Cool piston tech

[shoebear]

Too bad they aren't still doing the Mythbusters show. That would be a good one. Two brand new engines run side by side in dyno cells with full instrumentation.

The initial diesel engine test of the pistons was on gigantic mining dump trucks with CAT engines. The mine was having problems with some of their newer engines where the rings would get fouled with carbon and break (if I remember right). They rebuilt two of the CAT engines identically except for the pistons and ran a test for some number of operating hours. The Speed of Air pistons solved the ring carbon fouling. The company also does oil analysis to determine oil change intervals, and the SoA engine required fewer than half the changes of the other engine and might have gone longer, except that they hit a CAT max hours limit well before the analysis indicated a change needed. The SoA engine also got considerably better fuel economy, but I don't think they documented it at the time because that wasn't the problem they were trying to solve. Since the trucks are worth a large number of dollars per hour to the mine, at the end of the test, the mine said the savings in downtime on the extra oil changes alone paid for the SoA pistons.

You should watch the video I posted. It goes into lots of details.

 

[adjat84th]

You should watch the video I posted. It goes into lots of details.

A lot of "details" by the CEO, and zero data of apples to apples comparisons. Meanwhile Dave and his boys just eat up the sales pitch as if it's their first time seeing sliced bread.
When we see a coated stock piston running gapless rings, compared to a SOA dimpled version..then we'll get a true comparison.

 

[lemoncurd]

A lot of "details" by the CEO, and zero data of apples to apples comparisons. Meanwhile Dave and his boys just eat up the sales pitch as if it's their first time seeing sliced bread.
When we see a coated stock piston running gapless rings, compared to a SOA dimpled version..then we'll get a true comparison.

actually, we finally got some dyno figures. fisher motor works got their hands on some meant for the BMW M57.

no, they arent using total seal / gapless rings. but it is still unclear if the gains seen are due to the dimpling or the piston coating. regardless, results are results.

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here, they say they are testing in a VW TDI soon (TM). they said about 14-16 weeks ago they would test it in "a month"
they posted this more recently mentioning the VW TDI aswell

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they said in some other comments, if they see good results on the VW TDI theyre going to put them into the CJAA. the VW TDI theyre testing first is a mk7 golf

 

[adjat84th]

I saw that dyno chart as well, and even commented on it.
Where do you see mention of type of rings used?

 

[lemoncurd]

Where do you see mention of type of rings used?

look for the comment "Have you guys or SOA talked to totalseal about piston rings for M57?"

they replied to that saying: yes and the second engine we are assembling has total seal rings. That should give us some idea of what difference if any a gapless second ring makes

so the first engine they tested with it didnt use gapless rings

 

[adjat84th]

Would be nice if they mention that in their original post/findings.
Even so, the real comparison will be a coated stock piston vs the SOA. The piston coatings have been out for a long time and are a fraction of the cost of the SOA dimpled pistons.

 

[lemoncurd]

Would be nice if they mention that in their original post/findings.
Even so, the real comparison will be a coated stock piston vs the SOA. The piston coatings have been out for a long time and are a fraction of the cost of the SOA dimpled pistons.

i do wonder what type of math is involved in dimpling the pistons..... my work has a formula-SAE racing team with a fab shop, and i have an "in" there. they would love to do something like this

if i could dimple the pistons myself, then go get them coated it would probably be a fraction of the price of SOA.

 

[lemoncurd]

this is interesting:

https://www.speedofair.com/_files/ugd/5131ea_750b3e9f5541415bbab2303fc047cc5b.pdf

found from here:

See Results | Speed of Air

www.speedofair.com

 

[adjat84th]

The second FB link that @lemoncurd shared a few posts up does show the EA288 (MK7 engine) pistons, and the dimples look totally uniform/evenly placed rather than random. Will be interesting to see their results, even if it's still not apples to apples.

 

[lemoncurd]

page 7, Percent Fuel Savings SOA vs Stock -- less than 8%

saw that too, though it does appear the piston is better than stock....... but still unclear if those benefits are from coating it or from dimples.

 

[oilhammer]

To a manufacturer, 8% would be huge. They install crap like start/stop and use engine-punishing water-thin oils and crappy tires for less gains.

That's why it seems sketchy if it is that good why no manufacturer is jumping on it. The scale of production would drop the cost down to probably only a few dollars over standard pistons. Ford has penny-pinched over the coatings on radio buttons for less.

 

[turbobrick240]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the big diesel engine manufacturers like Volvo, Cummins, CAT, Deere and others have bought the dimpled pistons and run their own tests. And likely determined that there is no magic fairy dust.

 

[lemoncurd]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the big diesel engine manufacturers like Volvo, Cummins, CAT, Deere and others have bought the dimpled pistons and run their own tests. And likely determined that there is no magic fairy dust.

or, having seen how companies like Bosch operate, i wouldnt be surprised if they did see an improvement but now are trying to "clean room" their own dimpled piston designs as to not pay licensing / royalities to SOA.

even companies like Bosch are this petty.

 

[turbobrick240]

or, having seen how companies like Bosch operate, i wouldnt be surprised if they did see an improvement but now are trying to "clean room" their own dimpled piston designs as to not pay licensing / royalities to SOA.

even companies like Bosch are this petty.

It would more likely be Mahle or Kolbenschmidt than Bosch. Bosch doesn't make engine pistons, afaik.

 

[oilhammer]

...because the gov't told them to. I agree, it may seem silly to pursue ways to make a 13 MPG pig get 14 MPGs while 30 MPG cars sit and gather dust and 50 MPG cars are deemed illegal, but that's exactly what they do. They are not putting these 10sp slushboxes in giant trucks and SUVs for fun. Consumers can be very strange. And dumb.

 

[lemoncurd]

It would more likely be Mahle or Kolbenschmidt than Bosch. Bosch doesn't make engine pistons, afaik.

im aware, just pointing out how a conglomerate like bosch can be petty. so no doubt the others are like this too

...because the gov't told them to. I agree, it may seem silly to pursue ways to make a 13 MPG pig get 14 MPGs while 30 MPG cars sit and gather dust and 50 MPG cars are deemed illegal, but that's exactly what they do. They are not putting these 10sp slushboxes in giant trucks and SUVs for fun. Consumers can be very strange. And dumb.

but big car good! cmon, consume man, buy buy buy! you NEED that new, shiny, neat, cool, fancy facelifted car! /s

 

[Zak99b5]

...because the gov't told them to. I agree, it may seem silly to pursue ways to make a 13 MPG pig get 14 MPGs while 30 MPG cars sit and gather dust and 50 MPG cars are deemed illegal, but that's exactly what they do. They are not putting these 10sp slushboxes in giant trucks and SUVs for fun. Consumers can be very strange. And dumb.

Then they run those 10 speeds at over 200* and they fail. Hard parts. CDF drum walks apart. Oh and when you hit the gas to pass someone on the highway, they also neutral out then drop into 1st gear. Lotsa fun.

 

[Zak99b5]

im aware, just pointing out how a conglomerate like bosch can be petty. so no doubt the others are like this too

Not sure there is a patent on dimpling anything. Maybe the specific pattern Shysters of Air use is patented, but not the general concept.

 

[turbobrick240]

Let's not forget that there's a whole world of diesel engines outside of passenger vehicles. Even if there was some big strange conspiracy to keep these miracle pistons out of passenger cars, industry as a whole would jump all over an 8%, 20%, 50% whatever increase in fuel efficiency.

 

[lemoncurd]

they actually did it.

 

[adjat84th]

I don't think there was any doubt that it would run. Will be interesting to see the results.

 

[lemoncurd]

I don't think there was any doubt that it would run. Will be interesting to see the results.

was more hesitant about them actually putting the pistons in. because it had been some months since they said "next month"

 

[Zak99b5]

Doesn't sound any quieter than what's normal. The skinny old white guy with the beard was going on and on about how quiet those pistons made a diesel in an earlier video.

 

[adjat84th]

Doesn't sound any quieter than what's normal. The skinny old white guy with the beard was going on and on about how quiet those pistons made a diesel in an earlier video.

The EA288 has fairly low compression already, that and the two pilot injections makes a very quiet operation. I wonder how much compression drop there is with the dimpling.

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

I think the car is deleted, not sure if straight pipe or to muffler. But at idle it sounds to me like a non deleted engine.

 

[turbobrick240]

I'd rather see some video of the pistons actually going into the engine than just the car starting.

 

[Lightflyer1]

I will consider these kinds of things when they arrive in production vehicles. I see ads all the time on new miracle engines and such. For the most part you never see them make it to a production vehicle. Fun to read about but have little expectation they will ever make it into a vehicle that is mass produced and out for sale.

 

[Boosty]

I watched the vids linked in this thread and was reminded of the aftermarket heads sold for 2 stroke dirt bikes that had been dimpled, increasing power and etc as alleged in these vids, however this 2 stroke shenanigans I recall was decades ago. If it works I'm all for it, a lifetime lasting 20 percent power or efficiency boost is worthwhile in my book.

 

[dieseldonato]

I watched the vids linked in this thread and was reminded of the aftermarket heads sold for 2 stroke dirt bikes that had been dimpled, increasing power and etc as alleged in these vids, however this 2 stroke shenanigans I recall was decades ago. If it works I'm all for it, a lifetime lasting 20 percent power or efficiency boost is worthwhile in my book.

None of this is "new" it's been around the block time and time again, and never gains any real traction.

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, solenoid operated port EFI was brought about in the mid-'50s from Bendix, but it wasn't until the late '60s when Bosch got a hold of it and actually made it work reliably.

I think VAG's work on the G-charger was a decades old idea before they first got it working in production in the late '80s.