Conventional Oil in an ALH

outoforder

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Location
Dover, OH
TDI
2003 Jetta
Due to issues with my high mileage ALH, I have been changing the oil every 3000 miles. I know the manual specs a synthetic 5w40, but is there any harm in running a 15w40 conventional oil for such a short OCI?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Why on Earth would you do this? Heck, I run my "high mileage" (500k+) ALH to 20k mile intervals.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
I know someone who runs the cheapest 10w30 motor oil for gasoline engines in a 1999 Golf TDI.

If another oil was cheaper, he'd use that. He has been doing this for years. If the engine ever wears out, I'll let y'all know...
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
If you get a cold snap that 15w40 isn't going to help the morning startup.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
If you get a cold snap that 15w40 isn't going to help the morning startup.

We had a company that was too cheap to use the correct oil in their early Sprinters, and one 4 F morning they blew the oil filter cap (a plastic cartridge similar to an ALH) clean off the top of the engine when they started it! :eek:
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
We had a company that was too cheap to use the correct oil in their early Sprinters, and one 4 F morning they blew the oil filter cap (a plastic cartridge similar to an ALH) clean off the top of the engine when they started it! :eek:
Yikes. I guess they discovered the meaning of false economy. I'm a pretty frugal guy myself, but wouldn't run anything but synthetic oil in my TDI. I actually just bought my first quart ever of Amsoil 5w40 today. Mostly out of curiosity.
 

Rico567

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
I routinely check the oil level the first drive after being changed. If I've only driven 5-10 miles, it's still a bit translucent. From then on until the next OC, it's completely black. This is our first diesel, but I had read enough in this forum and elsewhere to know that this is just characteristic of the soot being generated as a byproduct of diesel combustion being suspended in the oil (exactly where it belongs). So— no worries.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It would seem the OP is not well versed in diesels, or maybe genuinely has some problem (or at least something he thinks is a problem) but has not offered any more information on the subject.
 

bluesmoker

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Maple Ridge, B.C.
TDI
2004 pd 5 speed tip
well I think it is time for me to come out of the (DINO) closet, I have been using this oil in my PD

http://www.bosslubricants.com/viewproductdetails/heavy-duty-extreme-diesel-engine-oils-api-cj-4

when all of the reports of cam failures came out I had my cam inspected, some streaking was seen on the #1 lobe @ (80, 000km), I was using stealer 505.01 5w30 oil

I thought the cam was going to die anyways so I switched to a cheaper oil and waited for the cam's death, I am now at 200,000km with the same cam

how is this possible, some of you may say?

if you look at the antiwear addtive levels (P and Zn) of a API CJ oil, they are almost always above the levels of a 505.01 engine oil, and I think the higher viscosity protects the cam. I refer to all of you guys running mobil 5/40.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=151993

I don't want to start an oil war, just one man's observation. My car burns no oil between changes, the cam wear has stopped and the top end is "spotless" according to my mechaninc. I had the cam cover off last month to check the engine, the transmission failed and I wanted his opinion whether to invest $3000 in a new transmission or junk the car

regarding the lower pour point of the 15w40, it is 2C outside today, the pour point of the oil I am using is -33C, lots of leeway there

I change the oil every 6 months with an extractor, if the car dies it owes me nothing
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I used to run 15w40 in my Kubota and 7.3. They both started sluggishly and sounded terrible at startup when temps were significantly below freezing. Now I run a 50/50 blend of 5w40/15w40 in both year round. I'd run straight 5w40 if I were made of money, but the 7.3 alone takes 4 gallons.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
We run 5w40 Rotella in our Kub RTV, mid-sized utility tractor, JD Garden tractor, JD compact tractor, and when I had my 7.3L F350 in that too. The cold weather performance gain (ease of starting, much less "grumpiness" during warmup, etc.) made it worth the extra cost to me. Plus, because it used a little oil, I felt that changing the oil became unnecessary as it was always getting small sips of new stuff anyway. So every 10k miles I spun a new Motorcraft filter (prefilled with new oil) on it.

The big IH dump truck will probably get it too, and it probably will never be changed again as long as we have the truck.
 

donDavide

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Location
Severna Park, Maryland USA
TDI
2003 Jetta ;2006 Golf; 2015 Jetta S
To be honest, before my forum days, I would run 15w40 in my AHU, my manual said nothing about it or 505.00. I would use blend it with a 10w30 diesel rated synthetic, in the winter straight 10w30 diesel synthetic blends. Changed at 5k intervals did it from 40k mi to 100k, Then I found Delvac1 and used that from 100k to 225k, when the mechanic i used drove my car 20 miles w/o coolant and fried the motor.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
I get Delvac 5w-40 on the rebate deal a couple times a year for about $3.50/qt. it goes in almost everything except the wifes Toyota Avalon and the old 5.7 Suburban. Shibura tractor, Honda ST1300, Polaris ATV, anything VW diesel or otherwise (although that's all there is currently).
I think the biggest argument for using only synthetic in the TdIs is the turbo. It gets too hot and spins at much higher speeds than many conventional and/or larger units. It's not your typical heavy equipment type compressor. The ALH mechanical parts would probably endure a long time on a quality "conventional" oil, but why?
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
That delvac rebate deal is pretty awesome. I should take advantage of it. For some reason I'm just terrible with rebates. But that one is really too good to pass up.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
To be honest, before my forum days, I would run 15w40 in my AHU, my manual said nothing about it or 505.00. I would use blend it with a 10w30 diesel rated synthetic, in the winter straight 10w30 diesel synthetic blends. Changed at 5k intervals did it from 40k mi to 100k, Then I found Delvac1 and used that from 100k to 225k, when the mechanic i used drove my car 20 miles w/o coolant and fried the motor.
Volkswagen released several TSBs early on clarifying the use of synthetic oils, particularly in diesel engines. However, even the old A2 turbodiesels had a "500.00" oil sticker right on the valve cover. I do not remember what my 1998 Jetta TDI's manual said, but by then the dealer has been using Castrol Syntec 5w40 for a while, so it really wasn't anything new.
 

naturist

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2001
Location
Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2012 BMW X5 35d
There are a couple considerations here. The first is the "black oil" bit. Virtually all diesels turn oil black as coal within 30 seconds of restart after fresh oil is installed. If your oil is black, it means absolutely nothing.

I have a Jetta TDI of 2001 vintage, a BMW X5 diesel of 2012 vintage, and until it dropped a valve, I had a Jeep Libby diesel of 2005 vintage. Every last one of them blackened the oil immediately after startup with a fresh batch of oil installed.

Second, when engines are designed, they are designed with the oil weight to be used in mind. Use oils of the wrong weight, and you risk inadequate lubrication in critical places. This goes both ways, with oil too thin and oil too thick.

Somewhere a while back I came upon a chart of how quickly oil flow reaches distant parts of an engine upon cold startup. It is estimated that 80% of the wear occurs during such a cold startup, and the engine tested got the oil where it needed to go in around 15 seconds with the right weight oil, which, as I recall was a 5w-40 oil. A 15w-40 oil on the other hand took 45 seconds to reach the distant parts of the engine. If you think 30 seconds makes no difference, drain the oil in your ride and start 'er up and see how long it takes before bearing damage occurs.

Diesel rated oils are designed to keep the soot formed in suspension. The particles are too small to harm things, but they can form deposits that cause problems later if not keep in suspension. If the OP is using non-diesel rated oils, 3,000 miles might not be long enough to keep from clogging things up simply because diesels make soot. That's just how it is.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
...
Second, when engines are designed, they are designed with the oil weight to be used in mind.....
Yeah, maybe in some cases. But in other cases the engine's design predates the current oil in common use, or they decided to use a thinner oil in an older engine to squeak out a fraction more MPGs to satisfy a regulation.

The two glaring examples of this is the Ford Vulcan V6 and the Chrysler 3.3/3.8L V6.

The Ford V6 debuted in the 1986 Taurus, and while it was all-new, it was hardly a cutting edge design even for the time. It was specified to use 5w30 motor oil, and that was fairly new at the time. Ford had a TSB stating this weight oil was starting factory fill on many smaller engines starting in 1984, but even by 1986 was still only recommended for some of their engines. The rest were still 10w30, and even the Vulcan engine in the Taurus and Aerostar gave 10w30 the OK in higher temp regions. These early engines really did not have much oil consumption problems (the cars they were bolted into were rolling crap cans, but that is another story...).

Fast forward to around 2001, and for reasons I cannot grasp the Taurus (and its senior citizen stablemate Sable) as well as the Ranger, still got that same engine as standard or optional, only now Ford was specifying 5w20. Guess what? These engines had (and have, many are still on the road) major oil consumption problems. They also cranked up the operating temps with hotter thermostats, as well as more aggressive EGR use since that is really the only [easy, cheap] way to control NOx on an ancient cam-in-block pushrod engine. So a 1990 Taurus never had to worry about the engine. Literally everything else around the car would/could fall to pieces, including the problematic AXOD transmission, but the Vulcan engine would soldier on. Really a tough engine, even if no more powerful than many 4cyl modern multivalve engines. But the later ones? Those engines blow up often. Lock ups from running out of oil, dropped valve seats. Leaking head gaskets. Failed catalysts from having to deal with bad oil consumption in the engine.

The Chrysler V6 has a similar issue, although they had some other issues early on they were often eclipsed by all the other bank account rupturing failures the cars equipped with these engines had (transmissions, evaporator cores, etc.). But again, they were still using these engines up until just recently when the Pentastar V6 replaced ALL the V6 engines in ALL Chryco products. And like Ford, Chrysler changed to a 5w20 oil, and like Ford, oil consumption on these otherwise simple, low tech, and sturdy engines skyrocketed and became a real problem. And again, this was an engine that came out in 1990 and was specified to use 10w30 at temps above 0F. It was never designed to use 5w20 at all, let alone "at all temps". So, it suffered. So while the MPGs may be 5% higher, the oil use (assuming anyone bothers to check/add it) will easily be more than the "savings" in fuel use. And if you don't bother, you get to see what a replacement engine costs, which is of course much more than a 5% fuel economy boost.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Due to issues with my high mileage ALH, I have been changing the oil every 3000 miles. I know the manual specs a synthetic 5w40, but is there any harm in running a 15w40 conventional oil for such a short OCI?
Old school is still alive and well. *SIGHE*

Don't worry about the oil being totally black following an oil change. The oil will be totally black again within minutes following an oil change, often before the engine is started again. It's 100% normal and nothing to worry about. If anything the oil SHOULD appear black because that means the oil is doing it's job and controlling soot by keeping it safely suspended in the oil where it does no harm. The time to worry is if and when the oil appears anything OTHER than totally black.

The TDI's 10k mile OCI has been verified through laboratory oil analysis to be perfectly fine and well on the conservative side with the correct 5W-40 synthetic oil. The OCI can be safely stretched to 20k miles as oilhammer pointed out and this has been verified through laboratory oil analysis. And even at 20k miles the engine will still be better protected than it would be during the first mile running on the wrong oil. And contrary to popular belief, changing the oil more frequently than recommended does not protect the engine any better.

Early ALH TDIs used a 15W-40 conventional oil like what you're using. VW very soon updated the oil spec to require a 5W-40 synthetic oil after finding oil coking problems causing piston rings to stick in their grooves. One of the design changes made in the ALH TDI engine and in other modern engines was the rings were moved closer to the top of the piston crown. This was done to minimize the "crevice" volume that exists between the piston crown, cylinder wall, and the top piston ring. This small crevice "hides" a small amount of unburned air/fuel mixture which contributes to emissions. The only thing that can be done to reduce these emissions is to make the crevice as small as possible. In moving the rings closer to the top of the piston crown, the oil is exposed to more heat from combustion and this where conventional oils break down. This is what drives the synthetic oil requirement in ALH TDIs.

You're really not doing your ALH TDI engine any favors by using the wrong oil and thinking you can get away with it by changing the oil more frequently than recommended. Get that 15W-40 conventional oil outa there and get a 5W-40 synthetic oil in there ASAP and stick to a 10k mile OCI.

Good luck and Welcome to TDIclub. :cool:
 
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Ranch

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Location
midwest
TDI
ALH
I've changed thousands of gallons of 'black' oil from diesels. It's true if all you do is drop the oil in the pan, and change filters... you'll have 'black' oil again.
... Try this: Dip a corner of white paper towel into this fresh 'changed' oil.. may look black on the dipstick.. but hold it up in the light! ta-da!! amber!
It doesn't take many molecules of carbon to make a drop appear opaque. Spread it out on paper, and the true nature reveals itself.
Most my large diesels have fairly large oil coolers, which hardly ever get drained in the process. The few times I would, the results were much cleaner oil immediately after the change. Most engines have provisions to drain the cooler, but most are in impossible places to get to.
Just sayin, the little amount that stays in the cooler/lines is probably enough to 'color' it. It's just not as bad as it appears on the end of the dipstick.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
My SDL is like that... at least a quart says in the remote cooler. On the ALH you can siphon most of the oil out of the cooler so things are a bit clearer after a change.

When Matt98AHU did the timing belt / oil pump chain on our 99.5 the oil refill still got a tinge of black - even though the oil cooler was empty, and the oil pan had been wiped clean!

-J
 

Ranch

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Location
midwest
TDI
ALH
My SDL is like that... at least a quart says in the remote cooler. On the ALH you can siphon most of the oil out of the cooler so things are a bit clearer after a change.

When Matt98AHU did the timing belt / oil pump chain on our 99.5 the oil refill still got a tinge of black - even though the oil cooler was empty, and the oil pan had been wiped clean!

-J
Exactly. The tiny amount of oil even left in the galleries/oil pump/intake pipe/turbo/turbo lines is plenty to 'color' the oil!
 

donDavide

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Location
Severna Park, Maryland USA
TDI
2003 Jetta ;2006 Golf; 2015 Jetta S
Volkswagen released several TSBs early on clarifying the use of synthetic oils, particularly in diesel engines. However, even the old A2 turbodiesels had a "500.00" oil sticker right on the valve cover. I do not remember what my 1998 Jetta TDI's manual said, but by then the dealer has been using Castrol Syntec 5w40 for a while, so it really wasn't anything new.
Yes, I think the cover had 505.00,(stamped in plastic I think, nothing other than that.) I never new what it was until I joined the Forum. But no mention in manual and it also said 5k OCI.
 
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