CR (CKRA) Charge Air/Cooling Upgrades

[joshferrer]

So with lots of time on my hands the last few months...I have been looking into cooling upgrades for my CKRA and would appreciate some input from you experienced guys here.

Goal: Reduce intake air temperatures and upgrade cooling capacity while in there.

There aren’t any “upgrades” for this platform as the stock charge cooler system seems to be pretty efficient as is but I haven’t been able to find hard data on this. Pretty good stock efficiency of this platform seems to be the consensus here in my searches but would love to be pointed to that as I can’t seem to find it.

Where can I find info on the stock Intercooler on this platform? (CFM, core size, etc)

Part: 3AA145805B

Has anybody here tried upgrading any part of their stock air to water setup on the CR and compared that data to the stock setup? Let’s say I find something more efficient than the stock setup and install it, theoretically the IATs should be lower. Since it’s all electronic, does the ECU recognize that lower IAT and adjust accordingly? I need help understanding how it works on this platform.

Thinking of upgrading parts of the system just to see and compare data. I do autox and canyon drive my TDI as well as sit in absurd amounts of traffic here in LA so it wouldn’t hurt to be able to lower IATs and also keep engine coolant temps lower.

Here’s what I’m thinking:

I’ll try this in two phases.

Phase 1: keep the stock Intercooler. Replace the stock auxiliary water pump to something that flows more like a Bosch Cobra or something. Take both the radiator and the auxiliary (heat exchanger) radiator out from the core support. Get a front mounted heat exchanger. Since now there is more space in the core support area, get something like a beefy upgraded MK7 radiator and just weld the mounting points to fit this core support.

Phase 2: try a different upgraded air to water intercooler (pending on if on paper it really is more efficient than the stock one).

If I do phase 1 alone, that should help with my goal, right?

Info on my current power setup:
Currently on a Malone stage 2 dpf/egr/def delete tune and should be right around the 200hp range. The reason I’m looking into this is because I’m working on a build to hopefully get it to around 300hp. My timing failure earlier this year has me with a second CR engine around now that is going to be used for this build. It’s a slow process that has gotten slower due to Covid. Doesn’t hurt to start working on understanding this cooling thing now.

I’ll be logging data in the coming weeks as I’d like to see where my stock IATs are here in SoCal.

Has anybody here done anything like this and have data they’re willing to share? Is there already data here that I missed? Please point me in the right direction. Should I even attempt?

If there isn’t data out here, I’d be more than willing to be the guinea pig on this.

I’m not expert by any stretch of the imagination (you can see all my failures in threads lol) so I’m open to all comments, criticism and help. I would really appreciate it!

To anyone responding, I do realize that the difference may not be significant enough or even “worth it” to try but definitely would love to learn how it affects this stock setup. This is definitely not something to brag about but just something cool to learn from, in my opinion.

Thanks!


-2014 Passat TDI SEL

 

[oilhammer]

Packaging is going to restrict any 'larger' intercooler. The CKRA is already crammed as it is.

You'd probably be better off to try an upgrade to a larger intercooler radiator, but the problem there is, it already has one that covers the ENTIRE area same as the condenser and engine radiator.

So now you are looking at adding something additional, but you do not want it causing the ENGINE to not get up to and stay at operating temp, since the systems run together. So anything that drastically reduces the coolant temp to the air charge heat exchanger could also make the engine unhappy.

So that would lead to perhaps figuring out a way to either isolate the two systems entirely, which would be a big pain, or have some setup to reroute the coolant going INTO the intercooler and cool just it down even more then sending it back to where it went.

But now you are back to the packaging issue. Adding even more hoses/pipes/tubes/plumbing/pumps.... I put one, ONE, frostheater on a CKRA. Never again. So I can only imagine what you are thinking about will be even worse.

And in the end, how much difference will it really make? Would you notice the extra fueling and boost that the ECU would allow from a 1 C drop in IAT? Or would it take 5 C to even notice?

Also, depending on the state of the EGR, that could be accounting for a higher IAT value, despite EGR cooling, etc. So would a larger EGR cooler circuit be just as beneficial?

In the end, I do not think you'll find much for what you want. The NMS is a big sled family sedan, built in and for a market that was very slim to begin with and has now had its back turned on. A friend recently bought a Passat GT, with the 3.6L VR6 and DSG, and it hauls ass. Still a big sled, though.

 

[joshferrer]

Packaging is going to restrict any 'larger' intercooler. The CKRA is already crammed as it is.

You'd probably be better off to try an upgrade to a larger intercooler radiator, but the problem there is, it already has one that covers the ENTIRE area same as the condenser and engine radiator.

So now you are looking at adding something additional, but you do not want it causing the ENGINE to not get up to and stay at operating temp, since the systems run together. So anything that drastically reduces the coolant temp to the air charge heat exchanger could also make the engine unhappy.

So that would lead to perhaps figuring out a way to either isolate the two systems entirely, which would be a big pain, or have some setup to reroute the coolant going INTO the intercooler and cool just it down even more then sending it back to where it went.

But now you are back to the packaging issue. Adding even more hoses/pipes/tubes/plumbing/pumps.... I put one, ONE, frostheater on a CKRA. Never again. So I can only imagine what you are thinking about will be even worse.

And in the end, how much difference will it really make? Would you notice the extra fueling and boost that the ECU would allow from a 1 C drop in IAT? Or would it take 5 C to even notice?

Also, depending on the state of the EGR, that could be accounting for a higher IAT value, despite EGR cooling, etc. So would a larger EGR cooler circuit be just as beneficial?

In the end, I do not think you'll find much for what you want. The NMS is a big sled family sedan, built in and for a market that was very slim to begin with and has now had its back turned on. A friend recently bought a Passat GT, with the 3.6L VR6 and DSG, and it hauls ass. Still a big sled, though.

It’s definitely packed in there. Swapping out the Intercooler would most definitely be a pain which is why that wouldn’t be the first thing I’d try to do.

Trying to find that balance of keeping the engine happy is key which is why I was wondering how the system would be affected if I swapped out the auxiliary pump, swapped out the auxiliary radiator for a front mounted one and swapped out the stock radiator for a bigger one but keep the stock Intercooler. If there was a difference, small or big, what would happen if I did go through the pain of swapping out the Intercooler next?

I ask these questions here to get some help from the pros like yourself which I super appreciate.

You’re right in the difference it would make,
or not. Would I be able to even tell? Likely not since I’m not trying to break records here with this thing.

My EGR cooler still seems to be running well. Would there be a difference if I deleted the egr cooler circuit but added a bigger radiator?

In the end, it’s a big turd but a big turd that has provided a platform for me to learn. I’m just here to see if anybody else has experimented on their turd and found positive or negative results.


-2014 Passat TDI SEL

 

[joshferrer]

A visual of what I was thinking.

Put a front mounted heat exchanger to the front right here and replacing the stock auxiliary pump with an upgraded one and mounting it to the left.

I’d move my DSG cooler to the right behind the fog light to make room for it.

In terms of hoses, I wouldn’t be adding very much since the stock hoses are pretty close to here anyways.


-2014 Passat TDI SEL

 

[adjat84th]

I've thought about something like this as an upgrade to the CAC radiator in addition with a higher flowing pump. It's just a pricey piece! You're right though, these coolers do a decent job at keeping temps steady. I've datalogged some with pre/post charge air temps and the CRUA version (pretty sure it's near identical to your CKRA cooler) keeps intake temps between 44-57C. I think a proper FMIC gets much closer to ambient, which is the reason for looking into an upgrade myself.

 

[turbobrick240]

For short duration bursts like auto-x you could add a windshield squirter to spray fluid onto the aux. heat exchanger. It might not last all that long before depleting the res., but it would be very cheap and easy.

 

[turbodiesellover]

I have a 2014 Passat with Polar FIS guages and can monitor intake temps. After upgrading my exhaust, losing my EGR system, and with new more powerful tune, the intake temp is just a few degrees higher than the radiator temp reading. The radiator temp I monitor must be at the point where it enters the engine or at the bottom of the radiator. I would leave the intercooler alone! I’m surprised at the low intake temps, it appears the intercooler is very efficient. If you go with an air to water intercooler you’ll have to deal with icing in cold climates.

 

[oilhammer]

I have a 2014 Passat with Polar FIS guages and can monitor intake temps. After upgrading my exhaust, losing my EGR system, and with new more powerful tune, the intake temp is just a few degrees higher than the radiator temp reading. The radiator temp I monitor must be at the point where it enters the engine or at the bottom of the radiator. I would leave the intercooler alone! I’m surprised at the low intake temps, it appears the intercooler is very efficient. If you go with an air to water intercooler you’ll have to deal with icing in cold climates.

The car already has an air to water intercooler, and they never ever ice up. Air to air ones only ice up due to the low pressure EGR. Your engine coolant temp value is taken as it comes OUT of the engine, at its hottest.