Cold Weather Trouble

[VeeDubTDI]

OK, it is 7:58 PM EST..... Did you get it back????

Have you read the thread????

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

If this were my car I'd (a) want a part number of what they replaced, as calling something a high pressure fuel pump doesn't necessarily mean the HPFP to me. Consider that the person who wrote the invoice probably has little or no knowledge of these car's systems. They could as easily think the in-tank pump was high pressure. People call the in-tank pumps in newer gassers high pressure because they're 50 PSI instead of 15. And (b) I would want to know the cause of the problem. To me leaving the fuel in the tank means they left the fuel in the tank, nothing more. It could have damaged a the pump or clogged the sender in the in-tank pump, and if so may do it again.

Instead of complaining about the condition of the car's interior (or in addition to it) I would have wanted a lot more answers than you got. And I think without the answers I would not have picked up the car. Now that it's back in your possession they really have no incentive to tell you anything.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

If this were my car I'd (a) want a part number of what they replaced, as calling something a high pressure fuel pump doesn't necessarily mean the HPFP to me. Consider that the person who wrote the invoice probably has little or no knowledge of these car's systems. They could as easily think the in-tank pump was high pressure. People call the in-tank pumps in newer gassers high pressure because they're 50 PSI instead of 15. And (b) I would want to know the cause of the problem. To me leaving the fuel in the tank means they left the fuel in the tank, nothing more. It could have damaged a the pump or clogged the sender in the in-tank pump, and if so may do it again.

Instead of complaining about the condition of the car's interior (or in addition to it) I would have wanted a lot more answers than you got. And I think without the answers I would not have picked up the car. Now that it's back in your possession they really have no incentive to tell you anything.

I was livid, thus I wasn't up for playing Sherlock Holmes in asking questions. In fact, the only thing I could do was to chew the young terp playing the Service Manager role for leaving the inside car (and engine cover) like the dirty pits of Daytona 500.

Yes, an incompetent Dealer Service may have left the real culprit lurking in the tank (which is why VeeDubTDi advises to check the tank with a flashlight).

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Can you scan or post a picture of the invoice for us?

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Can you scan or post a picture of the invoice for us?

It is a legal document and it requires heavy redaction ( ::::::::: ). In fact, if I have to make lemonade, then it is all I have.

The meat and potatoes of the document are only three lines, and three items:

Com - Customer States no start?
Cau - hi pressure fuel pump faulty
Corr - removed and replaced hi pressure fuel pump assembly, test drove ok vehicle running as desinged
TOW IN XXX __________________________W
########### FILTERELEM _______1____W
###########XX PUMP __________1____W

 

[tdiatlast]

Hey TDI2000Zim, do you happen to know the current part number for a Hi pressure fuel pump assembly? Thanks.

Surely you're not breaking any protocol by posting parts numbers. You don't have to tell us if those numbers are on your invoice. If they happen to also be on your invoice, there's nothing to prevent you from telling anyone. You do have an invoice, which was given to you, right?

 

[TDI2000Zim]

The Zim Hypothesis (if indeed the HPFP failed, since I don't have the evidence at hand):

Leaving the car cold soaking in my semi-heated car garage for 12 days thickened the diesel in the tank (even when the tank was completely FULL).

Somehow (why???), the HPFP got starved out of fuel (cranking the engine three times before turning it on at the third instance Thursday Morning probably rubbed/worn the HPFP piston down, priming IT for total failure 6 hours later, when the engine wouldn't turn on at all).
​

So the HPFP can fail, not only when gasoline is present in the fuel tank, but when the diesel gells up, as well as for any other fuel reason...

Which means that the HPFP is 1000 times less robust than the old ALH fuel pump.

Two more things:

First, why wouldn't diesel reach the HPFP in the first place? Diesel gelling is nothing new on Earth. The only other design which I saw behaving similarly was when we had the funky Fuel Level Sender in our 2000 ALHs, the one which required the Canadian version to replace our faulty American versions (http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1275 , the Secret Recall...).

Second, we should be hearing HORROR stories from Europe (and the rest of the world), where half the VW cars are TDI units. Why isn't the HPFP failing in those other markets at the level of the American market? Can it be the American 15 ppm Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel be the issue here, versus the European 50 ppm ULSD?
​

Well, I got to thank Longo for being my head shrink; I thought I was the only victim of this psychological phenomenon on Earth: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3031382&postcount=46.

Bluegrass has also done a swell job at trying to diagnose the actual problem on all HPFP, and since the unit today has the same part number as the unit as in 2010, my guess is that the problem persists now, or until something major pushes VW to improve the HPFP design:

• http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=279537

• http://www.vwdiely.sk/image/03L130755.JPG
• http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/CP4-1-DS-14182_Pump.jpg
• http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=64811&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=43654

 

[tdiatlast]

I know you're grasping at straws with this, but let me offer my opinion:
1) I seriously doubt you've got a fuel gelling issue, unless you live in Antartica, and your semi-heated garage is only getting to -10f. I assume "semi-heated" means well above freezing, even with the full tank close to the door. NJ treated fuel shouldn't be even close to gelling if ambient is above freezing.
2) Because of #1 above, I think your speculation about fuel starvation, while it might have some merit, isn't related to gelling, but possibly another fuel, or lift-pump, issue. gloppy fuel, crud, etc. I'd be more interested in searching for a fuel pressure valve that didn't hold sufficient pressure at the HPFP, IF it was fuel starvation.
3) The HPFP on the Passat is NOT the same has on the 2010...I don't recall the difference, but it is definitely not the same. Someone will no doubt weigh in with the difference.
4) USA fuel has been a problem since the advent of the CR. Lubricity has been woefully inconsistent from region to region, from station to station.
5) I'm wondering why you've narrowed your theory down to fuel starvation at the HPFP? It may have just been a bad pump, one that somehow failed w/o shredding itself. You just happen to be the unlucky one of 10s of thousands of HPFP that have NOT failed.
These are just random thoughts. Quite frankly, I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about your servicing dealer. I'm not sure they necessarily did the right thing. That's just my opinion, of course.
Anxious to find out what you see when you look at your fuel. Hope it's nice and clean in there...or...maybe you'll find a shop rag floating around with a note attached from a disgruntled Tennessees good-ole-boy!

 

[TDI2000Zim]

That last line is priceless

.

If I find that rag, It'll make my day (think of it, no more fear of HPFP failure ).

 

[Softrockrenegade]

My guess would be a faulty fuel metering valve or electrical connection to the HPFP and in typical VW fashion they replaced the entire pump .

 

[VeeDubTDI]

My guess would be a faulty fuel metering valve or electrical connection to the HPFP and in typical VW fashion they replaced the entire pump .

I was wondering about that, as well - or perhaps an internal seal failure that prevented it from building pressure.

Still waiting for a fuel tank shrapnel report.

I do not agree with your fuel gelling hypothesis... Not at all. We have been down to -13F in two Passats recently with no additives and no problems.

 

[tdiatlast]

VeeDubTDI: No additives? Are you kidding me? The last time I had dinner with you guys, you were drinking enough beer to fill your AdBlue tank many times over. Don't tell us "...no additives..."

 

[lojeff10]

Which nj dealership have you been working with?

 

[car54]

VeeDubTDI: No additives? Are you kidding me? The last time I had dinner with you guys, you were drinking enough beer to fill your AdBlue tank many times over. Don't tell us "...no additives..."

I have never seen veedubtdi drink beer. liquor maybe, but certainly not beer.

 

[tdiatlast]

...whoops...my bad...it was margueritas...sorry to sully your reputation, VeeDubTDI...

 

[chimaera]

Can it be the American 15 ppm Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel be the issue here, versus the European 50 ppm ULSD?

Just FYI: The latest revision of the European diesel standard, EN590-2009 A1-2010 reduced the sulphur content to 10 mg/kg. Lubricity is still specified as maximum 460 μm wear scar (HFRR).

Lubricity is a problem in the US because ASTM D975 continues to have an inadequate lubricity specification (a search on this site will reveal detailed discussion of the issue).

I suspect the issue with the OP's car may just be one of those random failures, if indeed it is the HPFP. There's nothing in the description of the issue or the run-up to it that'd suggest a fuel issue IMO. Sadly even with 6-sigma manufacturing methods, there's always the one in a million part that fails, and someone has to get it in their car. If the problem is solved and you enjoy the car, why spend time looking for an explanation that isn't there?

It does sound like the dealer didn't bother their arse doing a detailed fault diagnosis either.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Dear Chimaera, I don't believe in playing the lottery, or gambling.

As a fellow PhD ME, I am skeptical about chance events, particularly where DESIGN is involved.

Look up at the big thread on the HPFP, its failure is ABOVE AVERAGE for a typical mechanical device, http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=308323. It may be an issue of production, or it may be an issue of design, but it isn't random.

 

[tdiatlast]

TDI2000Zim: I've been following the HPFP failure threads since they started in May/June 2009. I honestly believe I've read every one.

Your "failure" is completely atypical. It doesn't match a single HPFP failure that I've read about in this forum.

I agree with Chimaera. If in fact your HPFP failed, it was NOT like any other failure posted to date.

There are several here that are taking this very seriously. Everyone is nervously looking for "trends", or the "Ah HA!" moment, with regard to the 2012-2013 Passat TDI and HPFP failure. This "failure" isn't it, w/o much more evidence.

My opinion, of course.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

BTW, I don't see you owning a '13 Passat TDi.

Does that preclude him from participating in the discussion? I don't own a '13 Passat TDI either.

 

[TomB]

Does that preclude him from participating in the discussion? I don't own a '13 Passat TDI either.

If he claims first hand knowledge of the 2012/2013 model year vehicle.

 

[tdiatlast]

jeez, TomB, give it a rest. He made no such claim. His post was perfectly valid re: lubricity standards, and his opinion that, even under the strictest manufacturing conditions, manufactured parts will fail.
His comment about the OPs posts "run-up" giving no indication of a fuel-related problem, I think, is perfectly valid.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

If he claims first hand knowledge of the 2012/2013 model year vehicle.

He does?

 

[phlfly]

We still don't know a cause of failure, so this big argue is useless, and it doesn't matter if you have PdD or just high school diploma. VW knows something that we don't know.
When BMW came with turbo engine (HPFP) on US market, it took them 3 revisions for HPFP before the problem is gone. I guess BMW afraid lawsuits since most BMW buyers are rich people. Also remember they didn't react on 3-series until same thing started happen on 535. The E60 535 came market late 2008, way after E90 335.
So just wait it should happen something in the next couple years.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

You're right on the money - and we've already seen a significant decrease in failures as compared to the previous commonrail engines. I'm still watching this to see if any more info comes out about what happened and why - definitely not sweating a high pressure pump failure like I would be in some of the other vehicles.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

In my 2000 Beetle TDi the way to the fuel level sender in the fuel tank was by lifting up the rear seat cushion (the seat cushion loop was easy to find), unscrewing the metal cover, and then unscrewing the tank cap over the fuel level sender.

How do I lift up the rear seat cushion in the Passat?

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Found it:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3989279&postcount=4

 

[TomB]

jeez, TomB, give it a rest. He made no such claim. His post was perfectly valid re: lubricity standards, and his opinion that, even under the strictest manufacturing conditions, manufactured parts will fail.
His comment about the OPs posts "run-up" giving no indication of a fuel-related problem, I think, is perfectly valid.

LOL! I was just responding to VeeDub's challenge.

I personally am tired of people with failures on other product lines or even different manufacturers, with different parts trying to associate the issue they had with a vehicle they know nothing about and don't actually own.

Just because the Jetta had massive failures in a part does NOT mean that is what is the failure in this model, that is just wild a** speculation.

 

[tdiatlast]

LOL indeed. I completely agree re: advice from outside the model being discussed.
I'm glad we've got a dedicated NMS forum. The MkV forum can be quite perplexing, as it includes pre-CR models...therefore, all fuel lubricity and oil-type discussions can be very confusing.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

What challenge was that again?

Also, +1 on being tired of wild-ass speculations.

For the record, Chimaera made no such speculation.

 

[psd1]

Any update available on this incident?