Continuous DEF Faults - Dealer can't fix

[1badsnake]

Hoping for some advice on where to go from here. I have a 14 Passat with about 104,000 miles now on it. My 10 year emissions warranty ends this April. I have been having continuous DEF faults over the past 28,000 miles. What happens is the following...

CEL pops up and then less then a minute later the beep starts on the dash and the 200 miles to no start for DEF fault pops up. I have I believe 10 work orders now from 76k to now with complaints of CEL. I'm going to list my work orders so people can understand everything and notes from tech/dealer

76k - 200 mile to no start, confirmed code P204F. Advised that DEF was near empty (it wasn't, it was almost full so they lied on this). "Suspect tank was low and adblue sucked in air". ------ the low DEF alert never happened, it wasn't low. Was irate that they would state something like this. They reset the CEL and sent me on my way

79k - CEL light on - p2200 and p2201 found, replaced nox sensor.
80k - CEL is on - p205B ad blue temp sensor - replaced scr heater module and ad blue tank heater w/temp sensor.
85k - cel is on with 200 mile adblue error. - fault due to defective mass air flow sensor. replaced MAF
93k - CEL light is on with DEF 200 mile count down. Vehicle reset itself before I could get to dealer but have pictures of both warnings.
97k - CEL light was on, cleared itself before I could drop it off. dropped off, no CEL and dealer would not do anything because VW won't do anything without a CEL.
100k - found DEF injector crystalized, replaced injector as it was "leaking".
103k - dealer replaced NOX sensor per VW again due to CEL. Had vehicle for 23 days
103k - CEL and DEF countdown after 2 days from picking up car. VW had them replace the NOX catalyst.
103k - two days again after picking up "fixed", CEL and DEF countdown and it was dropped off today at dealer.

I have pictures to back up every CEL with mileage etc. I have the dealer stating VW is just having them throw parts at it.. there was no reason to have the NOX catalyst replaced.. has nothing to do with the DEF fault (their words). I've had 1 buyback request denied stating I didn't meet their criteria.

The first 5 work orders, I was denied a rental/loaner vehicle at the dealership level and VW wasn't of much help. My current dealer has been providing them at no charge.

Googling the P204F code, only things I find are people saying VW has no fix for this. Haven't found 1 person that has had this resolved. I can't delete emissions because my state tests. Frankly I don't trust the car and I shouldn't have to be going through this.

Also have from my dealer that they have had several customers going through this.. one person had 40+ work orders for this same issue and finally VW bought it back. They are not exaggerating about the 40 work orders. I have all this documented by the dealer. As stated, I have it from them as well that VW is just throwing parts at it. I don't know what's next as I have received basically a whole new emissions system minus the EGR and DPF. There is no TSB for the P204F code from VW.. so I'll be weeks again I'm sure till I get the phone call saying it's "fixed".

Worst part is that the 200 miles count down the last two times has not reset itself back to 200 miles. It went from 200 miles to 150.. reset. Popped back up at 150 and went down to 60 before it was dropped off at dealer. This is when it was reset again with the NOX catalyst replaced and when it popped up again two days later, it continued from 60 miles and now down to 30. I'm in fear I'll get it back "reset" and when it pops back up, it will start from 30 and end up leaving me stranded.

I can't take it on road trips.. have spent numerous days in the double digits for drop offs, pick ups, missing work, getting rides etc.

I don't know where to go from here. I'd love to lawyer up but don't want to have to pay out of pocket. The car purchased was $15,500 and that could easily be eaten up with attorneys fees.

Looking for some sound advice on how to get VW to buy it back and refund me.

Thanks for reading my book.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Contact VW and ask about a buyback for yours. The warranty doesn't end if they haven't resolved the issue, at least for this issue. Contact the class action lawyers who handled the VW emissions case.

 

[oilhammer]

If I didn't despise everything else with the CKRA, I'd try and buy one of these "unfixable" cars and fix it permanently... the NMS is a decent road trip sled otherwise. Really a shame.

 

[1badsnake]

Wow,

Contact VW and ask about a buyback for yours. The warranty doesn't end if they haven't resolved the issue, at least for this issue. Contact the class action lawyers who handled the VW emissions case.

Can't believe I left that out. I did submit for a buyback, theybdenied it saying I didn't meet the criteria.

I submitted for a reconsideration prior to the nox catalyst being replaced and haven't heard back, it's been 2 months.

I've now contacted an attorney and meeting with him this week to go over everything.

 

[1badsnake]

If I didn't despise everything else with the CKRA, I'd try and buy one of these "unfixable" cars and fix it permanently... the NMS is a decent road trip sled otherwise. Really a shame.

Really loved this car. Have had zero issues except this crap.

Can't delete in my state due to emissions testing every year.

 

[1badsnake]

Just got the phone call, car is ready... again.

VW told them to replace all 4 fuel injectors. What in the heck does fuel injectors have to do with a DEF fault.

And I will say the engine has always performed perfectly. No way the injectors are causing this.

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Maybe the injectors aren't operating right (but not to a degree that affects drivability) and the resultant DEF injection calculation is causing a math error that's messing with the computer? How are your MPGs?

Of course, it's more likely they're just shotgunning parts at it (though I find it interesting that this time the dealer is claiming that VW Corporate's directing that, rather than another case of the Dealer just doing it themselves. At least it sounds like this is happening on VW's nickel...

 

[1badsnake]

Maybe the injectors aren't operating right (but not to a degree that affects drivability) and the resultant DEF injection calculation is causing a math error that's messing with the computer? How are your MPGs?

Of course, it's more likely they're just shotgunning parts at it (though I find it interesting that this time the dealer is claiming that VW Corporate's directing that, rather than another case of the Dealer just doing it themselves. At least it sounds like this is happening on VW's nickel...

It's funny you say shotgunning because when I picked it up, that's exactly what the service manager did. Put his arms up, aimed and pulled the trigger. He also said "see you tomorrow" lol.

I average 42-43mpg all day long.

On a positive note, he stated that my case manager talked with him today and told him if it happens 1 more time, they are going to agree to buy it back. So we will see what happens.

Still pursuing a buyback through my attorney who I'm meeting with tomorrow. Not changing or risking my warranty being up in 3 months and being stuck with this.

 

[Muzzi423]

Contact VW and ask about a buyback for yours. The warranty doesn't end if they haven't resolved the issue, at least for this issue. Contact the class action lawyers who handled the VW emissions case.

Does anyone know if the def fluid should trickle out of hose directly off the tank or should it have pressure?

 

[Muzzi423]

Replaced def heater and def pump 2 weeks ago went 400 miles and def 200 mile shut done light appeared again tank is full
Disconnected the def fluid connector started car 2013 Passat sel def fluid trickles out Should it have a constant flow to injector or a trickle?

 

[SundanceGS]

Hello 1badsnake,

What was the final outcome to your troubles? I’m in a similar boat with a 2013 Q7 and also got my buyback request denied by Audi. I’m researching lawyers who have experience with this sort of thing and would like to know about the experience you had and final outcome.

 

[1badsnake]

Hello 1badsnake,

What was the final outcome to your troubles? I’m in a similar boat with a 2013 Q7 and also got my buyback request denied by Audi. I’m researching lawyers who have experience with this sort of thing and would like to know about the experience you had and final outcome.

The last work repair attempt VW told the dealer to replace all 4 fuel injectors. Management told me that it doesn't make sense to them but have to do what they say.

I ended up buying a 23 arteon and working on a trade for the passat. As soon as I got the car back, my plan was to drive out of state (about 90 min) away to trade in it. Dealer made an offer on it with a ton of pics sent for them to appraise. I made no mention of my issues.

About 20 min from the dealer, the CEL came on and the count down of 20 miles left started. I noticed that after the first several times of this, it would not reset to 200 and start over. It continued from the last time it was reset.

So a call to my servicing dealer first to let them know. Then a call to the trade in dealer to let them know. They told me since I'm so close just continue to them and that it's most likely an easy fix (they thought low DEF). When I arrived, the CEL was on but the countdown stopped. They honored the original trade value, Insigned the paperwork and left with the Arteon.

I then filed small claims against VW for the difference of Black Book Value and what I got for a trade. It's been a long process but due to the amount, I have to do mediation first which is next Friday.

Their attorneys response was histerical. Claiming the car has over 100k (true) and that I'm out of warranty (lie) and that I don't meet lemon law requirements. Frankly I don't think their attorney knows anything about dieselgate and warranty etc.

I was NOT going to hide this issue and sell it privately so I took quite a loss on it for a trade. I want to be made whole and I think I will win. I'm not going to go into my evidence etc that I have beyond service records but I think it's pretty slam dunk.

Will be entertained in Mediation with their clueless attorney.

Regarding the attorney, I spoke with the lawfirm that handled Dieselgate. They stated they can't help me because the case dealt with the original owners, not subsequent. Once the car changed hands, they were of no use. So I filed right after that phone conversation.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Snipped for brevity

Regarding the attorney, I spoke with the lawfirm that handled Dieselgate. They stated they can't help me because the case dealt with the original owners, not subsequent. Once the car changed hands, they were of no use. So I filed right after that phone conversation.

That is interesting to know.

 

[SundanceGS]

I agree, that is interesting to know. I was just researching how to contact the Dieselgate attorneys today as I was thinking of giving them a call to see how/if they could assist me. I guess they can't.

That's great that the dealer where you purchased the Arteon honored the original offer they gave you. And I'm with you on not hiding the issue and trying to offload the car onto an unsuspecting buyer. I don't like that it was done to me and I wouldn't do it to anyone else. Unfortunately, the dealer hasn't been able to solve the issue in the 12 different times I've taken it in for DEF system issues. Anyway, I generally can't get more than 50 or so miles out of it after they give it back before the CEL comes back on and I live 30 miles from the dealer. So trying to sell it would be amusing, as the CEL would likely come on during the test drive.

I just received my rejection for the buyback request yesterday from Audi of America. They don't say why my request was denied... just that "the situation does not merit a settlement offer". I'm not sure what else they want... I got the modification less than a year ago, I have had to take the car to the dealer 12 separate times for emissions issues (mostly DEF but some NOx and exhaust gas temp sensors as well), I've put less than 3,000 miles on it, and the total time in the shop has been around 200 days. This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. Maybe the VAG attorney who reviewed my case is the same guy you've spoken to.

Regarding the mediation, is this done by the Better Business Bureau Auto Line arbitration program? My denial letter stated I can go through that process if I choose, however, I read some reviews on other forums of folks who went through that process and each one of them said it was worthless. They recommended just getting a lawyer from the get-go and avoiding BBB arbitration. I've been on the fence whether to giving the BBB a shot or contacting a lawyer. I'll be very interested to hear how things go for you next Friday, whether it's done with the BBB or some other 3rd party. Are you representing yourself or did you contact a lawyer who will do so?

My latest status: my Q7 has been at the dealer for the past week being "fixed" again. I regret taking it in this time... I should have just parked it at this point until I can get this resolved through other means. It seems to me that if a dealer can't fix a problem in 12 tries then it's not fixable. They've thrown the parts cannon at it and, so far, everything has been covered by the warranty. But it's only a matter of time before they say "Ah, now we've found the problem! But it's not under warranty. Sorry!". I'm pretty sure I won't take them up on that if it happens.

At any rate, please post what happens next week. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who will be interested to read about it.

 

[1badsnake]

I agree, that is interesting to know. I was just researching how to contact the Dieselgate attorneys today as I was thinking of giving them a call to see how/if they could assist me. I guess they can't.

That's great that the dealer where you purchased the Arteon honored the original offer they gave you. And I'm with you on not hiding the issue and trying to offload the car onto an unsuspecting buyer. I don't like that it was done to me and I wouldn't do it to anyone else. Unfortunately, the dealer hasn't been able to solve the issue in the 12 different times I've taken it in for DEF system issues. Anyway, I generally can't get more than 50 or so miles out of it after they give it back before the CEL comes back on and I live 30 miles from the dealer. So trying to sell it would be amusing, as the CEL would likely come on during the test drive.

I just received my rejection for the buyback request yesterday from Audi of America. They don't say why my request was denied... just that "the situation does not merit a settlement offer". I'm not sure what else they want... I got the modification less than a year ago, I have had to take the car to the dealer 12 separate times for emissions issues (mostly DEF but some NOx and exhaust gas temp sensors as well), I've put less than 3,000 miles on it, and the total time in the shop has been around 200 days. This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. Maybe the VAG attorney who reviewed my case is the same guy you've spoken to.

Regarding the mediation, is this done by the Better Business Bureau Auto Line arbitration program? My denial letter stated I can go through that process if I choose, however, I read some reviews on other forums of folks who went through that process and each one of them said it was worthless. They recommended just getting a lawyer from the get-go and avoiding BBB arbitration. I've been on the fence whether to giving the BBB a shot or contacting a lawyer. I'll be very interested to hear how things go for you next Friday, whether it's done with the BBB or some other 3rd party. Are you representing yourself or did you contact a lawyer who will do so?

My latest status: my Q7 has been at the dealer for the past week being "fixed" again. I regret taking it in this time... I should have just parked it at this point until I can get this resolved through other means. It seems to me that if a dealer can't fix a problem in 12 tries then it's not fixable. They've thrown the parts cannon at it and, so far, everything has been covered by the warranty. But it's only a matter of time before they say "Ah, now we've found the problem! But it's not under warranty. Sorry!". I'm pretty sure I won't take them up on that if it happens.

At any rate, please post what happens next week. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who will be interested to read about it.

I'm sorry for the delay in responding. For some reason it didn't alert me there was a reply. I've been putting all my docs together for mediation tomorrow and decided to check on here and saw your post. I am representing myself.. I don't feel I need a lawyer. Sure it may help but the several thousand it will cost me to me isn't worth it. Again, I'm only suing for the difference between what I got for trade and what the vehicle was actually worth.

Both of my rejection letters stated I don't meet the criteria. Yet they will not tell you what the criteria is. I had 3 months left of my warranty before trading it in and wasn't going to wait any longer.

Regarding some of your questions.. the BBB autoline won't help you. They only handle vehicles within your states Lemon Law (which varies by state but to keep it simple, usually covers you for a couple years from new purchase and 24k to 36k miles (some 12k - 18k). So the BBB closed my case. Histerical that VW in their denial letter tells you to contact the Autoline if we want to file. Basically VW just trying to waste more of our time.

Total days of being out of service or waiting on parts was about 145 days across a 12 month period of time.

All they are trying to do is buy time so you fall out of warranty. People have said, if the issue isn't fixed by the time your warranty is up, they still must fix it but I've found posts from people stating VW told them to pound sand, there is no longer a warranty and what does one do? Lawyer up and spend thousands and thousands.

Would love to know more about this... "This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. " Can you link me?

Once we don't reach an agreement (curious on if VW will authorize a fraction of my lawsuit to try to settle or just say nope", then I'll be scheduled for small claims.

 

[TurboABA]

Would love to know more about this... "This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. " Can you link me?

Do you not know where to look for the warranty documents?

 

[TurboABA]

VW Emissions Modification Lookup

www.vwdiesellookup.com

 

[TurboABA]

Also.... TL;DR
When was this heap "fixed"? Date and Mileage?

 

[ghohouston]

I cannot say for Vw specifically, but on other Tier 4 final engines, P204F is a generic code that doesn't really mean anything, and further diagnosis is needed. There are almost always other codes stored along with P204f. It sounds like your dealer doesn't know *** they're doing.

 

[1badsnake]

I agree, that is interesting to know. I was just researching how to contact the Dieselgate attorneys today as I was thinking of giving them a call to see how/if they could assist me. I guess they can't.

That's great that the dealer where you purchased the Arteon honored the original offer they gave you. And I'm with you on not hiding the issue and trying to offload the car onto an unsuspecting buyer. I don't like that it was done to me and I wouldn't do it to anyone else. Unfortunately, the dealer hasn't been able to solve the issue in the 12 different times I've taken it in for DEF system issues. Anyway, I generally can't get more than 50 or so miles out of it after they give it back before the CEL comes back on and I live 30 miles from the dealer. So trying to sell it would be amusing, as the CEL would likely come on during the test drive.

I just received my rejection for the buyback request yesterday from Audi of America. They don't say why my request was denied... just that "the situation does not merit a settlement offer". I'm not sure what else they want... I got the modification less than a year ago, I have had to take the car to the dealer 12 separate times for emissions issues (mostly DEF but some NOx and exhaust gas temp sensors as well), I've put less than 3,000 miles on it, and the total time in the shop has been around 200 days. This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. Maybe the VAG attorney who reviewed my case is the same guy you've spoken to.

Regarding the mediation, is this done by the Better Business Bureau Auto Line arbitration program? My denial letter stated I can go through that process if I choose, however, I read some reviews on other forums of folks who went through that process and each one of them said it was worthless. They recommended just getting a lawyer from the get-go and avoiding BBB arbitration. I've been on the fence whether to giving the BBB a shot or contacting a lawyer. I'll be very interested to hear how things go for you next Friday, whether it's done with the BBB or some other 3rd party. Are you representing yourself or did you contact a lawyer who will do so?

My latest status: my Q7 has been at the dealer for the past week being "fixed" again. I regret taking it in this time... I should have just parked it at this point until I can get this resolved through other means. It seems to me that if a dealer can't fix a problem in 12 tries then it's not fixable. They've thrown the parts cannon at it and, so far, everything has been covered by the warranty. But it's only a matter of time before they say "Ah, now we've found the problem! But it's not under warranty. Sorry!". I'm pretty sure I won't take them up on that if it happens.

At any rate, please post what happens next week. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who will be interested to read about it.

I cannot say for Vw specifically, but on other Tier 4 final engines, P204F is a generic code that doesn't really mean anything, and further diagnosis is needed. There are almost always other codes stored along with P204f. It sounds like your dealer doesn't know *** they're doing.

P204F is an Adblue error code for VW. two different dealers, 11 times and VW engineering was always involved with the dealers. Without a doubt VW is clueless on this error and doesn't know how to fix it.

 

[ghohouston]

P204f is related to the dosing controller/ def system on tier 4 finals, but as very generic code that doesn't point in any specific direction. I truly can't say one way or another, was just giving you that info, in case it is also a generic code for Vw, which wouldn't suprise me.

 

[ghohouston]

What did they say the code definition was?

 

[1badsnake]

What did they say the code definition was?

I'm not sure how to answer any more then I already have. My first post shows all the mileage and what the dealer(s) replaced. The only thing missing from the original post is when it when in the last time, what they replaced. VW stated at 103k to replace all 4 injectors. I picked up the car, the DEF fault came on again the same day as I was traveling to the dealer I bought the Arteon from.

I no longer own it, I traded it in on the Arteon. So no further info can be provided or diagnosis. I feel bad for whoever got the car (I'm assuming it went to auction from the dealer).

As stated, I've had both the service manager and asst service manager both tell me VW has no idea and there is no fix.

 

[oilhammer]

Oh there's a fix for it....

 

[1badsnake]

Oh there's a fix for it....

Would have done that if I wasn't in an emissions testing state for yearly inspections.

 

[TurboABA]

I no longer own it, I traded it in on the Arteon.

When did that happen? It was only last week where you were asking for help on finding info regarding buyback.

 

[1badsnake]

When did that happen? It was only last week where you were asking for help on finding info regarding buyback.

No I didn't. I posted Nov 7th in my update that I traded it in.

I was asking about the warranty terms in whatever that 9.2 section was for more ammunition. If the person who mentioned it said his meets all the requirements for a BB but getting refused, mine certainly met them too but VW was obviously delaying and delaying on purpose. Lemon Law is typically 3-4 repair attempts. Obviously these TDIs are in a very grey area because they don't meet states LL coverage but you csnt tell me that anyone who has had continuous issues of the same thing after 11 repair attempts that it should have been bought back instead of trying to delay my warranty expiring 3 months later.

So just looking for more info for my lawsuit was all.

 

[TurboABA]

Would love to know more about this... "This seems to meet all the criteria in Section 9.2 of Appendix A of the consent decree. " Can you link me?

Once we don't reach an agreement (curious on if VW will authorize a fraction of my lawsuit to try to settle or just say nope", then I'll be scheduled for small claims.

I was talking about your Nov 14th questions.... I gave you some links and asked you some questions since, which you didn't answer to.
But since it's no longer an issue, I'll move on.... I guess I just misunderstood the "timeline".

 

[1badsnake]

I was talking about your Nov 14th questions.... I gave you some links and asked you some questions since, which you didn't answer to.
But since it's no longer an issue, I'll move on.... I guess I just misunderstood the "timeline".

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I took it as a sarcastic question (not really looking for an answer back) so I didn't bother replying.

I have a few different packets printed at home but dont think I have that section and unknown what it states.

Also not sure what TL;DR means.. and it was never fixed. I was floored 20 min left of my 2 hour trip to the Arteon dealer that the fault came back with 20 miles left to no start.

Fortunately it all worked out. And frankly I shouldn't have bout the Arteon as much as I love it. Should have never rewarded VW with another purchase after being treated like this.

Especially when my local dealer point blank said they would tell me to go elsewhere if they werent bound by law to try to fix them under the settlement.

 

[TurboABA]

Also not sure what TL;DR means.. and it was never fixed.

Too Long, Didn't Read
If it was never fixed (as in AEM), then you wouldn't ever qualify for a buyback and it wasn't part of the campaign.