pkhoury
That guy with the goats
Yeah, I'm probably due for one, then.
CP3 fuel pump upgrade thread
- Thread starter YukonLT
- Start date
Tuheeden
Veteran Member
The Whitbread kit uses a remanufactured pump from United Diesel. I have 5 of them and 100k+ miles with no issues. I have not tried the BMW CP3, I think that is a newer option. You can drop a CP3 in on a totally stock engine with no tune and it works fine. I like it better with a 2200mb rail pressure sensor upgrade and a tune but you can still stay totally stock.
T1MMBOJONES
Veteran Member
thank you, had no idea it had an internal lift pump.
T1MMBOJONES
Veteran Member
so typically i kinda baby my car, or any diesel ive owned/own, until its "warmed up" even in the summer months there is a threshold of time that it just feels sluggish until it reaches temp. yesterday i was on my way home from a buddies house and pulled out in front of someone who was going faster than i realized, and the limit for that matter, so i punched it. upon doing so i got the flashing glow plug light. it was only about a half block til a stoplight, people in milwaukee literally speed even to red lights, at the light i killed the engine quick and restarted it and the light went away. it never had an engine light but it did store p0087 fuel rail pressure too low. somewhat recently i read the temp sensor can be too restrictive to the cp3, have any of you ended up deleting this? or had similar instances?
Tuheeden
Veteran Member
I have only had low fuel pressure on the CP3 if there is a leak, a faulty rail sensor, mixed up fuel filter hoses or a kink or some obstruction in the fuel line. Which CP3 are you using?
T1MMBOJONES
Veteran Member
whitbreads kit, I have 5,000 miles on the swap this is my first issue. I marked all my lines pre swap and believe it to be accurate, no leaks either. guess ill hope it was a fluke
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coolusername
Veteran Member
Hi, so I've currently got a CP3, XMan Hybrid, 4 bar MAP, whole nine yards. The setup performs excellently, except I'm hitting EGT limits at high RPM. Malone is willing to do the 2200 bar tune for me, but I'm struggling to find resources on the exact part number / link to a 2200 bar sensor that will work for my CJAA. Do you have a link to the exact one you bought?
Here are the few links I found, are either of these the right part?
Genuine VAG 2200 Bar Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor | Diesel DNA Tuning :: VW TDI Parts and Tuning
Genuine VAG 2200 Bar 3.0 TDI Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
Genuine VAG 2200 BAR Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk
Thank you so much, you've already been super helpful with your other comments regarding the CP3 and XMan Hybrid.
calimustang
Veteran Member
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- May 17, 2010
- Location
- Central FL
- TDI
- 2011 JSW DSG (buyback, RIP), 2014 JSW TDI, 2015 Passat TDI, 2013 Jetta TDI.
actually get this, https://www.darksidedevelopments.co...bar-2-0-tdi-cr-fuel-rail-pressure-sensor.html
that's what I have.
that's what I have.
Will it work without being tuned if your stage 2 already with cp3?
coolusername
Veteran Member
Alright, the sensor is on the way! Thanks
Tdimrtwo
Veteran Member
I have a 2010 JSW with a locked up engine and a “good” 88k mile CJAA engine that I plan to swap out soon. I also want to do the CP4 to CP3 hpfp swap to avoid the CP4 metal shavings nightmare that I’ve read and heard so much about.
1. Would it be better/easier to do the CP3 swap on the new engines before I install it, or is it just as easy with the engine installed?
2. I’ve read that you both need a tune and don’t need a tune to make it run well with the CP3 swap (without a cel). Whitbread’s website says a tune is needed, so what is the best/least expensive tune for fuel economy and driveability, not really looking for power gains.
3. What kind of vehicle can be a donor for a used CP3 hpfp? Whitbread lists two compatible Bosch part numbers, but doesn’t say what the pumps were used on. I believe I’d rather source my own local HPFP than get the rebuilt one from England that whitbread sells. I understand that CP3 pumps were at least used on BMW’s and domestic pickups, but I don’t know if all CP3’s are the same.
Any info or advice on what I may be missing would be greatly appreciated.
1. Would it be better/easier to do the CP3 swap on the new engines before I install it, or is it just as easy with the engine installed?
2. I’ve read that you both need a tune and don’t need a tune to make it run well with the CP3 swap (without a cel). Whitbread’s website says a tune is needed, so what is the best/least expensive tune for fuel economy and driveability, not really looking for power gains.
3. What kind of vehicle can be a donor for a used CP3 hpfp? Whitbread lists two compatible Bosch part numbers, but doesn’t say what the pumps were used on. I believe I’d rather source my own local HPFP than get the rebuilt one from England that whitbread sells. I understand that CP3 pumps were at least used on BMW’s and domestic pickups, but I don’t know if all CP3’s are the same.
Any info or advice on what I may be missing would be greatly appreciated.
panchinho
Member
It's not a bad idea to read the thread, at least the posts made over the last year, before asking a question. If you do, you'll find the answers to most, if not all, of your questions regarding the CP3 conversion, and you'd also discover you could get a kit from a U.S. manufacturer that uses a Bosh CP3 for BMWs that's readily available in the U.S.
Tuheeden
Veteran Member
In case anyone is wondering on the fuel rail pressure sensor:Hi, so I've currently got a CP3, XMan Hybrid, 4 bar MAP, whole nine yards. The setup performs excellently, except I'm hitting EGT limits at high RPM. Malone is willing to do the 2200 bar tune for me, but I'm struggling to find resources on the exact part number / link to a 2200 bar sensor that will work for my CJAA. Do you have a link to the exact one you bought?
Here are the few links I found, are either of these the right part?
Genuine VAG 2200 Bar Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor | Diesel DNA Tuning :: VW TDI Parts and TuningGenuine VAG 2200 Bar 3.0 TDI Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
Genuine VAG 2200 BAR Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
Thank you so much, you've already been super helpful with your other comments regarding the CP3 and XMan Hybrid.
03L906051 - 2k stock pressure
04L906054 -2.2k upgraded rail
Both are stock VAG part numbers.
There is a 2700mb sensor but you need different injectors to go beyond 2000mb, so don't bother. There is no benefit to having a 2700mb sensor with 2000mb injectors.
You MUST get a tune if you change the rail sensor or bad things can happen...
Tdimrtwo
Veteran Member
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I’ve read the thread from end to end, all 822 posts. (Insomnia lately). The first post was from 2015, and there seems to be a fair amount of outdated and/or contradictory information presented, i.e. does 2micron still sell a CP3 conversion kit, and is his namesake filter still available? Also, if you read my questions carefully, I don’t think any of them have clear answers in the thread. For example, I don’t recall any posts contrasting CP3 installation with engine out vs engine installed, (question #1). There are contradictory posts about whether a tune is needed to avoid a CEL, (question #2) and no posts that I saw listed which vehicles used CP3 pumps suitable for the conversion (question #3) Maybe I’m asking the wrong questions or just dumb questions, but I don’t believe they’ve been clearly answered in the thread.
calimustang
Veteran Member
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- 2011 JSW DSG (buyback, RIP), 2014 JSW TDI, 2015 Passat TDI, 2013 Jetta TDI.
No….. 2micron is gone since dieselgate hit. But he does come around from time to time.
panchinho
Member
If you go to 2microns' website, it's clear it's no longer in business.
The best person to ask whether a tune is necessary is a tuner (Malone Tuning offers the CP3 option). That you can replace the CP4 with a CP3 and the car runs, does not mean the car is running as it should.
Most any repair or modification to an engine is much easier when the engine is out of the car. I can't think of one that is easier when the engine is installed. So, yes, it will be easier to do with the engine not in the car.
I wrote a post in this thread on July 19, 2023 that mentions the U.S. based company that offers the CP3 conversion kit that uses the CP3 for North American BMWs. The video linked in that post has the part number for the Bosch CP3 pump for North American BMWs. I think the part number is also listed on that company's website. This kit is also sold on two other sites, Stevens Tuning (or something to that effect), and Cascade German (https://www.cascadegerman.com/product/vw-bmw-cp3-conversion-kit-cbea-cjaa-ckra/). I'd buy the pump from FCP Euro as they offer a lifetime guarantee, and it's new from Bosch, and is not rebuilt. I would not buy it from the same vender that sells the kit. You'll pay quite a bit more for the same pump and have no lifetime warranty.
The kit shows that it's out of stock at Fisher Motor Works. I don't know if the other resellers have it in stock.
I just had this kit and pump installed on my car, and the mechanic, who's installed CP3 conversion kits from other venders, said it's much better and easier to install. I'm having Malone Tuning do the tune.
Hope this helps.
Tdimrtwo
Veteran Member
Thanks for the reply. What I’m actually trying to figure out is which vehicles use a suitable CP3 HPFP, so that I can look for a low miles used one. I could just try to match up the Bosch part numbers, but it would be far easier to know which vehicles to start looking at. As far as in the car vs out of the car, I can think of at least a half-dozen mods and/or repairs that are much easier/safer to do with the engine in the car, but it’s nice to know that the CP3 conversion isn’t one of them. (For example, I currently have a MB OM627 Sprinter engine on an engine stand that I very nearly capsized trying to break loose the harmonic balancer. I ended up getting someone to hold the engine stand still with a long lever while I broke loose the bolt, would have a piece of cake with engine in the van).
Personally, my first resource on whether a tune is beneficial would be the company that sells the conversion package rather than the tuner who stands to profit from selling an unnecessary tune. Next in line would be mechanics and end users who have personally done the conversions and had to live with the results. Lastly, I would ask a tuner based on their level of experience with the CP3 conversions. Some tuners may not do many conversions, and there are several posts which state that a tune just isn’t needed.
Personally, my first resource on whether a tune is beneficial would be the company that sells the conversion package rather than the tuner who stands to profit from selling an unnecessary tune. Next in line would be mechanics and end users who have personally done the conversions and had to live with the results. Lastly, I would ask a tuner based on their level of experience with the CP3 conversions. Some tuners may not do many conversions, and there are several posts which state that a tune just isn’t needed.
Tdimrtwo
Veteran Member
My dilemma is whether to do the CP3 conversion now with the engine out or to install the new engine and get it running, then do the CP3 conversion. Since it appears that I really don’t gain much by doing the CP3 conversion with the engine out I think I’ll do the engine swap and get the car running with the existing CP4 pump, then order and install the Whitbread kit once I know everything is working. I think this keeps things simpler, and limits the number of things that I have to deal with at one time. Also, if I run into an issue with the new engine that I can’t resolve, I haven’t wasted time and money on a CP3 pump that I can’t use. Does this seem reasonable, am I missing anything?
panchinho
Member
Hello. You could use the part number for the CP3 pump I mentioned and use it to look for the vehicles that use it. Most vendors show the vehicles a part is compatible with. I looked for used ones first. It's not worth saving $100-$200.00 for a used one with unknown miles (if you happen to believe the seller) considering the damage it can do to the fueling system. If the car's been wrecked and the engine's good with low miles, the pump is sold with the engine. If a seller says the used pump has low miles, I would be very skeptical. Who replaces a good CP3 with another CP3 and sell then used one?
Use an impact wrench instead of a breaker bar.
If the company that sells the CP3 conversion kit hasn't run logs after installing it and determined all is well, then they can't say for certain it does or does not need a tune. It also might be in the interest of this company to say no tune is necessary so that a potential client is not deterred from purchasing the kit, thereby reducing their profit. All companies have a profit motive.
If the system is not thoroughly checked via logs after installing the CP3, then there is no way a seller of a CP3 kit, a mechanic, or a tuner can say a tune is or is not necessary.
If you get the Whitebread one, you'll need the CP3 from Europe. Good luck with warranty issues, and with getting a good rebuilt one, which is pretty much the best you'll be able to get. I don't think they sell that CP3 new anymore. They're from older cars, so ... Another note on the WB one. That kit looks like a rough draft of someone's vision of what it should look like. The one from Fisher Motor Works is better on every level.
It seems to me you're making this much more complicated and costlier in the long run than it needs to be. Whatever you do, just make a decision and do it. If you like having problems, complicated installations, cutting and modifying OE parts to get a kit to work, paying more for a rebuilt CP3 and sending your it to Europe for warranty work, and an amateur-looking kit, you should stick to your current plan.
Use an impact wrench instead of a breaker bar.
If the company that sells the CP3 conversion kit hasn't run logs after installing it and determined all is well, then they can't say for certain it does or does not need a tune. It also might be in the interest of this company to say no tune is necessary so that a potential client is not deterred from purchasing the kit, thereby reducing their profit. All companies have a profit motive.
If the system is not thoroughly checked via logs after installing the CP3, then there is no way a seller of a CP3 kit, a mechanic, or a tuner can say a tune is or is not necessary.
If you get the Whitebread one, you'll need the CP3 from Europe. Good luck with warranty issues, and with getting a good rebuilt one, which is pretty much the best you'll be able to get. I don't think they sell that CP3 new anymore. They're from older cars, so ... Another note on the WB one. That kit looks like a rough draft of someone's vision of what it should look like. The one from Fisher Motor Works is better on every level.
It seems to me you're making this much more complicated and costlier in the long run than it needs to be. Whatever you do, just make a decision and do it. If you like having problems, complicated installations, cutting and modifying OE parts to get a kit to work, paying more for a rebuilt CP3 and sending your it to Europe for warranty work, and an amateur-looking kit, you should stick to your current plan.
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turbobrick240
Top Post Dawg
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- maine
- TDI
- 2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
You can still get the Citroen/Peugeot R70 CP3 pumps new from Europe. Anyone expecting warranty coverage on a part retrofitted onto a vehicle never intended for it needs to put their pipe away.
panchinho
Member
That's not true. FCP Euro does not request information on the application when warrantying a part they sold that fails. If the part fails, they replace it. Period.
FCP Euro Lifetime Auto Parts Replacement Guarantee | FCP Euro
Every product you buy from FCP Euro is guaranteed for life for your ownership of the vehicle. This lifetime replacement guarantee covers everything we sell, including wear-and-tear items like brake pads, gaskets, rotors, filters, and wiper blades.
www.fcpeuro.com
Tdimrtwo
Veteran Member
Please bear in mind that this is my first experience with a CJAA. While I’ve got a fair amount of experience with ALH’s, BEWs, and I currently have a CRUA in my 210k miles GSW, I’m a newbie on CJAA’s. I’m not trying to overcomplicate things, I just want to give myself the best chance for success, given my relative lack of experience with the CJAA.
A quick eBay search for VW CP3 pumps showed 22 pumps for sale, most with a listing of the donor vehicle or the vehicles it could be used on. Also, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen “good” engines for sale without their HPFP, but I can’t totally swear to that.
Initially, I thought that Whitbread only sold conversion kits, but now I see that they also offer a reman pump from United Diesel with a one year warranty. So I’d probably buy them together, if I go the WB route. The kit is advertised as in-house CNC milled, and their pictures look fine to me, but I haven’t haven’t compared it to the Fisher Motor Works kit yet
I’m not overly concerned about appearance, my priorities are fitness for purpose and performance. Tuheeden says he has 5 WB kits installed with no issues after 100k, which seems like a pretty good recommendation. He also says
“You can drop a CP3 in on a totally stock engine with no tune and it works fine. I like it better with a 2200mb rail pressure sensor upgrade and a tune but you can still stay totally stock.” So I think I’ll eventually go that route.
I don’t really have a means to evaluate conversion vendors and tuners data logging, about all I can do is ask for advice about what works best from others who have done it before
FYI, my 250 ft-lb “earthquake” impact wrench wouldn’t budge the MB crankshaft bolt, so I had to resort to breaker bars, counter holding the flywheel, and extreme leverage. If I have to do it again, I’ll try to use the starter to break it loose with the engine installed.
.
turbobrick240
Top Post Dawg
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- 2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I was just referring to manufacturer warranties. But FCP Euro probably assumes the parts they warranty are being used for their intended application. If a handful of their clientele take questionable advantage of their policy it won't break them.
panchinho
Member
Why on earth would anyone pay approximately $950.00 (tax and shipping) for a CP3 conversion kit + a remanufactured CP3 from WB that looks like a prototype and based on pumps available primarily in Europe that requires cutting a connecter and and grinding a part to get it to work when you can get a CP3 kit that is much better, does not require cutting or grinding anything, plus a CP3 from North America that has a lifetime warranty for approximately $1,100.00?
You could get the same CP3 (the one for North American BMWs) new from RockAuto for about $100.00 less that the one from FCP without the lifetime warranty and drop the total cost to $1,000.00, approximately.
It's clear you haven't read the installation guide or watched the video of someone installing the WB kit. You said you've read this thread from end to end. Had you, you would have, and you would have checked out the Fisher Motor Works option.
I frankly couldn't care less which kit you choose, you just make no sense given that you wanted to do it as cheaply as possible and were considering getting a used pump, but now are considering getting both the kit and a rebuilt pump from WB to save about $100.00 over getting new pump that's easily available in the States. It's your time and money to waste.
A tuner would have the "means to evaluate ... data logging", which is why you should contact a few that do the CP3 tuning to find out why they think it would be necessary. If the others who have done it before "don't have a means to evaluate ... data logging", their opinion is of no value. You need to ask a tuner who's done it: 1. Is it necessary, and 2. If it is, why, not some guy who did on on Saturday in his garage at home and hoped for the best. That it runs afterwards, does not mean all is well.
Before making additional questions, you really need to do your homework first and stop wasting other people's time.
coolusername
Veteran Member
Holy moly, not enough people talk about how nice the 2200 bar sensor is. Installed it and my car definitely runs smoother. Slightly better throttle response too. This was like the finishing touch, icing on the cake that made my XMan Hybrid setup perfect. Now I can floor it anywhere, everywhere, up and down and I won't hit the EGT limiter. And when I'm driving the car gently it's like it's not even modified.
coolusername
Veteran Member
Dude, you don't have to be such a dick about this. This forum is here for questions and help.
As for my personal experience I'll say that I ran a Whitbread kit on my car, fully stock, no tune, for about four months with zero issues. I think that's enough time to say that it's working as it should. I later tuned it, and yeah, the tune is necessary if you want to actually take advantage of the CP3 when making power, but stock it's perfectly fine.
Tdimrtwo
Veteran Member
At the risk of wasting everyone's time, I'm going to address your comments in order paragraph by paragraph.
I don't really know why people chose the WB conversion instead of the FMW kit, but obviously a whole lot of them did. Maybe, like me, they didn't know about the FMW kits, maybe the 20% difference in price was the deciding factor, or maybe the fact that the FMW kits often seem to be out of stock, but I'd guess that Whitbread just came out first and is better established and does a better job marketing their product. Also, 2microns original (I think) instructions reference the WB kit.
The Rock Auto CP3 sounds like a good deal, but $100 more for a lifetime guarantee from FCP is hard to pass up. Unless, you believe as I do, that the CP3 is pretty unlikely to ever fail. I've had 4 ALH's, a BEW, a CRUA and a Mercedes OM647 all with Bosh IP's or HPFP's, and in about 15 years, I've never had one fail.
I have indeed read the installation guide from the Whitbread Website (2micron's pdf) twice now and the thread end to end, so pretty much the only thing that you got right about me is that I haven't watched any videos on either the WB or FMW installations. I didn't recall seeing anything in the 2micron instructions that greatly concerned me, but I went back and watched it again today to see what I might have missed. Yes, you still have to grind 1/16" off the mounting bracket and still have to cut off part of a wiring connector for egr clearance, but this seems a small price to pay to prevent the CP4 $3500 catastrophic failure. Of course, now that I know there's another option, if possible, I'd prefer not to cut and grind. As for not picking up on the FMW option, If you look at your post you'll notice that your reference was in a series of posts about a "14 ckra nms passat". I didn't pay much attention to it since I don't have a Passat with a CKRA engine. But I went back and read the post again today, and I now see that at the very end of the post you mention just purchasing one for a CJAA application. Yep, I missed that first time around.
I just don't believe you when you say "I frankly couldn't care less which kit you choose". You obviously believe the FMW kit is superior to the WB kit and are trying to convince people to go that route. However, you have completely misunderstood my objectives. I don't advocate doing anything as cheaply as possible without regard to quality. Like everyone else, I'm looking for the best solution at the best price.
I still don't really want to spend my time interrogating tuners on their data logging practices, if that's what you're suggesting. I'm not sure I even really understand what you mean. What parameters would you expect them to log? EGT's? fuel rail pressures? injector flow? I feel like I'm missing something here.
You say I need to do my homework before I ask any more questions to stop wasting everyones time. That's a pretty vague statement. What homework precisely do I need to do to be able to ask questions that don't waste time? I'll meet you halfway. Why don't I tell you what I think I know and you can tell me what I still need to learn and point me in the right direction to learn it.
VW put Bosch CP4 HPFP's on their Mark 6 common rail TDI engines from 2010 to 2014. These were higher pressure single piston units that had a design flaw and could fail catastrophically scattering metal shavings throughout the entire fuel system, resulting in repair costs as high as $11,000. VW covered many of these under the extended emissions warranty, but those warranties are now mostly expired. 2micron developed a filter to catch the debris before it spread and later was instrumental in developing one of the original CP3 conversion kits to eliminate the problem entirely. The Whitbread kit used a CP3 pump from European Puegot's and Citreons rebuilt by United Diesel in England and required some minor bracket grinding and connector cutting to make it fit. Meanwhile, Fisher Motor Works and Darkside Development began offering a conversion kit using a BMW CP3 pump that didn't require any modifications but which required the use of the stock intermediate fuel pump. The CP3 conversion vendors and most users say that a tune isn't required, but highly recommended as well as a higher 2200 bar fuel pressure sensor. This combination improves drivability and gains around 20 HP.
So what do I still need to learn?
Also, I have some unsolicited and likely unwelcome advice: Asking a novice to go through the thread to get up to speed on CP3 conversions is totally unrealistic. There are nearly 900 posts starting in 2015 and the thread is chock full of outdated and contradictory information. You can find a post supporting just about every possible position on every subject. It's OK as a discussion starter and good to highlight the issues, but that's about it.
lemoncurd
Veteran Member
here is a OEM 2700 bar sensor for far cheaper than darkside. PNHi, so I've currently got a CP3, XMan Hybrid, 4 bar MAP, whole nine yards. The setup performs excellently, except I'm hitting EGT limits at high RPM. Malone is willing to do the 2200 bar tune for me, but I'm struggling to find resources on the exact part number / link to a 2200 bar sensor that will work for my CJAA. Do you have a link to the exact one you bought?
Here are the few links I found, are either of these the right part?
Genuine VAG 2200 Bar Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor | Diesel DNA Tuning :: VW TDI Parts and TuningGenuine VAG 2200 Bar 3.0 TDI Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
Genuine VAG 2200 BAR Common Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
Thank you so much, you've already been super helpful with your other comments regarding the CP3 and XMan Hybrid.
03N906054
@calimustang cc
calimustang
Veteran Member
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- Central FL
- TDI
- 2011 JSW DSG (buyback, RIP), 2014 JSW TDI, 2015 Passat TDI, 2013 Jetta TDI.
nice! how did that work out for you? any tuning needed?
lemoncurd
Veteran Member
i havent used it yet, just saw discussion about the rail pressure sensor and thought i'd dig the specific PN out of my notes. it drives me mad darkside sells it at such a markup...
however, i will be buying that sensor before my next t-belt service. as i will be putting the CP3 in then. at 223k miles now, nearly 224k. next service at 239-240k! coming up quick....