Contaminated diesel?

[Field martial]

Here's my sad story...

14 April 2011: I recieve delivery of my 2011 jetta tdi, 6mt.

17 April 2011: Accelerating down country road (approx. 3100rpm) when glow plug light starts flashing. Car goes into limp mode Hardly any power, feels like the turbo is out of the picture. I take it home and park it immediatly.

19 april 2011: Take the car to the dealer. Here's a brief resume of what was on the work order I got back.
-fault P0087(fuel/rail system too low intermittent.
-gff tested fuel pump and pressure readings. tets plan empty
-removed fuel filter and checked for metal shavings. none found
-collected fuel in styrofoam cup. fuel not eating cup
-reroadtested vehicule and vehicule driving normally. no faults returned.

They kept the car overnight and tried to recreate my problem to no avail. I got the car back and it drove fine until....

29 April 2011: going up an on ramp when the glow plug light starts flasing and the car goes into limp mode again. I get off at the next exit, shut off the car, buy a coffee and then restart it to find that the glow plug light is no longer flashing and everything is wrking normally.

30 April 2011: Same thing, same place, same result. Shut the car off for 5min and everything fine when restarted.

2 May 2011: Take it back to the dealer. They plug it in and get back P0087 again. They checked the fuel lines from one end to the other and everything was fine. Here's a brief resume of the work order...
-checked fuel filter housing for debris corrosion. none found
-bleed system, road tested and checked for leaks. none found
-performed overnight road test, going up hill in 2nd gear, suddenly no power, glow plug light started flashing.
-verified faults, found P0087
-performed key cycle and all normal. noticed humming inside car. humming coming from aux fuel pump.
-foud dirt, debris in screen of fuel pump in tank.

5 May 2011: I get a call from the dealer telling me contaminated fuel is the source of all my problems.

After recieveing said phone call I dropped everything and went directly to the dealer. I said I wanted a fuel sample from the tank taken out in front of me. They were very understanding and let me hang out in the service bay as they brought the car in and took the sample. They also showed me the in tank aux fuel pump screen which did seem to have some sort of foreign matter in it. To me it looked like little bits of coagulated grease. I took pics of the in fliter screen.

The car has only ever been filled at Ultramar stations and Ultramar pipelines. I work for a hazzardous waste company that probably buys about 250k/yr of diesel from Ultramar. Add to that the fact that they are also one of our major clients. The car is a lease which is paid for by more employer. I spoke briefly with the president of the company and he made it clear that there was no way in hell we were going to go after Ultramar for a $2500 repair if, in fact, that was even the problem.

VWoC techs seem to think that if the tank is drained and cleaned, the lines flushed and the two aux pumps changed, everything should be fine. The dealer agrees but is unwilling to foot the bill. Their position is that it's not their fault. That said, they have fueled the car themselves on two seperate occasions (both times at Ultramar stations).

The dealer advised me to call VWoC customer care as they would have to give the dealer their okay to cover the work under warranty. I'm expecting their decision Monday. Does anyone have any ideas? To me it seems crazy that a 3 week old car should have thses sorts of problems.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

To me it seems crazy that a 3 week old car should have thses sorts of problems.

We it should not, but it does happen. We all can make mistakes or if you like SH** happens.

Be thankful it happened now. They are usually good about correcting a problem during the fist week.

 

[marc77777]

Keep us informed if the flushing of the system corrects the problem. I'm from montreal area as well, thanks for letting me know...no ultramar for me, not even on cheapie Tuesdays.
I am curious though, you picked up your car on April 14th and had issues on the 17th, did you even fill it up yourself or was it still the diesel the delaer put in?

 

[Field martial]

I'm pretty sure Ultramar supplies diesel for most stations (aside from petrocan) in south western quebec.
When I got the car it had about a quarter tank in it and I did a fair bit od driving the first cpl of days so yes, I did fil it up myself at the Pipeline on the service road of the 13 in VSL. I asked the dealer about where they gey their fuel and they told me it was always at Ultramar on Sources in DDO. They've never had a probem...

 

[dweisel]

The little blobs of grease sounds like when bio diesel congeals and separates out from the rest of the fuel. I've seen these small blobs form at temps as high as 50F. Does the fuel you are using have a percentage of bio diesel? I'm not sure how this would affect either the in tank fuel sending unit pump or the elec.aux pump. If the fuel pressure regulator valve fails it will throw a low fuel pressure code because adequate pressure cannot be maintained within the fuel rail. There was one case where this valve failed and it also cause the hpfp to fail. Have the techs check the fuel metering valve on the hpfp for metal particles. If the aux elec pump fails (elec.pump under the hood)the engine will NOT restart.So, I'm not sure why they are replacing both the fuel sending unit pump and aux pump. Seems to me the problem may be else where and possibly the fuel pressure regulator valve. N276

 

[Field martial]

As far as I know they don't add any biodiesel to their fuel. I could be wrong about that though.
From what I understand the reason for changing both aux pumps was because they wanted to make sure the debris didn't make its way to the hpfp.
I'll give them a call monday and ask if they checked the fuel metering valve. Letcha know what they say.

 

[dweisel]

As far as I know they don't add any biodiesel to their fuel. I could be wrong about that though.
From what I understand the reason for changing both aux pumps was because they wanted to make sure the debris didn't make its way to the hpfp.
I'll give them a call monday and ask if they checked the fuel metering valve. Letcha know what they say.

Any debris from the fuel tank should have been caught by the fuel filter. Doesn't make much sense to me. Hope it works out for you.

 

[Ski in NC]

^^Second that. The fuel filter is there to protect critical equipment from crud in the fuel. Crud upstream of the filter should have no effect on how the engine runs unless the filter is plugged.

Diesel fuel has junk in it. Fact of life. That's why there are filters in any diesel system. Usually two filters, for that matter. At least two.

 

[pipes p]

As far as I know they don't add any biodiesel to their fuel. I could be wrong about that though.
From what I understand the reason for changing both aux pumps was because they wanted to make sure the debris didn't make its way to the hpfp.
I'll give them a call monday and ask if they checked the fuel metering valve. Letcha know what they say.

i asked the manager of a injector repair outlet where i buy my stanydyne additive if the alberta government mandating b2 to be added to all diesel is true, he said it is and will be fully implimented by july 01 and that some refineries have already begun to to so. is it possible the same is happening where you live?

 

[PaulGiz]

There have been other reports of pressure regulators being bad. They go very early in the life of the car if defective.

I'm also quite skeptical about the "bad fuel" diagnosis. It is often the hiding place for the clueless.

P.

 

[dweisel]

There have been other reports of pressure regulators being bad. They go very early in the life of the car if defective.

I'm also quite skeptical about the "bad fuel" diagnosis. It is often the hiding place for the clueless.

P.

Its always going to be the fuel. Like I've said before.........if you NEVER put any fuel in the CR engines they will NEVER have any problems. So, its got to be the fuel. lol. Couple that with the fact that when there is a problem,the first thing VW tells the dealership to do. CHECK FUEL FOR GASOLINE,WATER AND ALCOHOL.

 

[Rod Bearing]

Did they run a chemical analysis on the fuel or is this another case of some expert in the dealer just eyeballing it?

 

[Field martial]

Nope. Not to my knowledge. I assume that that they base the contamination theory on the debris they found in the screen of the in tank pump and the discoloured fuel filtre.
I have pictures of both and wil add them to the thread when I get a chance.
I plan on taking the fuel sample I took to my company's chemist tomorrow. I'll post her findings here when I get them back.

 

[Rod Bearing]

In all my decades working on diesels I've never seen perfect diesel fuel, a perfectly clean tank, a perfectly clean tank suction screen, nor primary filter, even on brand new stuff. It is just impossible to achieve. That's why they make fuel filters. That's why they're discolored once fuel is run through them.

I have several CR TDI's and I often find small little greasy looking buggers on the filter paper. One of my cars has over 170,000 miles (2009 Jetta sedan) and it's trouble free.

It is on VW to prove the fuel you put in the tank is contaminated at all, and then they need to prove it is contaminated with something that can cause failure of their components. (Chem analysis) Get your own done as a backup plan.

Most all refined fuel has some degree of contamination in it. When bio diesel is added the x factor of contamination in the station goes up a lot. Bio diesel is next to impossible to get without some amount of byproduct of the source, methanol or water entrained in it. Granted It's not a lot, most often very small trace amounts, but it's there.

You've likely only had a few tanks through it thus far. How can the dealer be certain it wasn't from the fill they provided when new, or from Puebla when built?

 

[Field martial]

I got a phone call from the service manager today to let me know they were bringing in in the regoinal service manager to take over the 'investigation'. Apparently they should have an answer for me tomorrow.
I took the opportunity to reiterate my position on all of this and took care to mention that they themselves had fueled the car on at least three seperate occasions. Keeping my fingers crossed...

 

[dweisel]

Thats right. They put ''contaminated fuel'' in your car. Of course, their out will be. '' no other vehicles from that station are having problems''

I know one member that after VW blamed his hpfp on ''bad fuel'' warranty denied. Now exclusively fuels at the same fuel station that the local VW dealer fuels at. Luckly his insurance company picked up the $9,100.00 repair cost. He was still stuck for the $1000 deductible.

I'm not sure where they are trying to go in your situation?????

 

[DieselNerd]

If the dealer wanted to charge that much to put in a fuel pump, I'd spend the money going to the local diesel college and do it myself. Sheesh!

 

[Field martial]

No news...
I'm starting to get this bad feeling that I'm going to be handing them back the keys tomorrow.

 

[fastalan]

Could be just bad luck and when filling up the car, the diesel tank in the station just happens to be low on fuel, hence all the junks at the bottom of the tank got pumped in? I've read on numerous occasion that it is a bad idea to fill up right after the fuel truck has made the delivery. Field martial, have you talked to the fuel station if they have insurance to cover this kind of incident. All commercial fuel stations must have liability insurance, just need to know what's covered what's not. Again, I don't know the design of the underground fuel tank, would the station need to replace some kind of master fuel filter on a regular basis? Was the maintenance done according to scheduled? I know you trust your fuel supplier, but it is still managed by human and human can make mistake.

 

[Field martial]

So... I got a call from them this morning to tell me my car was fiixed and that I could pick it up after lunch.
Their explanation of what the problem was is that the fuel lines were inversed at some junction under the car. They discovered this when they were flushing out the lines to get rid of the "contaminated" diesel.
Sometimes you just have to laugh.
I told them I wanted the warranty to restart as of todays date and mileage. They said they'll get back to me on that one.
As for me I'm just happy to have my car back and running like it's supposed to.

 

[dweisel]

So... I got a call from them this morning to tell me my car was fiixed and that I could pick it up after lunch.
Their explanation of what the problem was is that the fuel lines were inversed at some junction under the car. They discovered this when they were flushing out the lines to get rid of the "contaminated" diesel.
Sometimes you just have to laugh.
I told them I wanted the warranty to restart as of todays date and mileage. They said they'll get back to me on that one.
As for me I'm just happy to have my car back and running like it's supposed to.

So, are they claiming the lines were installed improperly at the factory or that the tech switched them at some point?

This kind of stuff just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Glad your up and running again.

Here's my sad story...

14 April 2011: I recieve delivery of my 2011 jetta tdi, 6mt.

17 April 2011: Accelerating down country road (approx. 3100rpm) when glow plug light starts flashing. Car goes into limp mode Hardly any power, feels like the turbo is out of the picture. I take it home and park it immediatly.

19 april 2011: Take the car to the dealer. Here's a brief resume of what was on the work order I got back.
-fault P0087(fuel/rail system too low intermittent.
-gff tested fuel pump and pressure readings. tets plan empty
-removed fuel filter and checked for metal shavings. none found
-collected fuel in styrofoam cup. fuel not eating cup
-reroadtested vehicule and vehicule driving normally. no faults returned.

They kept the car overnight and tried to recreate my problem to no avail. I got the car back and it drove fine until....

29 April 2011: going up an on ramp when the glow plug light starts flasing and the car goes into limp mode again. I get off at the next exit, shut off the car, buy a coffee and then restart it to find that the glow plug light is no longer flashing and everything is wrking normally.

30 April 2011: Same thing, same place, same result. Shut the car off for 5min and everything fine when restarted.

2 May 2011: They checked the fuel lines from one end to the other and everything was fine. Evidently they did not check the fuel lines from one end to the other or they would have found the lines were switched.

5 May 2011:I get a call from the dealer telling me contaminated fuel is the source of all my problems. Seems to me the dealership is the source of most of your problems. Where was the contaminated fuel???
I guess they really didn't have any idea of what they were talking about and just totally forgot about the "contaminated fuel".

VWoC techs seem to think that if the tank is drained and cleaned, the lines flushed and the two aux pumps changed,everything should be fine.

Is this the point where your fuel lines became switched?

 

[Field martial]

I asked the same questionn.
Apparently in the MKVI-A5 engines, the pump and specific portion of the lines in question come pre-assembled from whoever or wherever it is that manufactures them so they didn't bother checking that portion of the lines when they first examined the car.
Let's just say that at this point that I'm quite doubtful of anything they're telling me.

 

[snakeye]

Why do you think your warranty should restart? Just wondering.

Btw Ultramar is garbage. Just plain old 40 cetane with no additives. Go to Petro-Canada or Shell (I think Harnois is also good if you have any nearby).

 

[Field martial]

Why do I think the warranty should restart? The problem first appeared on the 3rd day I had the car. As for ultarmar, I don't have a choice. The car is a job perk and ultramar is one of our biggest clients and biggest suppliers so they handed me a pipeline card and said fuel here unless you're stuck. So... You know.