CNN Presents (We Were Warned), NO mention of Biodiesel

Driver_found

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Just watched CNN Presents http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/, where they describe what the world would be like without current oil supplies and stability. They made a very good presentation about Ethanol, with some Hydrogen, hybrid and other technologies thrown in.
But NO MENTION of Biodiesel as a way to minimize or eliminate our foriegn oil dependency.
We should all write CNN http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?14 and mention this glaring lack of fair journalism. Willie Nelson must be furious by now.
-Mike
 

03_01_TDI

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they had just one sentance about how ethanol has less MPG's. That it the key thing.

Plus they barley hinted on smaller cars or less commuting to work. ie lifestyle changes.
 

vikingrob

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You have to wonder, since they gave quite a bit of airtime to the situation in Brazil and its fleet of flex-fuel vehicles that, according to the program, are designed to run from E25 to E100; they even had Frank Sesno behind the wheel of a car running on E100. driving through sugar-cane fields. Not a single TDI in the show - very disappointing.

There are other ideas that are out there that may be viable for the volumes needed to not just reduce but outright replace newly-pumped crude oil for energy needs. Part would be large-scale conversion of solid waste into useful energy sources, another would be production of agri-biofuels (such as ethanol and biodiesel), and another would be types of energy from solar energy striking the earth, such as solar and wind power. Yet another would be geothermal energy.
 

ikendu

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Driver_found said:
We should all write CNN...
Yup. We just gotta keep trying to get that message out.

Things are hugely better now though. When I first started talking to people about biodiesel (3 years ago), no one had heard of it. Now, many people at least know that it exists.
 

Driver_found

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Everyone be sure to email them. They are supposed to be about 'fair' and thorough journalism.

-Mike
 

c5loadmaster

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Well, I sent CNN my 2 cents worth. Their program was maily about gasoline, I guess they didn't think diesel cars and truck were that important to consider.
Robert
 

ikendu

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In all fairness to CNN, 99% of our passenger car market is gasoline.

So... I'm not too surprised to see no mention of biodiesel. When I lecture on biodiesel, I often get enthusiastic people come up afterwards that didn't catch when I said "You have to own a diesel" and then look really crestfallen when they find out they can't switch overnight to biodiesel in their gasoline cars.

I'm just happy that biodiesel is finally getting some press and that people are finding out about it.
 

03_01_TDI

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plus no mention of how the EPA/big brother is keeping many of the 40+ mpgs diesel cars out of the US market. Including the VW Lupo that gets well over 60mpgs.
 

lawallac

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Message sent to CNN. Here's a question. Ethanol is made from distilling spirits from corn, right. And BD is made from pressing out the oil of mainly soybeans. Well, which is more cost effective at the production level? I've never worked out the equation for theoretical yield compared to actual, but it seems as if BD is greater. Also, since BD uses the oil and ethanol production must utilize the sugar portion, is it not possible to get both fuel from the same crop? Understandably, corn is not as effective of an oil producer as soy and soy not a great sugar source.
 

c5loadmaster

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One interesting point about the program is Brazil and using it's sugar cane crop for ethanol to run their vehicles. It would be interesting if Hawaii did the same for their auto population. They have the highest gasoline prices in the country.
Robert
 

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We should also look to Brazil for the unintended side-effects that can follow a full scale biofuel conversion effort.

Their government declared that x% (I think it was 25%) of the fuel used in the country must be ethanol. This caused many farmers to convert their crops to sugarcane, which led to a widespread shortage of basic foods like rice and beans.

What happens to you tofu eaters when the soybean farmers start selling to ExxonMobilTexacoBPPhillips? And what happens to you beef eaters (soybeans are the main feed on a cattle lot)?

I'm all for biodiesel, personally, but my hopes are pinned on feedstocks that don't already have competitive and lucrative markets. Go algae!
 

c5loadmaster

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Beeble, you have a point there.
Germany uses rape seed oil for their biodiesel. It's poison to humans but not to animals. Canada took this plant and hybridized it and now call it Canola Oil and they use it in their BD.
Robert
 

ikendu

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In both cases, biodiesel pressed from soy beans and ethanol distilled from corn kernals, much of the food value for animal feed remains after the process is complete. For biodiesel, you are left with a high protein cake after oil pressing and for ethanol you are left with "distillers grains". Both of these make a fine animal feed (where most corn and soy beans go anyway).

Brazil, although it devotes to huge areas to sugar cane, is also one of the world's big food exporters. Midwest farmers are always keeping an eye on weather in Brazil to try to understand how their crop yields might compete with our crop yields (like for soy beans). If fact, China has written huge contracts with Brazil for soy beans. So... if there is a shortage of rice and beans in Brazil, it is not because there is not enough acreage to grow it.

As far as food shortage from using "food" to create fuel, as I say, there is plenty of food value left after processing. If we ever did worry about that, we could simply start to shift our production of meat. Beef takes the largest amount of vegetable protein to create (20 pounds of vegetable protein to raise one pound of beef). Hogs take less and poultry even less. That is why you often see the world's poorest countries focusing on hogs and poultry for their meat.

As a 20+ year vegetarian, it won't bother me to see people shift to more vegetable protein in their diets! Whole societies in India have been doing this for centuries.

I hope we rapidly research energy crops that don't detract from our food supply at all. It seems like algae would be like that and switchgrass too. Switchgrass is a perennial (once planted, grows year after year with no re-planting) ...so no annual tilling, no replanting, tiny fertilizer inputs compared to corn, holds the top soil and actually builds it (unlike corn which practically promotes soil erosion the way we kill off all the weeds so they don't clog the harvesters and pollute the corn yields. It even seems possible to develop a switchgrass field mix of native plants that complement each other (like native legumes that fix nitrogen in the soil) so that no fertilizer is needed at all. I heard a guy say (I think in that CNN special) that cellulosic ethanol from switchgrass would be on-line in 5 years at a commercial scale. There is a pilot plant in Canada operating right now.

As far as which is more cost efficient, biodiesel or ethanol, you get higher per acre yields with ethanol from corn but somewhat similar yields for net energy as biodiesel from soy beans due to the much higher energy balance of soy biodiesel vs. corn ethanol.

See table:

 

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I don't think I was clear in the describing the fuel self-sufficiency mandate in Brazil.

ikendu said:
So... if there is a shortage of rice and beans in Brazil, it is not because there is not enough acreage to grow it.
Certainly, there's plenty of land in Brazil. The shortage was an economic artifact - after the govt. mandate, there was a shortage of ethanol, so the prices rose quickly and farmers converted their production from food to ethanol.

ikendu said:
I hope we rapidly research energy crops that don't detract from our food supply at all.
Exactly. I'm a vegetarian, too, and don't see the sense in feeding a steer 2000 lbs of soybeans to get 100 lbs of beef. But if we're going to grow soybeans, I'd rather see that ton of beans feed people directly or, perhaps, run my car for a week.
 

ikendu

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Beeble said:
Certainly, there's plenty of land in Brazil. The shortage was an economic artifact - after the govt. mandate, there was a shortage of ethanol, so the prices rose quickly and farmers converted their production from food to ethanol.
This is the first I have heard of this... and I'd like to know more.

Do you have any links to this?
When was this?

Thanks!
 

Beeble

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Sorry, I'm unable to come up a more reputable source than myself. I asked my wife, who's a professor of Latin American studies, if she could remember when it occurred, and she drew a blank as well, though she remembered it happening.

I wish I could be more specific, but all I can give you is hearsay and recollection, which isn't much of a reference, I'm afraid. My apologies for getting your hopes up.

Is there an economist in the house?
 

ikendu

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Was it last year?
Five years ago?
Ten years ago?
20 years ago?

...just a ballpark idea would help.

Thanks!
 

Redleg

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Ballpark figure

ikendu said:
Was it last year?
Five years ago?
Ten years ago?
20 years ago?

...just a ballpark idea would help.

Thanks!
IIRC from a show I saw on either Discovery or History, Brazil's switch to ethanol was driven by the 1973 oil crisis, but i may be wrong
 

Kabin

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Redleg said:
IIRC from a show I saw on either Discovery or History, Brazil's switch to ethanol was driven by the 1973 oil crisis, but i may be wrong
I recall that mentioned in the CNN show.
 

hank miller

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lawallac said:
Also, since BD uses the oil and ethanol production must utilize the sugar portion, is it not possible to get both fuel from the same crop? Understandably, corn is not as effective of an oil producer as soy and soy not a great sugar source.
Yes:
http://www.greenshift.com/news.php?id=84

The amount of oil is fairly trivial, but money is money and if I read the press release right it doesn't cost much to get it.

Or you could use a wet-milling of the corn. Much easier to control what you get from the process. A wet-mill plant can easily shift production from ethanol to corn syrup depending on prices, and corn oil is a by-product, (As I recall there are other products that wet mills can derive from corn that dry-milling cannot). Wet mills also happen to be the plants critics are talking about when the mention ethanol is not energy positive - a wet mill uses much more energy to produce ethanol than a dry mill.
 

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I saw it on link tv. Brazil is getting into the ethanol buisness with thier
sugar cane crops. ..Cnn will never give biod or ethanol a fair shake until
the ethanol or biodiesel producers start buying thier advertising..you know
like exxon and mobil do. Brazil mandated ethanol use to keep it at home.
They make it why not use it instead of sucking at the corporate teat.
There are more flex vehicles in south america then here.
Most folks don't even know they own a flex vehicle in the u.s.
Most newer toyotas are all flex. Simply a comp flash that can tell when you are using ethanol and adjust air accordingly.
 

fredb

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I saw it on link tv. Brazil is getting into the ethanol buisness with thier
sugar cane crops. ..Cnn will never give biod or ethanol a fair shake until
the ethanol or biodiesel producers start buing thier advertising..you know
like exxon and mobil do;). Brazil mandated ethanol use to keep it at home.
They make it why not use it instead of sucking at the corporate teat.
there are more flex vehicles in south america then here.
Most folks don't even know they own a flex vehicle in the us.
Most newer toyotas are all flex. Simply a comp flash that can tell when you are using ethanol and adjust air accordingly.
 

c5loadmaster

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I was watching ABC News Now which is broadcast from 0200 - 0330 EST, this is also streamed on the internet also, this morning and they ran a segment on the ethanol from sugar cane. I sent them an email about doing a segment on biodiesel. I'n not holding my breath, though.

Rob
 
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