CR engine HPFP analysis

[eddif]

I really don't get VW's wishy-washy stance at this point. Does the call to cover or not come from the same Dept.? With all they are facing in the investigation, having begun a trend of covering all recent failures, how/why does a non-coverage pop up?

We have been headed toward non coverage for a long time. The VW stance "that fuel is the problem" has existed for some time. The tendancy to deny warranty has existed for a long time too. VW is not wishy-washy but standing by their guns.

VW will not cover the cars under warranty for the lifetime of the cars (which may be defined as 150,000 miles ?). The fact that VW fixed the cars for a time (2 years ?) does not say that they will continue to cover problems. The very fact that the cars do not 15% (?) fail by 50,000 miles (?) would give a judge / jury fits in deciding what was a reasonable attempt by VW to resolve the problem.

I totally agree a diesel engine should last 400,000 miles with reasonable maintenance and reasonable repair. In my mind two $8,000 USD repair bills would not be reasonable. My mind does not accept 150,000 miles as a reasonable diesel engine lifetime.

Given all this I still suggest we look at the CR engine HPFP analysis which this thread is, and not the corporation or legal system. Fixing the HPFP system is a lot more do-able than some things suggested.

IMHO design flaws kill the HPFP system. BUT.... I am just a shadetree jerk from Mississippi and what do I know about anything. The wear materials come off the double hump cam and roller assembly (as stated by a lot of folks now). Wait till this is all complicated by the 2012 Passats and their cleaner fuel filters at repair time. Of course some will wait to look into how the 2012 Passats fuel system operates and miss the opportunity to understand what may be going on then / now (and I do not totally know the effect of the changes).

Real interesting. LOL

eddif

 

[vwmj]

VW refuses to test the fuel. They deny the claim stating the pump failure was not caused by manufacturer defect and they will not discuss any further

 

[CedarPark68]

VW refuses to test the fuel. They deny the claim stating the pump failure was not caused by manufacturer defect and they will not discuss any further

This is as I have been suspecting based on what I have been hearing around the dealerships ..... bumper to bumper, they are not going to fuss as they attempt to protect their brand, they would rather you not run home and Google HPFP.
Outside of 36k three years with no warranty, I believe it will be a case by case basis.

I would certainlly hire legal and have your insurance company along side you as well.

As I've stated, outside of 36k without an extended warrarnty, owning a CR TDI is a gamble, as Power Train Warranty was never intended for this and I believe we are going to see this happen more and more.

vwmj, please keep us up to date, and do keep on them, perhaps they will send out the regional rep for you.

 

[vwmj]

I have an extended warranty but the dealer says this is definitely a power train component. Even VW confirmed that the hpfp is indeed a power train component but they are denying the claim based on the statement that the failure was not caused by a manufacturing defect (claiming bad fuel). At this point the only contaminant found in the fuel is metal particles. Insurance company says this is not an indemnifiable event so they will not cover it. The dealer confirmed that the fuel is in fact diesel and not gas.

 

[pknopp]

They have to prove their claim to deny a warranty claim.

 

[TwoTone]

They have to prove their claim to deny a warranty claim.

No they don't. This is how simple it is. VWoA says denied- done.

Now if you don't agree, you can hire a lawyer and go to court and force them to prove it, but who has the time or the money to do this while their car sits.

That's why I love all the head in the sanders telling everyone to just buy an extended warranty and drive more worry less. Easy to say until you're faced with this.

 

[vwmj]

Twotone, you are exactly correct. This is what they are doing. I have asked them to send me their determination in writing so I can show it to my lawyer. I thought that they would at least analyze the fuel and try to find a basis to deny the claim but they won't even authorize the dealer to take a fuel sample. I thought they would need to have just cause to deny the claim but they simply have a policy to deny and force the customer to prove it. This is actually far worse then the blame the customer first campaign since they won't even do any testing. They stated the failure must be do to manufacturer defect in order to be covered and their policy is that the pump is not defective. When I asked how they could have determined that, they said they didn't need to.

 

[pknopp]

No they don't. This is how simple it is. VWoA says denied- done.

Now if you don't agree, you can hire a lawyer and go to court and force them to prove it, but who has the time or the money to do this while their car sits.

That's why I love all the head in the sanders telling everyone to just buy an extended warranty and drive more worry less. Easy to say until you're faced with this.

I sold VW's in the past. Not once did I see them deny a claim. Even when they were denying a problem (early 90's, gassers carboning up) did they refuse to do something.

I refuse to believe that VoA is fixing some under the 5/60, no questions asked and refusing this for no reason.

We might see a dealer not do what they need to do for whatever reason. vwmj, did you actually talk to VoA or just the dealer?

 

[flyboy320]

Try another dealer...

 

[STRANGETDI]

I posted this in the NHSTA HPFP Investigation thread, but thought this could be helpful....

Originally Posted by El Dobro
Would be nice if this would work.
http://stanadyne.com/view.php?id=24


Could this be an alternative to our HPFP?

I work right by an authorized Stanadyne Diesel shop:
Metro Fuel Injection Deep River

500 South Main Street
DEEP RIVER, CT 06417

Phone: 860-526-5941
Fax: 860-526-9011
Email: hldiesel@sbcglobal.net

If you guys give me some questions, I can certainly stop by ask them and get some feed back.

I now have a 2012 CR TDI too.


Questions so far, in no particular order:

1. Will this new standyne pump fit into the same area as the current hpfp from bosch? (direct bolt in?) The beauty of a common rail system is that any pump that will bolt on, fit the engine and supplies enough pressure, will do the job...(can the staement be verified...)

2. How does this pump stand up long term to the poor quality US diesel?

3. A schematic to compare to the current hpfp and see if it appears that the possible failure methods (of the Bosch HPFPs) have been eliminated?

4. What type of warranty they offer?

5. Cost labor and parts?

6. if they actually can bolt in ....and work exactly with all other VW components (electrical and mechanical)

(we may need to provide a broken HPFP to them for study, I can find out more..)

 

[truman]

Until the HPFP is known to be a lifetime component, like an oil pump, I won't buy another diesel. The economics under a best case scenario are marginal. The present situation will ruin the resale value- a former strong point. Look what has happened to Passat PD resale values, which pales vs the HPFP situation.

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

Until the HPFP is known to be a lifetime component, like an oil pump, I won't buy another diesel. The economics under a best case scenario are marginal. The present situation will ruin the resale value- a former strong point. Look what has happened to Passat PD resale values, which pales vs the HPFP situation.

People keep saying that, but it hasn't so far.. Resale value still good on my '10..

 

[kjclow]

Try the area rep and or go up to VWOA. Don't stop at the dealer.

 

[Niner]

I went to the dealer today and I am happy to say they were very helpful. I wish I could say the same for VWofA. VW has chosen to deny my claim due to fuel contamination. When I asked what kind of contamination they declined to answer. The dealer assisted me in obtaining a fuel sample from the fuel filter. When he opened the fuel filter I did see the contamination they were talking about. It was some fine metal particles. The fuel looks to be diesel with some fine metal particles in it. I guess VW is saying that the metal could have been introduced by the pump.

File a claim, online, immediately, with the NHTSA, and have the name, address and phone number of everyone at that VW dealership available for NHTSA to follow up with. NHTSA may want to send someone else out to inspect the pump as well as take a fuel sample too.

Do a search here on TDIclub on how to file a claim.

Never let VW know that your insurance might cover the HPFP failure, or that you may have that type of coverage.

The common belief is that the fuel pump disinegrating causes the contamination of the fuel with metal particles and fines. Ask the mechanic or technician to tell you where the metal came from, in writing, or record the conversation, as you watch them pull the fuel pressure sensor on the HPFP and find that it's chock full of metal filings and swarf. The fact that there is so much of it accumulated right there, under the screen, is an indicator that it was created in great volume somewhere else, very close by. the further from the damage/ destruction area, the more dispersed the metal swarf is.

Your other option may be to tow it to another VW dealership.

 

[wanabe]

I followed VW scheduled maintenance for the first 36,000 miles and then paid for the full 40,000 mile maintenance.

Since you have 59K miles on the car the implication is that someone other than a VW dealer did the 50K service. Is that correct? I'm wondering if others who are not using VW dealers for their service have had the HPFP replaced under warranty. I have been assuming that it was not a factor but it is very worrisome to read your story after VW seemed to be doing the right thing lately.

 

[eddif]

File a claim, online, immediately, with the NHTSA, and have the name, address and phone number of everyone at that VW dealership available for NHTSA to follow up with. NHTSA may want to send someone else out to inspect the pump as well as take a fuel sample too.

Do a search here on TDIclub on how to file a claim.

Never let VW know that your insurance might cover the HPFP failure, or that you may have that type of coverage.

The common belief is that the fuel pump disinegrating causes the contamination of the fuel with metal particles and fines. Ask the mechanic or technician to tell you where the metal came from, in writing, or record the conversation, as you watch them pull the fuel pressure sensor on the HPFP and find that it's chock full of metal filings and swarf. The fact that there is so much of it accumulated right there, under the screen, is an indicator that it was created in great volume somewhere else, very close by. the further from the damage/ destruction area, the more dispersed the metal swarf is.

Your other option may be to tow it to another VW dealership.

The common belief is that the fuel pump disinegrating causes the contamination of the fuel with metal particles and fines.
There are several beliefs. The beliefs vary with who has them. The boost pump could have been a problem or VW was just simplifying the design by doing away with one pump. I do agree that the boost pump screen was possibly not enough to protect the HPFP from possible boost pump wear particles. The wear on the HPFP roller and holder supply the wear particles to stop up the pea size screen on the HPFP pressure relief valve.

VW
It is everyone else that is causing our failures.

Customers
1...It is VW design problems
2...It is a non-issue my car has not failed.
3...It is fuel manufacturers and fuel delivery.
4...Other

eddif
It is design
1..HPFP not robust enough
2..Lack of correct injection system filtering (depending on small, course screens to remove too many wear particles)
3...Fuel flow paths wrong
4..No water seperation / removal
5..Fuel quality (Dweisel -- Lubrication , Lubrication, Lubrication)
6..Other issues beyond what I think (a jerk from Mississippi can not be good enough)

By changing the: HPFPs; filter canister design; the Passat boost pump delete etc..........VW is saying, in one sense, something is wrong.

eddif

 

[Trooper81]

What about this for a reason, Say you use a demulsifier, you drive your car only until 1/4 tank careful never to run it low, then one day your screwed and you need to go the extra 300 km because there is no fuel around. And so you run it down to the bare minimum. Now because the demulsifer separated the water from your fuel, it's all sitting at the bottom of the tank and your last 10 minutes of driving you get a nice heavy dose of water diluted fuel running through your fuel system.

Is that even plausible? I'm just going through senarios. I'm pretty sure water should settle to the bottom.


oh and the reason the passat's design is different is because it's coming from the SHARAN, this isn't your golf's engine. I got that info from an inside source at vw. You might have same displacement but it's a different engine. So i really wouldn't bet on the design being a redesign at all.

 

[Ski in NC]

What about this for a reason, Say you use a demulsifier, you drive your car only until 1/4 tank careful never to run it low, then one day your screwed and you need to go the extra 300 km because there is no fuel around. And so you run it down to the bare minimum. Now because the demulsifer separated the water from your fuel, it's all sitting at the bottom of the tank and your last 10 minutes of driving you get a nice heavy dose of water diluted fuel running through your fuel system.

Is that even plausible? I'm just going through senarios. I'm pretty sure water should settle to the bottom.


oh and the reason the passat's design is different is because it's coming from the SHARAN, this isn't your golf's engine. I got that info from an inside source at vw. You might have same displacement but it's a different engine. So i really wouldn't bet on the design being a redesign at all.

Water sits on the bottom of the tank. The chances of the engine picking up water are basically the same whether the tank is full or not. Aside from maybe differences in sloshing when tank is low.

 

[Trooper81]

Water sits on the bottom of the tank. The chances of the engine picking up water are basically the same whether the tank is full or not. Aside from maybe differences in sloshing when tank is low.

so it sits on the bottom i think we agree on that, even with no sloshing wouldn't you eventually pick it up? or is there a point at the bottom of the tank which never drains no matter how low the fuel is?

 

[chetstash]

OP- I would call Newsday and tell them what you are going through. At the very least Arnold Diaz deserves a phone call as well! What dealer are you working with?

 

[vwmj]

I received my letter from VW basically stating they do not believe the failure is due to manufacturer defect so it is not covered. Yesterday I went to the dealer and met with the VW regional rep and he stated that since the car has an extended warranty the repair should go through the extended warranty. He also stated that if the warranty company denies the claim then VW will cover the repair since they recognize that the cost of this repair is far to much to expect the consumer to cover (which made me feel slightly better but I will not be relieved until I get the car back fully repaired).

The VW regional rep was much nicer and more resonable then the VW customer care people I have been dealing with. He also told me not to use any additives as they can adversely affect the lubricity of ULSD fuel. His recommendation was to only go to high volume stations since diesel can be more prone to contamination then gas and the sensitive nature of the HPFP system makes it especially vulnerable to contaminated fuel (no kidding huh?).

 

[sgoldste01]

Well, we know that biodiesel has a positive affect on the lubricity of ULSD fuel, so I must disagree with the regional rep on at least that point. And we know that other quality additives improve lubricity too, to varying degrees.

 

[CedarPark68]

While I use Stanadyne, both PF and LF versions, I feel that perhaps the safest approach to adding lubrcity is splashing your own tank with a HIGH quaility B100 to make a B2/B5 mixture.

This approach gets you out of the water separation conversation that all additives bring to the table.

Will this help long term, I've stated no, and I still believe such. I believe all pumps will fail before they should which IMO 'should' is > 250k miles.

 

[53 willys]

Since you have 59K miles on the car the implication is that someone other than a VW dealer did the 50K service. Is that correct? I'm wondering if others who are not using VW dealers for their service have had the HPFP replaced under warranty. I have been assuming that it was not a factor but it is very worrisome to read your story after VW seemed to be doing the right thing lately.

I let my dealer do the 1st couple services on my car then I did the last two before my HPFP failed.....they warrantied mine with zero qestions or concerns..

Seems to me warranty is pretty much at the dealers discretion...if the dealer doesn't want to do it..it seems like vw sides with their dealer...

 

[eddif]

What about this for a reason, Say you use a demulsifier, you drive your car only until 1/4 tank careful never to run it low, then one day your screwed and you need to go the extra 300 km because there is no fuel around. And so you run it down to the bare minimum. Now because the demulsifer separated the water from your fuel, it's all sitting at the bottom of the tank and your last 10 minutes of driving you get a nice heavy dose of water diluted fuel running through your fuel system.

Is that even plausible? I'm just going through senarios. I'm pretty sure water should settle to the bottom.


oh and the reason the passat's design is different is because it's coming from the SHARAN, this isn't your golf's engine. I got that info from an inside source at vw. You might have same displacement but it's a different engine. So i really wouldn't bet on the design being a redesign at all.

IMHO a large part of the water issue is no means to remove the water from the fuel, but depend on the water being mixed with the fuel and sent through the injection system.

If you use a demulsifier and seperate the water from the fuel, then you have to remix the water with the fuel to get it through the filter and rest of the system. If you use a water seperator / removal system there is almost no water to go throught the HPFP.

Gets to be a mess. I just think the water removal works, but the owner then must be part of the process and drain the water at intervals. VW does not want to be involved with the reality of fuel quality so they ignore what we really go through in NA (not that there is a lot of water, but there are some minor fuel quality issues at times).

My ears are open to all the differences in the 2012 Passat.

eddif

 

[dweisel]

What about this for a reason, Say you use a demulsifier, you drive your car only until 1/4 tank careful never to run it low, then one day your screwed and you need to go the extra 300 km because there is no fuel around. And so you run it down to the bare minimum. Now because the demulsifer separated the water from your fuel, it's all sitting at the bottom of the tank and your last 10 minutes of driving you get a nice heavy dose of water diluted fuel running through your fuel system.

Is that even plausible? I'm just going through senarios. I'm pretty sure water should settle to the bottom.


oh and the reason the passat's design is different is because it's coming from the SHARAN, this isn't your golf's engine. I got that info from an inside source at vw. You might have same displacement but it's a different engine. So i really wouldn't bet on the design being a redesign at all.

One bad design feature of the tdi fuel tank is the fuel sending unit sits at the absolute lowest point in the fuel tank. It sits in a recess made into the bottom of the tank that is around 3/8ths of an inch lower than the rest of the fuel tank. This recess is a collection place for ALL things bad. Whether it be water,sediment or other contaminates. Here is a pic of the bottom of the fuel tank with the recess.(circled in green) Notice the metal particles are in this recess which the fuel sending unit sits in. You would think that the tank would/should have a slightly raised portion for the fuel sending unit to sit on to prevent or lessen the chances of contaminates being picked up by the fuel sending unit.

 

[53 willys]

It goes back to design.....if they had made a good HPFP with quality water separator unit it would not matter where the pickup sits....

 

[sgoldste01]

But don't you want the sending unit as low as possible so that if an owner is driving with an almost completely empty tank, he will get fuel for as long as possible? We've also stated that you don't want to run out of fuel in a TDI because that would be bad for the HPFP. So shouldn't the sending unit be as low as possible for that very reason?

 

[Trooper81]

Interesting how that tank is designed you really don't want to stretch it to the max. I'm trying to find more info on the new Generation 2 CR. I have an ssp from the 2011 Sharan but it's in German so most of you wouldn't really benefit from it.

what we really need is a Generation 2 CR 2.0 TDI SSP. I'm sure it'll pop up sooner or later.

A few key points on the new engine are.

1 the sylinoid injectors
2 a cylinder head like the 1.6 CR TDI, which has EGR Passing through the Head.
3 EGR cooler like the 1.6 tdi cooled and vented.

4 plastic intake manifold ( I think) without the swirl flaps.

 

[dweisel]

But don't you want the sending unit as low as possible so that if an owner is driving with an almost completely empty tank, he will get fuel for as long as possible? We've also stated that you don't want to run out of fuel in a TDI because that would be bad for the HPFP. So shouldn't the sending unit be as low as possible for that very reason?

Would you want the fueling station that you use to have the pick up tube at the lowest part of the tank? Same difference.