CR Build for power and mileage in kit car

[Whitbread]

I posted a thread in the motorsports section about the two projects I'm going to be involved with at work, but have some specifics that I feel are better addressed here.

This is the car engine will be going in http://superlitecars.com/gallery-slc/

Engine will be a 2009 CBEA motor bolted to an Audi 01E trans. Gear ratios will put us at 1800rpm at 65mph, the planned speed range for the mileage run. Car will weigh 2200lbs. Space, emissions, custom fabrication/machining are of no concern as budget and resources are pretty much unlimited.


Customer requirements of the project:
#1 - Car must drive from coast to coast on one tank of fuel to set mileage and distance record. Fuel tank will be approximately 60-65 gallons. Shortest distance coast to coast is about 2100 miles. Aero mods will be done on front end to front of car to make it more slippery and no wing.

#2 - Car must perform in same league as it would with an LS3 crate engine on demand once mileage runs are done. If it's not a riot to drive, it will turn this whole poject into a flop. It doesn't have to run next to it, it just can't be an 1/8 mile behind in a 1/4 mile drag race.


Plan #1
Stock long block
2260vk turbo
cp3 pump for durability sake
Intercooler

Plan #2
Rosten rods
Stock pistons
Head porting
Cams
Head Studs
Cp3 pump
Larger nozzles
stock turbo as Hp unit
EFR 7064, EFR 6758, or a GT2876R LP turbo



I'm leaning towards plan 2 as long as customer is ok with budget, but mileage cannot suffer. I know low CR alh's drop mpg, but theoretically, since I'm not changing CR, mpg should be relatively unaffected I think. This here is the reason for this post. I'd like to hear the input of any engineers thoughts or tuners that have messed with the CR platform.

 

[storx]

on the highway the 2260 increased my mpg alot compared to stock.. but in the city i eat more fuel..

 

[KERMA]

drop a stock cbea in that 2200 lb car and you easily meet your MPG goal even with full emissions controls. If it was a 20 gal tank - now that would be a challenge. A full 60 gallon load of fuel will add 420 or so lb of weight though

A quick google for LS3 crate engines says we are looking at 400 hp+

This might be a sub 10-second quarter mile with ideal traction

With about 40 mg/r for 100 hp, we need to burn 160 mg/r of fuel for 400 whp, or 200 hp/liter. The LS3 engines are maybe 3x the displacement so the hp/liter requirement is a lot lower. You are essentially looking to build the equivalent of a 1200-1400 hp pickup truck with 6.0-6.6 liters

the big challenge will be shoving enough air in there to support 400 hp without affecting the efficiency at low load conditions. At lambda 1.10 you need more than 2500 mg of air

it may be tough to keep the best efficiency at low load with injectors flowing 2 or 3 times stock flow. (without some thinking outside the box)

On second thought, why not just drop in a tourareg V10? They are very lightweight for the power output and drastically under-tuned from the factory.

 

[Whitbread]

We don't need 400hp, 300-325whp would be plenty with 400+tq. It just can't be left totally in the dust.

The other part of wanting to run a cp3 pump was to be able to run higher low load rail pressures to help with atomization at cruise to keep mpgs up.

 

[oilhammer]

Neat project.

 

[JFettig]

Consider than PD's make 300*bhp* on GTB2260VK turbos, that's what, 36lb/min? Size that HP down to EFR6758 - 49lb/min. Consider a GTB1756VK at the LARGEST for a HP turbo, a GTB1749VK/VC/VM(or smaller) would be better suited. I'll send you my calculations tonight if you remind me. By my calculations, you will likely stay under 50lb/min on LP and 20lb/min corrected for HP.

Mileage may suffer with a single 2260 due to low-mid range response and output at lower RPM. Should be happy highway cruising.

 

[v8 coupe]

what about pairing one of Ryan's 2566v's with a stock 1749?

 

[Rub87]

first calculate the power needed for the mileage run, then choose HP turbo from there.. my bet would be something in the leage of a gtc1238vk or so on the other hand if rpm is high enough, the turbo doest really matter as the torque can be achieved easily at atm pressure the intake, then the best is to open the vanes to minimize pumping losses

 

[Whitbread]

first calculate the power needed for the mileage run, then choose HP turbo from there.. my bet would be something in the leage of a gtc1238vk or so on the other hand if rpm is high enough, the turbo doest really matter as the torque can be achieved easily at atm pressure the intake, then the best is to open the vanes to minimize pumping losses

Rpm at cruise for mileage run will be ~1800rpm at 65mph. Do you think the stock turbo would actually be too large? Aren't the 140hp cr bv43's around 35mm/47mm compressor wheels? Rough math says 55hp needed to maintain 2500lb vehicle at 65mph.

Bouncing ideas back and forth with Jfettig, We're highly considering using the V6 tdi biturbo compressor bypass valve. The EFR7064 running in single mode is still on the map in the 30-40lb/min range at the 3.5-4.5 PR range where it would be running at full tilt to get the needed air. An external wastegate would be used as the hp turbine bypass. Luckily, there is lots of space in the engine bay that's designed for a v8.

On second thought, why not just drop in a tourareg V10? They are very lightweight for the power output and drastically under-tuned from the factory.

Thought about it and would love to, but this car needs to set Guinness mpg records above all else. The v10 was also considered for the cadillac LMP car, but the audi V8 tdi will fit much better and not have cam wear issues.

 

[bhutchins]

Im unsure of the gear ratio on the Audi 01E, but the 2010 manual has higher gears than the 2009 see: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/09_10_TDIdifferences.htm. I havent finished tuning mine, but Storx dyno so far at 277 whp and ~400 wtq shows build #1 is completely do-able. With a Malone stage 1 1/2 tune, I achived 46 mpg with my 2010, and it was lots of fun in town. put that 2260vk on it, you will at least need a clutch upgrade.

 

[andy2]

Bouncing ideas back and forth with Jfettig, We're highly considering using the V6 tdi biturbo compressor bypass valve. The EFR7064 running in single mode is still on the map in the 30-40lb/min range at the 3.5-4.5 PR range where it would be running at full tilt to get the needed air. An external wastegate would be used as the hp turbine bypass. Luckily, there is lots of space in the engine bay that's designed for a v8.

Love this plan,May as well take advantage of the EFR's high PR capabilities .I guess the only concearn might be if the cyl head will hold the power in.It will be interesting to see if it holds with plenty of fuel and boost on the stock or even slightly lowered compression ratio.

 

[keaton]

DAMN YOU Whitebread!!! This is something that I have been wanting to build for a long time ... in fact that exact body (with some areo mods) to start with, then build some of my own designs... wanted to be the 1st on here to do it... oh well..

I would go with the the 3.0L V6 (there is no replacement for displacement) the Le Mans prototypes are using a 3.7L V6 and getting some really good number out of them..

There is also the 4.2L V8 TDI. & 6.0L V12

have you considered doing twin turbos that are not in compound mode, each bank of a 3.0L V6 getting a GTB2056vk or GTB2260vk?

Once you start building this there better picture galore! I don't car if your just putting a bolt in.... I wanna see it!!!

 

[Whitbread]

Im unsure of the gear ratio on the Audi 01E, but the 2010 manual has higher gears than the 2009 see: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/09_10_TDIdifferences.htm. I havent finished tuning mine, but Storx dyno so far at 277 whp and ~400 wtq shows build #1 is completely do-able. With a Malone stage 1 1/2 tune, I achived 46 mpg with my 2010, and it was lots of fun in town. put that 2260vk on it, you will at least need a clutch upgrade.

Already done the gear calcs, 1800rpm at 65mph. Everything outside of the motor is of no concern at this point

Love this plan,May as well take advantage of the EFR's high PR capabilities .I guess the only concearn might be if the cyl head will hold the power in.It will be interesting to see if it holds with plenty of fuel and boost on the stock or even slightly lowered compression ratio.

I'm liking it too the more I play around with setups and different turbo calculators. The simpler it is, the better.

I think some good head studs is all that should be needed with the pressure sensing glow plugs. Will be really cool to actually see cylinder pressures.

DAMN YOU Whitebread!!! This is something that I have been wanting to build for a long time ... in fact that exact body (with some areo mods) to start with, then build some of my own designs... wanted to be the 1st on here to do it... oh well..

I would go with the the 3.0L V6 (there is no replacement for displacement) the Le Mans prototypes are using a 3.7L V6 and getting some really good number out of them..

There is also the 4.2L V8 TDI. & 6.0L V12

have you considered doing twin turbos that are not in compound mode, each bank of a 3.0L V6 getting a GTB2056vk or GTB2260vk?

Once you start building this there better picture galore! I don't car if your just putting a bolt in.... I wanna see it!!!

Sorry . Look in the motorsports section, there's a sister car to this being built that will have ludicrous power

 

[keaton]

have you giving any thoughts to the 3.0L V6 or the 4.2L V8 TDI's?

 

[Rub87]

55hp sounds like alot for 65mph in a aero optimized body.. what fromtal eare an Cd does the car have?

 

[Ski in NC]

I think the super high CR pressures are more for emissions than power or bsfc. You could probably go with larger dia nozzles and run somewhat less cr pressure and get the same flow rate. Lowers the pumping work, which helps bsfc. Then when you want the power, ramp up rail pressure and you get the big flow through the big holes!!

 

[Rub87]

hassle from going to custom nozzle is not worth it imo.. smaller nozzles will allow less railpressure for good atomisation, rpm and load for the mileage run are low enough that there is plenty of time to get the fuel in, and thus better bsfc (altough a few hunder bar railpressure has quite marginal extra energy waste from the pump on the whole engine, and the benefit from better atomisation and burn usually equals this pretty much out.)

also dropping the cp4 for durability reasons seems a bit out of the box, mine going now for 155k km hard use and 1900 bar without issue, so for this car that need to cover only a few thousand miles I do not think it will be worth the hassle

for the turbos, ideally just use one very small for the mileage run so that at that speed/load you have greater boost than emp. then run a turbo like the efr7064 for the drag run and bypass the small one all the time.. just make sure the turbo is spooled at the line and do not shift out of the powerband =)

I have a new T4 twin scroll housing for the efr7064. if you might have a T3 one I would be more than happy to trade =)

 

[storx]

The gtb2260 works just mine cruising at 1800rpms on highway... I can go up pretty steep grades in 6th with no issues... It's only when I drop below 1700 it struggles to make enough boost... There are some steep hills I cruise up in 6th and I seen my boost gauge hit as high as 28psi at 1800rpms getting up the hill... Typically I'm between 4-11psi just coasting down highway

 

[1854sailor]

...Space, emissions, custom fabrication/machining are of no concern as budget and resources are pretty much unlimited...

Must be nice to get to work on a project like that!

 

[andy2]

for the turbos, ideally just use one very small for the mileage run so that at that speed/load you have greater boost than emp. then run a turbo like the efr7064 for the drag run and bypass the small one all the time.. just make sure the turbo is spooled at the line and do not shift out of the powerband =)

I would agree with this statement.It should produce the best of both worlds for your application.

 

[boog0614]

Do you think it is possible to put in a 4.2 tdi and achieve 40+ mpg either stock or possibly even detuned in this car with the 01E for the cross country part and then tune up the 4.2 for increased power (400+hp) afterwards? Maybe shoot for a sub 11 second 1/4 mile time with the same car that crossed the country. That would be pretty cool I would think and maybe not much more money than trying to pump up the 2.0l to 350whp. It would probably be a whole lot more drivable on the street with the extra displacement anyway versus a small motor with a monster turbo on it.

 

[kai.od.ua]

I think 3.0 is a golden mean.

 

[Whitbread]

I should've clarified, the 65 gallon mark was just a very rough maximum space possible turned into a fuel tank. Realistically, somewhere around 35-40 gallons is a realistic target for the fuel tank size if we can get mpg's where we need them.

The customer looked me up md we'll be chatting further on project goals.

If a 3.0 V6 can get the mileage we need, it may very well end up in there with twin turbos instead of the 2.0L. Sleep time now, math time tomorrow.

 

[Frankencar]

55hp sounds like alot for 65mph in a aero optimized body.. what fromtal eare an Cd does the car have?

Yes, what Frontal area and Cd? Weight isn't nearly as important as this.
For reference my MKII GTI is 1.91 M² and has a Cd of 0.34 and weighs 2380 lbs wet

The motor is a bit different (AHU + R520 + BV43...), and I'm guessing the CR will do better. I get anywhere from 52-68 MPG on the highway doing 55-75ish.

One thing I do know for sure is that my absolute best MPG ability was lost when going with the bigger holes, but the MPG at highway speed (1800ish) has improved a bit. I also think 55hp seems excessive. I bet you will need far less to cruise at 65 unless climbing a grade. I bet you could go a little nuts on the power mods and still get great MPG. the MPG is more in the driving technique than the mods. Who will be driving this across the country for MPG? do they regularly drive a TDI while focusing on MPG? I would bet 20% of my MPG is from driving technique.

And this is one cool project! you better keep us updated on hos it goes!

 

[boog0614]

Any updates?

 

[keaton]

any updates?

+1...

 

[Whitbread]

Motor is sitting on a pallet at work, it's supposedly one of the next projects in line .

 

[JFettig]

 

[Whitbread]

First off, sorry for having fallen off the face of the earth around here.

Second off, need some help from the electronic guru's around the globe. Car is running, but in limp mode.


I'll snap more pics tomorrow now that body is finished.




As far as what's there;
-immo deleted ecu
-VW glow plug module
-N75
-factory engine harness not messed with
-B1S1 02 sensor
-#1 egt sensor
-330 ohm resistors in place of egt sensors 2, 3, 4 giving reading of 165*C in vag com.

No other VW electronics/emissions hardware on car. Car runs smooth and fires right up, turbo is whistling away. Going out in parking lot, it's definitely in limp mode. Absolutely no balls. At this point I'm rather stumped as this is literally the first CR I've played with. I like my simple alh's .
Any help is much appreciated!

Here's the data log https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw00GsQ0O29aR1k0ZmlfTGJqQXM/edit?usp=sharing

These are only trouble codes;
009778 - Relay for Fuel Pump 2 (J49)
P2632 - 000 - Open Circuit - MIL ON

^ not hooked up

049154 - Powertrain Databus
U0002 - 000 - No Communications - MIL ON

001152 - Coolant Fan Control Circuit 1
P0480 - 000 - Electrical Malfunction
^ not hooked up

008581 - Engine Coolant Temp Sensor on Radiator Outlet (G83)
P2185 - 000 - Signal too High
^ not hooked up. This is only code I could really think of that would hinder full power operation. Any insight?

000321 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S2; Heating Circuit
P0141 - 000 - Malfunction
^ not hooked up

 

[oilhammer]

Are there any DTCs stored? If it is indeed in some sort of limp mode, it should have something to give you a clue, although I'm not sure what all the mods you've done would do or not do. Does it build boost?