Continuous DEF Faults - Dealer can't fix

[1badsnake]

It was a repaired one. It was bought back, sat for I think 2 1/2 years and I bought it from a dealer in 2020

 

[TurboABA]

I also don't know what @SundanceGS is referring to, as there's no such section in your applicable appendix.

This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree.

I can only guess that he's talking about the 3L documentation instead, but once again, who knows when users fall off the planet during discussions.

 

[TurboABA]

It was a repaired one. It was bought back, sat for I think 2 1/2 years and I bought it from a dealer in 2020

Make up your mind... did it have AEM or NOT? You keep contradicting yourself.
If yes, date & milage of modification?

 

[oilhammer]

Give it rest, man. Car's gone. Move along....

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

I say the car is getting the "Manual" treatment for the NMS Passat, IE crunch.

 

[TurboABA]

Give it rest, man. Car's gone. Move along....

No problem boss, I thought the guy wanted help winning his lawsuit....

 

[1badsnake]

Make up your mind... did it have AEM or NOT? You keep contradicting yourself.
If yes, date & milage of modification?

No idea what AES is and I haven't contradicted anything.

 

[SundanceGS]

Hello all,

Just a quick update on my emissions related issues. My Q7 was in the dealer shop for 10 days and received a new Adblue injector. The dealer asked for permission to drive the car an extended amount to see if the CEL would come on again. They drove it around 300 miles or so and presumably the light did not appear. They called me to pick it up and so far I've driven it around 100 additional miles... still no light. So, it appears that the car has now traveled around 400 miles or so without the CEL illuminating. I'm surprised at that, since the CEL usually turns on within around 50 miles of me picking the car up. We will see if this luck continues. A friend of mine joked "Maybe they took the CEL bulb out". I laughed for a few seconds and then I thought "Hey, wait a minute...". Ha.

At any rate, if it really, truly is fixed, I suppose that ruins my plan to pursue the buyback. However, I'm not convinced that this apparent repair is "real". I suppose it's easy to get jaded after believing that the 12 previous repair attempts were successful and then finding out within a day or two that they were not.

1badsnake, I apologize if I gave you an incorrect source regarding the buyback criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. This section/paragraph is contained within the 3.0 Liter documents, not the 2.0 Liter ones (or, if it is, it's likely a different section). Specifically, the section I referred to reads the following:

9.2 Warranty Remedies. In addition to any protections provided by law (including those referenced in Paragraph 9.3 below), Defendants must reoffer and provide a Buyback or Lease Termination to any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of a Modified Vehicle (or in the case of an Approved Emissions Modification that qualifies as an Emissions Compliant Recall, must offer a Buyback or Lease Termination in the first instance) in the event that, during the 18 months or 18,000 miles following the completion of the Approved Emissions Modification (the “Reoffer Period”), Defendants fail to repair or remedy a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction covered by the Warranty and associated with the Approved Emissions Modification or Emissions Compliant Recall (a “Warrantable Failure”) after the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee physically presents the Modified Vehicle to a dealer for repair of the Warrantable Failure; and (1) the Warrantable Failure is unable to be remedied after making four separate service visits for the same Warrantable Failure during the Reoffer Period; or (2) the Modified Vehicle with the Warrantable Failure is out of service due to the Warrantable Failure for a cumulative total of 30 Days during the Reoffer Period. (For avoidance of doubt, a Modified Vehicle shall not be deemed “out of service” when, after diagnosing the Warrantable Failure, the dealer returns or tenders the Modified Vehicle to the customer while the dealer awaits necessary parts for the Warrantable Failure, and the Modified Vehicle remains Operable.) In such a case, the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of an Eligible Vehicle receiving an Approved Emissions Modification shall receive the payments that he or she would have received under the Buyback or the Lease Termination at the time the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee first requested the Approved Emissions Modification less any payment amounts already received; or, in the case of an Emissions Compliant Recall, the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee shall receive the payments that he or she would have been entitled to receive under Section VII of this Appendix A had a Final Notice of Disapproval been issued by EPA/CARB with respect to the proposed Emissions Compliant Recall, less any payment amounts already received. No Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee shall receive double-recovery of any portion of any payment. Defendants shall, as part of their reporting obligations in Paragraph 11.3 below, notify EPA/CARB and CA AG when any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee participates in the Buyback or the Lease Termination under this Paragraph 9.2.

Again, I apologize for any confusion caused by me referring to the 3.0 Liter agreement instead of the 2.0 Liter that I forgot applied to your situation.

What was the outcome of your mediation last Friday?

 

[TurboABA]

No idea what AES is and I haven't contradicted anything.

Meh... no loss to me

(1) the Warrantable Failure is unable to be remedied after making four separate service visits for the same Warrantable Failure during the Reoffer Period;
or
(2) the Modified Vehicle with the Warrantable Failure is out of service due to the Warrantable Failure for a cumulative total of 30 Days during the Reoffer Period.

 

[Lakelifejimmy]

After dealing with emissions related issues for a few years on my 2014 Passat, I'll have to say these cars aren't worth the headaches unless you live somewhere that you can put them on a bit of a diet.

 

[1badsnake]

Hello all,

Just a quick update on my emissions related issues. My Q7 was in the dealer shop for 10 days and received a new Adblue injector. The dealer asked for permission to drive the car an extended amount to see if the CEL would come on again. They drove it around 300 miles or so and presumably the light did not appear. They called me to pick it up and so far I've driven it around 100 additional miles... still no light. So, it appears that the car has now traveled around 400 miles or so without the CEL illuminating. I'm surprised at that, since the CEL usually turns on within around 50 miles of me picking the car up. We will see if this luck continues. A friend of mine joked "Maybe they took the CEL bulb out". I laughed for a few seconds and then I thought "Hey, wait a minute...". Ha.

At any rate, if it really, truly is fixed, I suppose that ruins my plan to pursue the buyback. However, I'm not convinced that this apparent repair is "real". I suppose it's easy to get jaded after believing that the 12 previous repair attempts were successful and then finding out within a day or two that they were not.

1badsnake, I apologize if I gave you an incorrect source regarding the buyback criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. This section/paragraph is contained within the 3.0 Liter documents, not the 2.0 Liter ones (or, if it is, it's likely a different section). Specifically, the section I referred to reads the following:

9.2 Warranty Remedies. In addition to any protections provided by law (including those referenced in Paragraph 9.3 below), Defendants must reoffer and provide a Buyback or Lease Termination to any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of a Modified Vehicle (or in the case of an Approved Emissions Modification that qualifies as an Emissions Compliant Recall, must offer a Buyback or Lease Termination in the first instance) in the event that, during the 18 months or 18,000 miles following the completion of the Approved Emissions Modification (the “Reoffer Period”), Defendants fail to repair or remedy a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction covered by the Warranty and associated with the Approved Emissions Modification or Emissions Compliant Recall (a “Warrantable Failure”) after the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee physically presents the Modified Vehicle to a dealer for repair of the Warrantable Failure; and (1) the Warrantable Failure is unable to be remedied after making four separate service visits for the same Warrantable Failure during the Reoffer Period; or (2) the Modified Vehicle with the Warrantable Failure is out of service due to the Warrantable Failure for a cumulative total of 30 Days during the Reoffer Period. (For avoidance of doubt, a Modified Vehicle shall not be deemed “out of service” when, after diagnosing the Warrantable Failure, the dealer returns or tenders the Modified Vehicle to the customer while the dealer awaits necessary parts for the Warrantable Failure, and the Modified Vehicle remains Operable.) In such a case, the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of an Eligible Vehicle receiving an Approved Emissions Modification shall receive the payments that he or she would have received under the Buyback or the Lease Termination at the time the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee first requested the Approved Emissions Modification less any payment amounts already received; or, in the case of an Emissions Compliant Recall, the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee shall receive the payments that he or she would have been entitled to receive under Section VII of this Appendix A had a Final Notice of Disapproval been issued by EPA/CARB with respect to the proposed Emissions Compliant Recall, less any payment amounts already received. No Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee shall receive double-recovery of any portion of any payment. Defendants shall, as part of their reporting obligations in Paragraph 11.3 below, notify EPA/CARB and CA AG when any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee participates in the Buyback or the Lease Termination under this Paragraph 9.2.

Again, I apologize for any confusion caused by me referring to the 3.0 Liter agreement instead of the 2.0 Liter that I forgot applied to your situation.

What was the outcome of your mediation last Friday?

There were two attorneys there. Unfortunately we had to sign a Confidential agreement with the mediator so I can't speak about it. What I can say is that trial is set for February and will update then. I will NOT sign an NDA if they attempt to settle so I will report back either way.

Is your Q7 still fixed or did it pop back up?

 

[1badsnake]

Meh... no loss to me

So the 1st part doesn't apply as I'm not the original owner and/or not in the reoffer period.

#2 is very interesting. Would this fall under the subsequent owner (me) or is this talking about the original owner that chose to have it fixed instead of a buyback and still had issues? This is gold if I can figure out if this pertains to my case because it goes against their two buyback denials.

 

[TurboABA]

What did it say at the end of that statement?

 

[SundanceGS]

My Q7 is not fixed. I had two codes for the NOx sensors show up a couple of days ago (no MIL though). I also had an audible and visual alert related to the charging system come up while driving. The visual alert was a picture of a battery on the dash and a message saying “alternator is not charging battery”. I saw the two NOx sensors pop codes when I scanned to find out more about the charging system problem. This is now far less merry of a season.

 

[TurboABA]

On both my Touareg and my A6, I can pull the history file to analyze it and get additional clues when it comes to battery\alternator issues, health, etc.
I can only syspect that the same is available on your Q7

 

[TurboABA]

My Q7 is not fixed. I had two codes for the NOx sensors show up

You're not showing any detail, so I'm not sure if you're just telling a story or asking for some sort of assistance.

 

[SundanceGS]

I was just griping in my last post, but I am certainly willing to hear opinions and advice. Here are the error codes I found.

Gateway DTC 02252: Generator, electrical error in circuit

Engine DTC U044700: Invalid data received from serial data gateway module “A”

Engine DTC P220100: NOx sensor circuit range/Perfomance bank 1 sensor 1 (I’ve gotten this code multiple times over the past year. They’ve replaced sensors several times but it comes back)

Engine DTC P103200: NOx sensor signal too high

I snaked my boroscope down into the valley between the cylinder banks to see if there was a pool of coolant/oil that might have been the cause of my alternator issue. I saw a bit of black sludge, but nothing that looked like the pool (a gallon or more) that I’ve seen in various YouTube videos.

I don’t know why I constantly get NOx codes (and usually AdBlue system ones as well), but after 13 attempts the local dealer obviously hasn’t been able to properly diagnose/repair the cause.

 

[TurboABA]

Sorry, but I don't read codes that way.... I need full VCDS scan with FF data, not just what you choose to show\tell me.... the diagnostic tool already tells the story... you're just sharing small parts of it with your interpretation and potentially omitting very useful stuff.

 

[SundanceGS]

I wish I could give the level of detail that would be more helpful, but I don’t have VCDS. I understand if you can’t make anything out of what I posted. Thank you anyway for offering.

 

[TurboABA]

My man, what tool are you pulling those with? Does said tool display freeze frame data or any other details other than just a code and description?

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

My man, what tool are you pulling those with? Does said tool display freeze frame data or any other details other than just a code and description?

Once you have VCDS with FF data, never want to go back using a generic OBD tool. I say if you own any VAG vehicles to get VCDS. Worth every penny.

 

[SundanceGS]

Thanks for the advice regarding VCDS. I will look into getting it so that I can post more useful data.

 

[David Brickey]

Hoping for some advice on where to go from here. I have a 14 Passat with about 104,000 miles now on it. My 10 year emissions warranty ends this April. I have been having continuous DEF faults over the past 28,000 miles. What happens is the following...

CEL pops up and then less then a minute later the beep starts on the dash and the 200 miles to no start for DEF fault pops up. I have I believe 10 work orders now from 76k to now with complaints of CEL. I'm going to list my work orders so people can understand everything and notes from tech/dealer

76k - 200 mile to no start, confirmed code P204F. Advised that DEF was near empty (it wasn't, it was almost full so they lied on this). "Suspect tank was low and adblue sucked in air". ------ the low DEF alert never happened, it wasn't low. Was irate that they would state something like this. They reset the CEL and sent me on my way

79k - CEL light on - p2200 and p2201 found, replaced nox sensor.
80k - CEL is on - p205B ad blue temp sensor - replaced scr heater module and ad blue tank heater w/temp sensor.
85k - cel is on with 200 mile adblue error. - fault due to defective mass air flow sensor. replaced MAF
93k - CEL light is on with DEF 200 mile count down. Vehicle reset itself before I could get to dealer but have pictures of both warnings.
97k - CEL light was on, cleared itself before I could drop it off. dropped off, no CEL and dealer would not do anything because VW won't do anything without a CEL.
100k - found DEF injector crystalized, replaced injector as it was "leaking".
103k - dealer replaced NOX sensor per VW again due to CEL. Had vehicle for 23 days
103k - CEL and DEF countdown after 2 days from picking up car. VW had them replace the NOX catalyst.
103k - two days again after picking up "fixed", CEL and DEF countdown and it was dropped off today at dealer.

I have pictures to back up every CEL with mileage etc. I have the dealer stating VW is just having them throw parts at it.. there was no reason to have the NOX catalyst replaced.. has nothing to do with the DEF fault (their words). I've had 1 buyback request denied stating I didn't meet their criteria.

The first 5 work orders, I was denied a rental/loaner vehicle at the dealership level and VW wasn't of much help. My current dealer has been providing them at no charge.

Googling the P204F code, only things I find are people saying VW has no fix for this. Haven't found 1 person that has had this resolved. I can't delete emissions because my state tests. Frankly I don't trust the car and I shouldn't have to be going through this.

Also have from my dealer that they have had several customers going through this.. one person had 40+ work orders for this same issue and finally VW bought it back. They are not exaggerating about the 40 work orders. I have all this documented by the dealer. As stated, I have it from them as well that VW is just throwing parts at it. I don't know what's next as I have received basically a whole new emissions system minus the EGR and DPF. There is no TSB for the P204F code from VW.. so I'll be weeks again I'm sure till I get the phone call saying it's "fixed".

Worst part is that the 200 miles count down the last two times has not reset itself back to 200 miles. It went from 200 miles to 150.. reset. Popped back up at 150 and went down to 60 before it was dropped off at dealer. This is when it was reset again with the NOX catalyst replaced and when it popped up again two days later, it continued from 60 miles and now down to 30. I'm in fear I'll get it back "reset" and when it pops back up, it will start from 30 and end up leaving me stranded.

I can't take it on road trips.. have spent numerous days in the double digits for drop offs, pick ups, missing work, getting rides etc.

I don't know where to go from here. I'd love to lawyer up but don't want to have to pay out of pocket. The car purchased was $15,500 and that could easily be eaten up with attorneys fees.

Looking for some sound advice on how to get VW to buy it back and refund me.

Thanks for reading my book.

If you live in a place where you can, do a complete emissions delete, I did on my 13 passat, had def fault. I liked the improvement in fuel economy and power so much I did a de