I've had a 2012 with the extended warranty, which had just expired about 5K miles before I turned it in. I'm in a 2015 with 80K and it still has a ways to go under warranty.

Any TDI that was fixed under the DieselGate recall, is covered under the extended emissions warranty. That includes the 2013-2015s.

 

[bizzle]

Before dieselgate ever happened 2009-2012 TDIs had an HPFP extended warranty to 120,000. The 2012 with an extended warranty that expired I referred to in my second to last sentence couldn't have been covered under the dieselgate recall since it a) expired and b) was "turned in" so that should have been clear I wasn't referring to the dieselgate extended warranty.

 

[kjclow]

I believe the extended warranty was only for 2009-2012, which implies the 2013-2014 models were less plagued.

IMHO, the reason the extended warranty only covered the 09-12 models years was because those were the years included in the NHTSA investigation. I think I was between the two warranties for a few months and about 12,000 miles. I still have got another 3+ for the hpfp to go out on VWs dime.

 

[MikeH31324]

I was planning on buying a 2012-2014 TDI Golf in the next month. I have done some research and the DPF/EGR/emissions equipment didn't scare me....then I found this thread and read most of it.

Is IP failure really imminent?
I read where some are installing CP3 pumps, but I do not see where there are parts or retrofit kits available.

I am a mechanic and do all of my own maintenance and repairs.
Should I skip the Golf and buy a Civic?

 

[oilhammer]

I see more of these cars than a lot of people, and so far, total, I have seen six HPFP failures. Two I fixed, both around 160k miles, three that were fixed by VAG no questions asked, the last one no idea on the outcome.

I have seen FAR more DPF failures, turbo failures, and countless other minor things.

Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely? Not as much as you'd think.

FWIW, I have seen more Civics with holes in the engine block casting than I have seen HPFP failures on CR TDIs, too. Bet you never heard of that one, either?

 

[MikeH31324]

Thanks for the quick response Oilhammer! I am familiar with the 1.8 Civic engine block issues.

If I do get a Golf I am planning on loosing any exhaust equipment that fails. What is causing the turbo failures on the CJAA engines? Any other show stoppers? If I did experience an IP failure is it just a matter of replacing the IP pump, flushing the fuel rail and cleaning injectors? I am having a hard time imagining what costs $10 K to repair after a failure.

Love me some diesels! My current DD has a Cummins.

 

[steve05ram360]

add some 2 stroke oil (or favorite lube of choice) to the fuel... or convert to the cp3, kits are out there.


I ran something like 40~45k with 2 stroke & all emissions in place and saw nothing alarming with the dpf (had a thread on it with what I was seeing)

 

[MikeH31324]

Just found the conversion kits! Good stuff. I’m going to follow you’re advise and just add some fuel lubricant and see how I make out.

On another note I like the reported efficiency of the EA288 in the 2015 models, but I would be leery of the variable displacement oil and coolant pumps. I bet the CJAA engine is not far behind in efficiency once the DPF system is no longer wasting extra fuel.

 

[steve05ram360]

Just found the conversion kits! Good stuff. I’m going to follow you’re advise and just add some fuel lubricant and see how I make out.

On another note I like the reported efficiency of the EA288 in the 2015 models, but I would be leery of the variable displacement oil and coolant pumps. I bet the CJAA engine is not far behind in efficiency once the DPF system is no longer wasting extra fuel.

Here's the thread... should contain how much 2SO I used...


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=393746

 

[oilhammer]

The DPFs do not clog up, they crack and leak. So the fact that the DPF "survived" a measly 50k miles while adding 2-stroke oil to the fuel means absolutely nothing.

The variable displacement oil pumps VAG has been using in some gas engines for a while now have not had any issues aside from the occasional oil pressure sensor failure.

The variable displacement water pumps ARE a common failure item, so common is the control collar breaking on the 2015 TDI 4 cyl engines that the replacements no longer have this collar...effectively eliminating the variable feature of the pump. They still have the plug, though, so no software changes and I guess they have no way of detecting if the system is actually working or not.

And for the record, in the event a HPFP failure should happen, it does NOT mean the crazy amounts of money you see posted here. We also have a vendor here that can properly fix and clean the injectors, so they needn't be replaced either. You basically just do the pump itself, the two electric pumps (although the auxiliary electric pump under the hood could probably be cleaned easily enough, they never die), the rail pressure sensor and control solenoid (these would be difficult to really get clean I think) and a filter. That's it. Every other piece can be carefully disassembled and cleaned, no problem. Of the two that I did, I know for sure one is still on the road today nearly 50k miles later.

 

[MikeH31324]

Thanks Oilhammer, this sounds more realistic and reasonable. You guys are definitely going to make me spend some money and add another diesel to my fleet. In a few days my commute is increasing from 16 miles a day to 70 miles a day. Will be mostly two lane highway at 55-60 MPH with a few intersections/traffic lights. The diesel Golf will save enough fuel compared to my Dodge truck that it will actually pay for itself.

So now the only remaining question is to buy a 2012-2014, or a 2015?

 

[oilhammer]

I have been driving 100 miles a day for 20 years, but I prefer the older cars because they are far less costly to operate. I would not let "saving money" be your only reason for buying a TDI. There are cheaper cars to own out there, even if they only get 35 MPG at best. They'll often suck to drive, though.

 

[steve05ram360]

The DPFs do not clog up, they crack and leak. So the fact that the DPF "survived" a measly 50k miles while adding 2-stroke oil to the fuel means absolutely nothing.

The variable displacement oil pumps VAG has been using in some gas engines for a while now have not had any issues aside from the occasional oil pressure sensor failure.

The variable displacement water pumps ARE a common failure item, so common is the control collar breaking on the 2015 TDI 4 cyl engines that the replacements no longer have this collar...effectively eliminating the variable feature of the pump. They still have the plug, though, so no software changes and I guess they have no way of detecting if the system is actually working or not.

And for the record, in the event a HPFP failure should happen, it does NOT mean the crazy amounts of money you see posted here. We also have a vendor here that can properly fix and clean the injectors, so they needn't be replaced either. You basically just do the pump itself, the two electric pumps (although the auxiliary electric pump under the hood could probably be cleaned easily enough, they never die), the rail pressure sensor and control solenoid (these would be difficult to really get clean I think) and a filter. That's it. Every other piece can be carefully disassembled and cleaned, no problem. Of the two that I did, I know for sure one is still on the road today nearly 50k miles later.

Seriously??? so no need to ever clean a dpf... edit: Ah, I get it, yeah they would crack and leak cause they are not flowing enough and overheating...


50k is still 50k, its all I put on it before it got parked... back then the concern was it would take out the dpf which clearly it did not. Had I not been away from home for so long I would have kept it. The ram with 415k atm (405k that I put on it) takes priority.


The CP4 stinks, google it for all its applications with the failures and you'll agree. Add 2 stroke to the fuel to keep it alive or swap in the cp3.

 

[oilhammer]

The DPFs on the CBEA and CJAA engines are not known for ever "filling up", no. They are WELL KNOWN for cracking, which causes soot to get past them, which doesn't really bother the DPF but it clogs up the low pressure EGR filter tube. This manifests itself as a stored EGR insufficient flow DTC, and sooty tailpipes. The engine will be running perfectly fine. There is a TSB for this. Pre-dieselgate. The issue is worse now. Which may be why they threw an "extra" new DPF into the fix for later on, and removed the low pressure EGR filter tube and just put one in that has no such innards and cannot clog up. Thus passing all the soot from the cracked DPF right into the turbocharger instead.

 

[steve05ram360]

What is the root cause for the cracking?


My truck is pre-dpf so the only experience I had was on the 2011 golf I had. It sounds like the CR TDI has become a greater headache in stock form than it used to be.

 

[oilhammer]

What is the root cause for the cracking?


My truck is pre-dpf so the only experience I had was on the 2011 golf I had. It sounds like the CR TDI has become a greater headache in stock form than it used to be.

Well what is the root cause of anything that breaks? I mean, it clearly wasn't designed to withstand the demands placed upon it. I am not aware of anyone else's DPFs that do that.

Sadly, the CR TDI never really got a chance to mature (for us, anyway), as the 2015 kind of changed so many things that it was in effect almost like starting over. I feel like that version by now is probably very good. We just cannot buy them here. Good news for the 2015s we DID get that are still here, it is possible much of any improvements made since then can be retrofitted to these as required.

Of course, Dieselgate has thrown a giant rusty wrench into the whole works. It is really anyone's guess long term how this plays out, but from what I see right now it isn't great. However slightly less bad for the 2015s, as they were not deemed as bad to begin with. And SCR does allow a little better operation so long as IT stays working properly. Of course, they couldn't seem to figure out the manual CKRA cars. So the only 45+ MPG midsized sedan with the proper number of pedals was removed from the roads, except for some folks who opted out and kept their cars.

 

[MikeH31324]

I have been driving 100 miles a day for 20 years, but I prefer the older cars because they are far less costly to operate. I would not let "saving money" be your only reason for buying a TDI. There are cheaper cars to own out there, even if they only get 35 MPG at best. They'll often suck to drive, though.

As I have gotten older I will not own a vehicle that I do not enjoy driving. I prefer older and cheaper vehicles because I cannot bring myself to buy new, and because they have to be relatively simple enough to be economically maintained at home. I have not driven a MKVI Golf yet, but have driven a 2010 Audi A3 TSI and loved it. Hopefully being 6’2” I will fit in a Golf OK.

Typically once I find a vehicle that I deem a keeper I will repair/modify as necessary to correct all of the quirks and problems, even if it doesn’t make sound financial sense. I have way more in my diesel Dodge than it’s worth, but it runs and drives way better than when it was new. I’m sure I will do the same with a TDI Golf.

 

[oilhammer]

I agree, I could not stand to drive something I didn't like either. I actually enjoy driving, and my Golf allows me to enjoy something I have to do anyway. And I even drive a lot of extra miles just for fun. Took my son for a spin last night, piled another ~50 miles on it enjoying some of the country back roads around my little town.

 

[97B4TDi]

I purchased a 2013 JSW a little over a year ago and I am concerned with the CP4 "grenading" considering I am planning on keeping this vehicle for many years. I read through the entire thread and I am having a difficult time determining how common this really is...

Seems like if I add a lubrication additive it should get me by a while?

 

[Matt927]

OptiLube XPD every tank

 

[calimustang]

yep like what Matt said, I used OptiLube XPD on every tank in my old 2011 JSW that I bought new, original CP4 survived until 240k miles and I yanked it out for CP3 just for heck of it. rear ended at 300k miles and gone thru buyback.

Now I have 2014 JSW... she had 5 hpfp failures in 6 months from 20k to 25k miles. on the 5th, the so called VW mechanic decided to look into the fuel tank, BEHOLD! it was caked in mold/mildew from sitting 2 years as an buyback car. The very next day after I picked her up, slapped CP3 in her and drove her. now she purrs at 80k miles.

 

[ebain21]

I just did my first DIY oil and fuel filter change. It was an 80k service (79350 to be exact), and noticed metal flakes on top of the filter and a few in the bottom of the filter housing. I drained and cleaned out the flakes and filled with fresh diesel before priming with VCDS. Am I doomed to an eventual HPFP failure or is that just one of the warning signs? Luckily I still have a couple years and/or 40,000 miles of the extended emissions warranty. Should I drive more and worry less?

 

[kjclow]

I'd drive until it blows. At least that's what I'm doing.

 

[Jeta Life]

This thread was always one of my favorites. Although I'm not an owner of VW right now, I owned 2 gassers...a 1991 Jetta GL 5 speed, a 2001 B5 1.8T Passat loaded and lastly the 2009 Jetta TDI with DSG, which was bought back after the scandal. VWs have always been my favorite car to DRIVE. When I owned my 2009 Jetta TDI (I bought it used with 60K around 2012) I never experienced the infamous HPFP fuel pump failure. But my DPF did crack and leak soot in the tailpipe which I recall there being a handkerchief thread on the board.

I sold it back to VW late in 2015 for around $11,000 when it had 140,000 miles..it was tough to pass up on that deal. A fuel pump failure was usually caused by poor diesel quality but I do recall owners would upgrade their pump to a sturdier more resilient one as a preventative measure. I never did and may have been lucky but I think the failures were somewhat exaggerated. They're rare..but can happen..always buy your diesel fuel in stations where there is a lot of truck traffic and the batch of diesel is fresh...which is no problem where I live as there are many industrial areas with truck stops.

Nice to visit the board and some old good memories. Times were simpler back in the day when I had my VWs, and while I was devasted by the dieselgate news I will still say VWs have always been my favorite car to DRIVE.