CP3 Pump Install Experiments.**Big Picts**

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
Ready for CP3, VW content to wait for catatrophic fail of HPFP

I posted in the NHTSA post some more detail on my situation, but to summarize, I have metal appearing in my filter, this tells me, pump wear, and who knows how much longer until total failure.. NOT happy about the VW refusal to replace the pump.. apparently they need to see metal in the pump under the metering valve to justify a replacement. By then it is way too late of course.

I plan to go with the CP3, I just can't trust the car as it is, and this is not right on so many levels..

That said, I do have an idea to fix the CP4.x pumps. I will give it a try once I replace with a CP3, who knows, maybe BOSCH or VW will adopt it.

The failure from the pictures I've seen seems to show the roller going 90 degrees out and disintegrating the cam and itself in the process.

There is no key, and no anti-rotation feature in the design, but between full up and down on the cam cycle, the cam will tend to force alignment, but at top and bottom, it is clearly possible and seems proven that it may start to rotate the roller, and this cycle can wear the roller and cam surface unevenly, at some point enough wear occurs, where the rotation is able to make the full 90 turn, then there is NO WAY it goes back, and it rapidly fails... and we know the results from that.

Now, if the bottom of the piston had 2 rollers, not one, there would never be a chance for the spring to cause a twist at any point in the cam cycle. at least one roller is then at all times not at top or bottom of cycle, thus this mode of failure becomes impossible, and CP4.x becomes a potentially reliable design... BOSCH, VW, this is free engineering advice!! where do I send it!!
 

mr_y82

Veteran Member
Joined
May 19, 2013
Location
Western NC
TDI
Used to have... '11 Golf, 6-spd, 2-door
^there are some good pics of this damage around the forum... best of luck to you! sorry about your troubles.

glad you are helping VW solve their problems, lol. :)
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
CP3 Design appears to prevent need for timing.

I don't know what happened to the other hpfp swap thread, the one about the cp4.2 swap, but basically everything I said there applies here too. Reliability aside, what I got into there was pumping impulses vs injector firing impulses in the quest to support more hp. I'm not disputing that the cp3 is a better or more reliable design. But as far as supporting more horsepower, how can creating pressure when the injectors are not firing create more fuel available for when they do fire? It cannot, the pump is just dead headed momentarily. Without some way of accumulating that pressure, like a coiled steel line to the rail or something, CCs per pump revolution won't matter. CCs per degree of rotation in the window the injector is firing will. As in the other thread, the cp4.1 has to be timed to the crank for this exact reason, the motor won't run if it is not. Reading that the cp4.1 has to be timed or the motor won't run is what made me start thinking about all of this, and thinking that the factory accumulator does not actually accumulate pressure. Looking at the cummins, the cp3 pistons pump fuel every 120 degrees, just like the firing impulses of the inline 6. Same with the BMW. And the ford and duramax went to the cp4.2s because they have firing impules every 90 degrees, just like the pumping impulses of the double piston, double lobed cp4.2s. The cp3 in a 4 cyl application was described as running at 2/3 crank speed because 120/180 is 2/3. Again, I'm not disputing improved reliability of the cp3 pump, just commenting on the way the fuel pressure is created vs the way the injectors use it up. I am not in any way attemtping to discredit any of the work put forth in this thread, just trying to provide food for thought. In the cp4.2 thread, I wanted to write that a modded cp4.1 with increased displacement (longer stroke, bigger bore) would be a more efficient, although probably less reliable way to support more hp on a 4 cyl than a cp4.2 or cp3 without a way to "accumulate" pressure, like the coiled line thing I mentioned before.
I was very interested in this analysis, and not seeing a specific reply to your concern, I will add one here.. the CP4.x pumps do have impulse and thus timing, as they are CAM/Roller pump action, meaning they are not pumping at some point in rotation (with fewer than 3 pistons at the respective low end of cam rotation there is a finite delay until next pump cycle for CP4.1/2).. The CP3 is not a cam at all, it is a crank shaft driven pump, where there is always some stage of pumping, continuously during rotation.. the 120deg spacing ensures this, as it rotates, when one piston is fully driven, the next piston has also just begun in compression stroke, there is no definitive stop in compression of the high pressure side, as there is with CP4.1/2. I would assume the testing phase and performance are showing this. Being a positive displacement, the pressure builds near instantly at the first movement of the piston, thus there should literally be no gaps in pressurization/flow in the CP3 pump. Also, the CP3 was used on both 8 cylinder, and 6 cylinder engines, and it appears there was no specific need to time it on some other applications, which makes sense given the crankshaft action/120deg 3 piston, vice the cam action 1 or 2 piston (90deg) action of the CP4.x series pumps.

Having said that, there would be some capacity/volume fluctuations as the piston moves in a sinusoidal manner, and peak volume rate is at the halfway between un-compressed and fully compressed of 3 each piston, 3 times per rotation, so I can see in an application that pushed the flow limits of the CP3 timing could be an advantage, but given the use here where we are seeing a pump with considerable additional volume beyond the stock CP4.1 for the 2.0TDI, I don't think we would ever notice this without some really aggressive tuning.

I found this article somewhat helpful in getting a look at the CP3: http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/parts-accessories/1204dp-inside-the-bosch-cp3-injection-pump/
 

YukonLT

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Location
N/A
TDI
2010 Golf TDI 6MT
I was very interested in this analysis, and not seeing a specific reply to your concern, I will add one here.. the CP4.x pumps do have impulse and thus timing, as they are CAM/Roller pump action, meaning they are not pumping at some point in rotation (with fewer than 3 pistons at the respective low end of cam rotation there is a finite delay until next pump cycle for CP4.1/2).. The CP3 is not a cam at all, it is a crank shaft driven pump, where there is always some stage of pumping, continuously during rotation.. the 120deg spacing ensures this, as it rotates, when one piston is fully driven, the next piston has also just begun in compression stroke, there is no definitive stop in compression of the high pressure side, as there is with CP4.1/2. I would assume the testing phase and performance are showing this. Being a positive displacement, the pressure builds near instantly at the first movement of the piston, thus there should literally be no gaps in pressurization/flow in the CP3 pump. Also, the CP3 was used on both 8 cylinder, and 6 cylinder engines, and it appears there was no specific need to time it on some other applications, which makes sense given the crankshaft action/120deg 3 piston, vice the cam action 1 or 2 piston (90deg) action of the CP4.x series pumps.

Having said that, there would be some capacity/volume fluctuations as the piston moves in a sinusoidal manner, and peak volume rate is at the halfway between un-compressed and fully compressed of 3 each piston, 3 times per rotation, so I can see in an application that pushed the flow limits of the CP3 timing could be an advantage, but given the use here where we are seeing a pump with considerable additional volume beyond the stock CP4.1 for the 2.0TDI, I don't think we would ever notice this without some really aggressive tuning.

I found this article somewhat helpful in getting a look at the CP3: http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/parts-accessories/1204dp-inside-the-bosch-cp3-injection-pump/
Great explanation :)
 

schreibers

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2011 JSW TDI
I've seen a few posted CP3 installs on race pipe equipped cars, but I haven't seen any yet on cars with both EGR/ASV intact. Anybody out there?

WalkenDrukn and I installed mine yesterday and the pump install wasn't too bad. We spent a lot of time on the timing belt R&R to make sure everything was good to go (first time for both of us). EGR valve was a whole different ball of wax along with hard line which connects CP3 to the rail.

I've only got 100 miles on it but the quality of the kit is top notch.
 

YukonLT

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Nov 28, 2012
Location
N/A
TDI
2010 Golf TDI 6MT
I've seen a few posted CP3 installs on race pipe equipped cars, but I haven't seen any yet on cars with both EGR/ASV intact. Anybody out there?

WalkenDrukn and I installed mine yesterday and the pump install wasn't too bad. We spent a lot of time on the timing belt R&R to make sure everything was good to go (first time for both of us). EGR valve was a whole different ball of wax along with hard line which connects CP3 to the rail.

I've only got 100 miles on it but the quality of the kit is top notch.
Andrew (2Micron) is running the CP3 on a completely stock car.
 

UberVW_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2010 Golf Variant TDI
I've seen a few posted CP3 installs on race pipe equipped cars, but I haven't seen any yet on cars with both EGR/ASV intact. Anybody out there?

I just installed Andrew's CP3 kit with my EGR/ASV intact!!!

Since I'm at 123,000 miles I also replaced the timing belt with a quality kit from Diesel Geek (INA rollers & tensioner with Gates TB & serpentine belt...OEM TTY replacement nuts/bolts).

After the CP3 installation, the engine seems to start up slightly faster. It always started quick...but it's now firing up immediately. Also the engine feels a bit more responsive as well. Nothing drastic...but definitely running strong. I'm very happy with the modification!! This is exactly what is needed to remove a huge failure item on the CR TDI.

As YukonLT and now schreibers have stated, Andrew's kit is top notch! Good job Andrew for your efforts in making this kit a reality!!

Here is to the beginning of many more CP3 CR TDI's on the road!!!
 

Perry01

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Location
Hawaii/Utah
TDI
2012 Golf DSG w/tech package
I just installed Andrew's CP3 kit with my EGR/ASV intact!!!
Since I'm at 123,000 miles I also replaced the timing belt with a quality kit from Diesel Geek!
How difficult was the installation and how long did it take?
.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
You should contact Andrew (2micron) for pricing.
 

YukonLT

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Location
N/A
TDI
2010 Golf TDI 6MT
I just installed Andrew's CP3 kit with my EGR/ASV intact!!!
Since I'm at 123,000 miles I also replaced the timing belt with a quality kit from Diesel Geek (INA rollers & tensioner with Gates TB & serpentine belt...OEM TTY replacement nuts/bolts).
After the CP3 installation, the engine seems to start up slightly faster. It always started quick...but it's now firing up immediately. Also the engine feels a bit more responsive as well. Nothing drastic...but definitely running strong. I'm very happy with the modification!! This is exactly what is needed to remove a huge failure item on the CR TDI.
As YukonLT and now schreibers have stated, Andrew's kit is top notch! Good job Andrew for your efforts in making this kit a reality!!
Here is to the beginning of many more CP3 CR TDI's on the road!!!
Congrats on the install! Many miles of happy driving ahead of you now :)
 

UberVW_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2010 Golf Variant TDI
How difficult was the installation and how long did it take?
.

It took most of the weekend. Wrenching on cars is a hobby of mine...so I like to take my time and not rush though things.

If you can change the timing belt, you can do this CP3 install as well.

myturbodiesel.com has a great timing belt "how to" w/ video to see whats involved on the CR TDI.
 

schreibers

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2011 JSW TDI
It took most of the weekend. Wrenching on cars is a hobby of mine...so I like to take my time and not rush though things.
If you can change the timing belt, you can do this CP3 install as well.
myturbodiesel.com has a great timing belt "how to" w/ video to see whats involved on the CR TDI.
The Myturbodiesel Timing Belt tutorial and video was invaluable to me during my install and (well worth the membership price to support the community). :)
 

jason_

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Location
michigan
TDI
2015 s wagon dsg
The Myturbodiesel Timing Belt tutorial and video was invaluable to me during my install and (well worth the membership price to support the community). :)
If I remember the YouTube video correctly, he explains the cam rotates twice. :)

Sent from my One using Tapatalk
 

hotpocketdeath

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Location
Suwanee, GA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
I'm convinced to do this with my car.

I'm just about to do my 80k service this weekend, so it might be a while till I change it out.

Does anyone have a part number for the correct pump? Or even better, a source to buy the pump?
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
You'll need Andrew's(2micron) kit to adapt the cp3 to the cr tdi's. ID parts also sells the cp3 pump (no adapter parts). It is a much higher quality pump than the cp4, and that is reflected in the price.
 

hotpocketdeath

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Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Location
Suwanee, GA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
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hotpocketdeath

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Mar 18, 2010
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Suwanee, GA
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2010 Golf TDI

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
There are numerous versions of the cp3 hpfp. Only one works with Andrews kit as far as I know. He should be back from vacation next week. Your best bet is to contact him then.
 

Perry01

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Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Location
Hawaii/Utah
TDI
2012 Golf DSG w/tech package
I wonder if Andrew sells remanufactured or new?
Actually, I do not believe that Andrew sells the pumps at all (new or re-man). What he designed, tested, and sells (or will sell - hopefully) is an adapter kit necessary to use a "mini" CP3.2 pump in our cars. IIRC, YukonLT sourced his CP3.2 from some place in the UK. Check out his install thread, it might have more info on how (and where) he got his pump. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=444018

Have Fun!

Don
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Once the kits go into full production, I think they will include the pump. My kit came from Andrew with a new, not reman. , bosch pump. Plus a lot of goodies (including a beautiful 2micron filter head) to complete the install. I think the kits are very close to going full production. He may just be waiting on patents to go through.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
It appears that vBulletin did something weird above. Post #207 was written by me, but when I edited it to add the URL, somehow "ownership" changed. It now says that it was posted by Perry01 with his signature. I have no idea where vBulletin got his name and why it is there. I hope he doesn't object to what I said. I am the moderator of this forum, but even I can't change the name of the poster of this message. Interesting.

Once the kits go into full production, I think they will include the pump. My kit came from Andrew with a new, not reman. , bosch pump. Plus a lot of goodies (including a beautiful 2micron filter head) to complete the install. I think the kits are very close to going full production. He may just be waiting on patents to go through.
Cool, that would be nice.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Perry01

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Feb 12, 2015
Location
Hawaii/Utah
TDI
2012 Golf DSG w/tech package
It appears that vBulletin did something weird above. Post #207 was written by me, but when I edited it to add the URL, somehow "ownership" changed. It now says that it was posted by Perry01 with his signature. I have no idea where vBulletin got his name and why it is there. I hope he doesn't object to what I said. I am the moderator of this forum, but even I can't change the name of the poster of this message. Interesting.
Indeed interesting. My post disappeared. I asked if Andrew's pump was new or remanufactured and it shows you quoting hotpocketdeath as asking the question....
.
 
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