Convert To TT/R32 Front Suspension For Handeling

[duwem]

Its commonly known that when lowing the MK4 Golf/Jetta that once the lower control arms go past horizontal, the front end grip and overall handleling of the car decreases. This is because the front wheels go from negative camber to positive through the suspension travel. Here is a graph showing this travel, including lowering amount (from Vortex, I did not create).



Going back to the horizontal control arms, when lowing with the stock MK4 Golf/Jetta spindles, the control arms go over hoizontal and start to get negative angle(rise when going from the middle of the car to the spindle.
Lower you go, the more this comes into play. The stock static camber can still be adjusted to spec, but the camber curve once you load the suspension gets closer and closer to postive.

Appears the lower attachment point on the TT/R32 spindle is much lower than the Golf/Jetta, which would help level back out the control arms.



So, who has done the switch on a lowered MK4 Golf/Jetta? Before and after feel? My car handeled awesome last year, fat rear sway bar, sticky summer tires. Now that its lowered, it understeers more (tends to plow more). Seems this would be a bolt on option to get that front grip back.

Looks like one would need to swap wheel bearings, and get the right control arms with the nubs for the stock sway bar (or run no front which some recommend)? And there were some revisions to the bushing style wit the handeling recall on the TT.

More details here on the parts:

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/audi-tt-vw-golf-r32-spindle-and-lower-control-arm-conversion-mk4/

And no, this is not a discussion about raising the car back up to stock ride height. I already know that will help, and this is not a discussion about compromises with appearance, thats all already understood. Its how to make a slightly lowered MK4 Handle well again.

I like winding country roads, on ramps, and autocrossing, and also a nice appearing car.



Current ride height:

 

[duwem]

Oh, and what needs to happen for brake? Can I bolt my TDI dust shields, caliper brackets, calipers and rotors to the TT/R32 parts, or do I need to go to 1.8/Vr6 or the TT/R32 brakes. Reading this it looks like I could go to 1.8/VR6 caliper brackets and run my stock calipers (but would need larger rotors?)

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/audi-tt-brake-carrier-conversion-mk4/

Wouldnt mind getting larger brakes up front, but trying to avoid too large of brakes that I need yet another set of wheels for winter/all season tires. And avoid tons of extra added costs to do the spindle/control arm swap.

 

[duwem]

Bump.

 

[cevans]

Oh, and what needs to happen for brake? Can I bolt my TDI dust shields, caliper brackets, calipers and rotors to the TT/R32 parts, or do I need to go to 1.8/Vr6 or the TT/R32 brakes. Reading this it looks like I could go to 1.8/VR6 caliper brackets and run my stock calipers (but would need larger rotors?)

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/audi-tt-brake-carrier-conversion-mk4/

Wouldnt mind getting larger brakes up front, but trying to avoid too large of brakes that I need yet another set of wheels for winter/all season tires. And avoid tons of extra added costs to do the spindle/control arm swap.

Lots of people have done the Audi TT conversion on VWVortex, so you'll get better data there. Not much in the way of lowered-handling discussion on TDIClub, thus the crickets...and try not to "bump" threads like you do on the 'tex. Bumping really ruins the usefulness of the forum.

Re Brake Upgrade: yes, you need to change brakes. You need to get calipers and carriers from a 1.8T MkIV. Those will allow you to run 15" wheels. If you swap to stock brakes an Audi TT, those are 312mm rotors and need 16" wheels to clear. Whatever you choose the caliper & carrier upgrade you will need different brake pads and rotors. Or you can go baller-status with Porsche Cayenne calipers...

Re Spindles - you can use the Audi TT spindles or ones from H2Sport that will allow an even lower ride height while keeping the control arm in optimal alignment. If you keep your OE control arms then the spindles are more or less bolt-on, but Audi TT control arms have an offset to them which improves their angle even more...unfortunately not so much plug and play.

In my opinion, and we've done a lot of racing here at IDParts, what you have now is already close to the limit of the MkIV handling before things get REALLY uncomfortable. At this point you can spend a TON of money and not get much more out of your car. For our track Golf we had 800 lb springs in the back to keep the thing level...that was NOT good on the road.

 

[duwem]

The FAQ says the ball joint on the stamped steel arms and the TT arms are different. And I'm not into welding a ball joint like it shows. Is there a ball joint that fits the stamped steel arms and TT spindles?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[[486]]

I notice the steering arm is higher on the TT knuckle. The rack is probably mounted higher relative to the axle shafts on them. Possibly for rear drive shaft clearance.
It'd be interesting to see the toe change caused by that, might make for undesirable characteristics like bump steer.

 

[duwem]

The FAQ talks about flipping the tie rod upside down. I would think the part that goes in the spindle is tapered like the ball joint? Is the taper the other way on the TT spindle that upside down from our cars works? I think I also read something about swapping drivers and passanger side tie rod ends when flipping. And are the tapers the same from our tie rods to the TT ones? Maybe they are the same pn?

I'm really leery of the FAQ since it DOESNT ever SAY ANYTHING about handleing...just says done for adjustable camber 100 times...

Spent 1.5 hours on vortex trying to find a good thread on a full TT/R front conversion. Since most are looking to slam their cars in the weeds over there, most of the threads are just piecing and parting stuff together to fix rubbing problems, if you know of a good thread with a full swap please post a link

 

[[486]]

The FAQ talks about flipping the tie rod upside down.

That'd put the tie rod in about the same spot relative to the wheel bearing. Guess they must do it that way for some other reason like wheel clearance or something.

'Course you aren't going to get anything about handling along with the adjustable camber stuff, all show no go with (a certain group).

Can't help you much with anything more, other than I'm interested in getting my s#!tbox to go around corners better. Maintaining speed is good for the fuel economy, after all.

 

[cevans]

The FAQ says the ball joint on the stamped steel arms and the TT arms are different. And I'm not into welding a ball joint like it shows. Is there a ball joint that fits the stamped steel arms and TT spindles?

Thanks for the reply.

You can use Jetta ball joints on TT spindles as the taper in the spindle is identical. If you swap control arms then you need to change to the matching ball joint, however.

 

[duwem]

Do the TT lcas have different geometry as well or just stiffer and diff ball joint mounting holes/slots.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

H2Sport spindles are vapor. I tried to buy them literally for years before giving up.

Another way to increase negative camber is camber plates. I've run Ground-Control plates on my wagon and they work well: at slightly lower than stock ride height I was able to get over 2 degrees negative camber. Makes a huge difference. And surprisingly there doesn't seem to be any real ride penalty, although admittedly I was running them with coilovers and 550 lb front springs so the additional harshness may have been hard to notice.

If you go the TT route you can use your existing struts, but TT control arms don't have anywhere to attach the sway bar. So if you use the TT control arms as well you'll need to get TT struts with the sway bar attachment.

 

[david_594]

Re Brake Upgrade: yes, you need to change brakes. You need to get calipers and carriers from a 1.8T MkIV. Those will allow you to run 15" wheels. If you swap to stock brakes an Audi TT, those are 312mm rotors and need 16" wheels to clear. Whatever you choose the caliper & carrier upgrade you will need different brake pads and rotors.

If you go to the TT control arms and spindles, you are limited to 16" wheels as the studs for the TT ball joints will actually hit the inside rim during compression of the suspension. Even at that, I had a trim a small amount off the studs to make them work.

The FAQ talks about flipping the tie rod upside down. I would think the part that goes in the spindle is tapered like the ball joint? Is the taper the other way on the TT spindle that upside down from our cars works? I think I also read something about swapping drivers and passanger side tie rod ends when flipping. And are the tapers the same from our tie rods to the TT ones? Maybe they are the same pn?

The attachment for the tie rods are tapered. And flipping them makes it work without issue. The outer end attachment point is slightly offset from the shaft. So by just flipping it positions the actual shaft of the tie rod a little more rearward and increases the likelyhood of it rubbing on the inside of the wheel. I never ran overly wide rims and never had an issue with this. Switching the tie rod ends left <-> right puts the tie rod shaft back in the original location and reduces the risk of rubbing.

If you go the TT route you can use your existing struts, but TT control arms don't have anywhere to attach the sway bar. So if you use the TT control arms as well you'll need to get TT struts with the sway bar attachment.

The TT control arms I have had the mounts cast in them in the same location as the jetta/golf but were not drilled. So if you file the end flat, drill and tap them you can use the original sway bar and end links. This is what I did with my setup.

 

[duwem]

Interesting about the spindle not clearing smaller rims. Guess that would eliminate the use of my winter tires on stock 15" alloys.
Did the TT have a 16" spare or do the stel rims have more clearance?


Looks like there were 2 revisions of the control arms. Ones with smaller bushings and ones with the bigger bushings after the recall which aren't as crisp of handeling since the recall was to introduce more oversteer since there were some cases of cars swapping ends.

 

[duwem]

Pulled the trigger on TT parts. Local salvage yard got one in.

Getting:

Lower control arms
Ball Joints
Hubs (TT is a 5 speed front wheel drive so will fit my axles fine)
Spindles
Brake calipers, rotors pads.

Will need a different set of winter wheels, but the brake and handling upgrade should make it worth it.

 

[dirtride]

Pulled the trigger on TT parts. Local salvage yard got one in.

Getting:

Lower control arms
Ball Joints
Hubs (TT is a 5 speed front wheel drive so will fit my axles fine)
Spindles
Brake calipers, rotors pads.

Will need a different set of winter wheels, but the brake and handling upgrade should make it worth it.

I am looking for this same package.

 

[duwem]

Found mine through http://www.car-part.com/
Searched for control arms or spindles for 01 audi and one of the local yards was listed.

Or keep an eye for TT partout threads on vw vortex

 

[duwem]

Picked these up today (times 2), 365 bucks. May even be able to use the rotors if people still turn them down. Took a wire wheel to one spot and they cleaned up good other than a few noramal groves.

Came from a 1.8T Front wheel drive 5 speed TT so the hubs should fit my axles too.

 

[david_594]

Picked these up today (times 2), 365 bucks. May even be able to use the rotors if people still turn them down. Took a wire wheel to one spot and they cleaned up good other than a few noramal groves.

Came from a 1.8T Front wheel drive 5 speed TT so the hubs should fit my axles too.

Good deal! You can see the mounting tab on the forward edge of the control arm. Before you mount anything on the car decide if you are going to use that to retain the stock anti-sway bar. It should be far easier to drill and tap the mount when it is not on the vehicle.

 

[duwem]

Already have them ground flat. Going to drill and tap then also sandblast and paint the parts and put new bushings and ball joints.

 

[Dimitri16V]

The FAQ talks about flipping the tie rod upside down. I would think the part that goes in the spindle is tapered like the ball joint? Is the taper the other way on the TT spindle that upside down from our cars works? I think I also read something about swapping drivers and passanger side tie rod ends when flipping. And are the tapers the same from our tie rods to the TT ones? Maybe they are the same pn?

I'm really leery of the FAQ since it DOESNT ever SAY ANYTHING about handleing...just says done for adjustable camber 100 times...

Spent 1.5 hours on vortex trying to find a good thread on a full TT/R front conversion. Since most are looking to slam their cars in the weeds over there, most of the threads are just piecing and parting stuff together to fix rubbing problems, if you know of a good thread with a full swap please post a link

good call
that is what we used to do on the MKIs back in the days when lowered excessively

 

[dirtride]

Picked these up today (times 2), 365 bucks. May even be able to use the rotors if people still turn them down. Took a wire wheel to one spot and they cleaned up good other than a few noramal groves.

Came from a 1.8T Front wheel drive 5 speed TT so the hubs should fit my axles too.



http://s22.photobucket.com/user/duwem/media/VW%20Golf/C5BF0235-9583-4EA7-939B-9B4FDE0478F8_zpsvigcxmo1.jpg.html

Great score! I plan on the same here pretty soon. Keep us updated on how it all comes together.

 

[duwem]

Got the nubs drilled and tapped. Going to try to find a bottoming tap so I don't need to drill any deeper. Need about 3/16" more thread depth yet but the hole is deep enough.



Once I get done with that I will sandblast the arms.

 

[[486]]

Got any cheap carbon steel taps, or broken ones? Easy to make a bottom tap with the bench grinder.

If your set is a cheapie, good time to buy a quality HSS tap and make your current cheap tap into a bottoming one.

 

[duwem]

I have good taps and no broken ones will look for a bottoming tap.

Got the large bushings pushed out and the one arm blasted.

 

[dirtride]

So I have spindles , calipers & rotor assy from a 2001 Audi TT, pretty sure 1.8 - 2WD. It is pretty much bolt on to my 03 Golf, correct? I just need the LCA's with sway bar nub/boss and run min 16" wheels for clearance?

 

[duwem]

Correct. Ball joints too if you dont have those.

Would want to to check the wheels for sure, some people ran into problems with the studs on the ball joint rubbing on the rim during suspension travel. They cut down the studs and it cleared then, but had ground a groove in the wheels.

 

[LNXGUY]

Pulled the trigger on TT parts. Local salvage yard got one in.

Getting:

Lower control arms
Ball Joints
Hubs (TT is a 5 speed front wheel drive so will fit my axles fine)
Spindles
Brake calipers, rotors pads.

Will need a different set of winter wheels, but the brake and handling upgrade should make it worth it.

Don't forget the rear 10.1in vented brake setup. So much better then the solid rotors on the stock MKIV cars.

 

[duwem]

was reading up on that, found all the parts (new pads and rotors too) for about 150, but like someone pointed out, back only does 20% of the braking and those rotors are only 9% larger than stocks, so money spent elsewhere would be more beneficial.

Maybe once I get the front all done would be a nice compliment some day.

 

[LNXGUY]

was reading up on that, found all the parts (new pads and rotors too) for about 150, but like someone pointed out, back only does 20% of the braking and those rotors are only 9% larger than stocks, so money spent elsewhere would be more beneficial.

Maybe once I get the front all done would be a nice compliment some day.

The rears do a lot more then 20% of the braking... Ever wonder why you're replacing rears 3X as much as the fronts?

 

[[486]]

The rears do a lot more then 20% of the braking... Ever wonder why you're replacing rears 3X as much as the fronts?

Because they're rear discs that rust solid if not used hard, and have relatively small pads?
On the other hand, shoes last almost the life of the car if you rotate them once. Drums don't rust half as quick, either. As you can tell, I'm a follower of the church of the Bendix Single Anchor Duo-Servo Self-Adjusting Drum Brake. May it please its followers with its easily serviced nature.

Anyways, back on topic I feel like the rear really wants to come out before the front when in a turn. Do the higher zoot cars like the TTs come with IRS? Some camber gain on compression would be nice...