Clutch won't engage- can't figure it out

[xrdan]

First time posting but I read here quite a bit. 2003 Jetta TDI, 150k miles, clutch feels strong- car in good condition overall. Anyway, pulling out of our street this morning I shift to 2nd (not beating on it by any stretch of the imagination) and when I let the clutch out it felt like it jumped out of gear. Tried all gears and nothing. Coasted over to the side and shifted trans and it felt normal. This was with the engine running and foot off the clutch. No hint of engagement from the clutch. I had something similar with a truck I had in the past when the fingers broke off the pressure plate but in that case the pedal went to the floor. This time the pedal feel is unchanged.
I was thinking maybe stripped splines or a broken input shaft? The only problem with that is the only time it makes any noise (mild grinding/scraping) is with the clutch pushed in. Silence with it out so it seems opposite of what I was thinking.
I searched and saw plenty of reasons for it not disengaging but nothing like this. If you have any ideas or input it would be most appreciated.

Thanks
Dan

 

[Brett San Diego]

Is your shift linkage OK? Easy to check the linkage at the transmission. If the linkage at the transmission looks good, then have someone watch the transmission end while you move the gear shifter. Make sure it really is going into gear to verify that the linkage at the gear shifter inside the car is OK. If the shift linkage checks out, then maybe it is a failed clutch.

My first thought was that maybe one of your CV joints separated, but if I understand your post correctly, you are able to move the gear shifter into gear while the engine is running without pressing on the clutch pedal. That would not be the case if you had a failed CV or if all the bolts backed out, and the CV separated from the flange.

Brett

 

[Tdijarhead]

Yeah check your inner cv joints it sounds like one of those came apart and not your clutch. I also had an outer cv come apart once. That will give you the same result but harder to spot because the axle is not hanging like it usually is when the inners come loose.

 

[PakProtector]

Let's play a quick game of 'IS/IS NOT'

IS-no connection between crankshaft and contact patches

unknown-where this disconnect is happening, outer CV, inner CV, diff, other gear meshes, clutch disc to input spline, clutch jammed in 'disengaged position by ???, transmission not actually shifting into a gear

So...seems useful to attempt eliminating some of the 'unknown' and turn them into 'IS NOT'

Douglas
wishing you best o' luck and fortune in determining what to fix...

 

[xrdan]

Had a chance to look at it today. CVs connected on both ends, trans going into gear correctly. With it jacked the tires freewheel independently of each other- no connection at all. I guess the diff let go. So I guess I'm looking for a transmission.

 

[agent_jwa]

Well the cv can be broken without tearing the boots. You need to get under and see if the axle shafts turn with the wheels and the joints.

I doubt the tranny let go. Please recheck this before tearing the tranny out

 

[Tdijarhead]

You need to do more troubleshooting before you condemn the transmission. As agent-jwa said it’s unlikely the transmission. It could be the clutch itself. You had it in the air with both front wheels off the ground. Did you try and put it in gear and let the wheels turn? Do both axles turn. If so is that action translated to both tires?

With both fron tires off the ground start it in gear and let the clutch out, do the wheels turn?

 

[jokila]

I could see it make possible noise when you press on the clutch pedal because you are now putting pressure on the shifter fork to the throwout bearing, up to the pressure plate.

As been suggested, get the front wheels off ther ground and get the engine running with the trans in first gear. You should see the axle flanges turning, at least one of them. You may have a broken cv joint.

 

[PakProtector]

I could see it make possible noise when you press on the clutch pedal because you are now putting pressure on the shifter fork to the throwout bearing, up to the pressure plate.

As been suggested, get the front wheels off ther ground and get the engine running with the trans in first gear. You should see the axle flanges turning, at least one of them. You may have a broken cv joint.

IFF the clutch is not somehow stuck disengaged. Not quite sure how that happens but...

On testing the transmission, both wheels off the ground, the easiest thing should be to run one tire backwards, and one forwards. That leaves the ring gear stationary.

If the cutch is not engaging, putting it in gear should make a small difference( try first or reverse ), and repeat the one wheel forward/one wheel backward.

However it gets tested, the disconnect needs needs found.

Douglas

 

[xrdan]

I took the splash guard off and the axle couplings turn freely with no connection to each other. Idling in 1st gear both tires are stopped except occasionally it makes a grinding noise and they will rotate a little. I'll drain the oil and see what kind of pieces come out. When it happened it didn't make any kind of catastrophic noise, only some grinding so maybe it's fixable and the case is not trashed on the inside.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I took the splash guard off and the axle couplings turn freely with no connection to each other. Idling in 1st gear both tires are stopped except occasionally it makes a grinding noise and they will rotate a little. I'll drain the oil and see what kind of pieces come out. When it happened it didn't make any kind of catastrophic noise, only some grinding so maybe it's fixable and the case is not trashed on the inside.

I bought a car that was like that and it was the diff rivets that broke which cracked the case open on that one.

 

[xrdan]

Ok- drained the oil and it looked good. No pieces or sparkles. Viewed through the drain plug hole the ring gear is turning if you spin a tire, in gear or in neutral. Axle flanges feel like there's no connection between them. Any ideas about this?

 

[Brett San Diego]

For me, your descriptions still don't answer the question of whether your CV joints are intact. Do you have driveline integrity from your wheel to the transmission axle flange.

Lift one front wheel. Get underneath. Hold the axle flange on the transmission and see if the wheel will spin with the axle flange held stationary.

I had the cage on a CV joint fail, and it was exactly as you describe. I was releasing the clutch in second gear and suddenly there was a metallic breaking apart sound and then no more power to the front wheels after that. The failed side's axle flange was just spinning loose.

Brett

 

[xrdan]

Both flanges are solidly connected to the wheels. With the wheels blocked it is impossible to turn the flanges at all with the car in neutral. As mentioned before they will rotate independently of each other and the ring gear is turning as viewed through the drain hole. Today I blocked the ring gear with a screwdriver and it acted like it should have- spinning one wheel caused the other one to spin in the opposite direction. I'm trying to visualize what's going on in there. Also- how is the ring gear turning with the transmission in gear? It's like there is more than one problem. I know the thing has to come out at this point. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm up against.

 

[agent_jwa]

If you have it in gear the ring gear should not move. So that means it's not in gear. That could mean that a shift fork is broken/bent and not moving far enough to fully engage the shift sleeve. But it might be easier, are you sure of the shift linkage? Have you inspected the cable ends and maybe done a realignment of the shifter and cables. Maybe have someone shift it into gear and watch the mechanism from up top and then manually push on the linkage to see if it travels just a little further and properly locks into that gear.

 

[DS4465]

. . and when I let the clutch out it felt like it jumped out of gear. Tried all gears and nothing. . . shifted trans and it felt normal. This was with the engine running and foot off the clutch. No hint of engagement from the clutch.

Hmmm, interesting.
If you can select different/all gears without pushing the clutch pedal while the engine is running, that means your Clutch disk has officially left the building. There is no mechanical connection between the gearbox and the flywheel. Once the clutch is toast it doesn't make contact with the flywheel at all, so putting the trans in and out of gear without stepping on the clutch would feel the same as it does when the car isn't running.

Just my guess, hope there is no further damage.

 

[xrdan]

Just to follow up on this- I pulled the starter and was able to see the input shaft spin thru the gap in the clutch fingers with a HF flex scope when a tire was turned. I pulled the trans and luckily it was the clutch disk. The bore is smooth as glass. I didn't really see this happening too much when I was researching. The car is stock with 150k mi and was my commuter so it has never been abused.

I used a HF engine support (well worth it especially if you catch it on sale) and a cam type strap on the trans to let it down.

Going to get a clutch kit with a solid flywheel- the holes didn't line up exactly but close enough to get the bolts out so the thing was probably failing anyway.

 

[xrdan]

 

[PakProtector]

Holy Macaroni! Let me suggest at least a VR6 clutch. Light feel, and smooth engagement, and hold a wee bit more torque than stock. Do not neglect to put the moly paste on the input shaft when you put it back together.

Douglas

 

[jokila]

What brand of clutch disc is it?

 

[agent_jwa]

Yeah get the vr6 clutch with the solid flywheel. Just make sure you find and mark the TDC marking with a bigger punch mark and paint. Trust me, this will save so much trouble when you do the timing belt.

 

[shoebear]

A block and tackle works well for 1-person lowering and raising the transmission. They are available for about $30, if I recall correctly.

FYI, I ended up removing the transmission mount to get it into place.

 

[xrdan]

The clutch is original as far as I know. I got the car at 100k mi. It had just gotten a timing belt kit but the transmission side appeared to be original.

Good idea with the block and tackle. I did remove the mount but the only problem I had was hanging on the subframe. I might remove the flanges before I put it back in.

 

[shoebear]

Good idea with the block and tackle. I did remove the mount but the only problem I had was hanging on the subframe. I might remove the flanges before I put it back in.

That's what all the knotted loops are about in the last photo. Hoist a bit, get hung up. Tie off on top, go below, clear the hang up. Repeat.

 

[agent_jwa]

That's what all the knotted loops are about in the last photo. Hoist a bit, get hung up. Tie off on top, go below, clear the hang up. Repeat.

I built a gantry out of 2x4s and used 2 ratchet straps to lift mine. No lifting by hand like I used to do with my Hondas and Toyotas. These gearboxes are way heavier than other fwd boxes.

 

[fatmobile]

I used an engine hoist to help lift/hold the trany.
The legs of the lift do get in the way when trying to climb underneath.

 

[braddies]

It's also light enough to lay on your back and do a good push up and get it onto the dowel pins, then use one hand to hold it up and the other to get a couple bolts started..

 

[csstevej]

^^^^ I’ve done it three times this way , not too bad.

 

[fatmobile]

Right, I don't use the engine hoist to actually move it into place.
More to hold it up so it can't fall on me while I wrestle it into place.

 

[PakProtector]

It's also light enough to lay on your back and do a good push up and get it onto the dowel pins, then use one hand to hold it up and the other to get a couple bolts started..

Well, that tears it...y'all are much more beefier than I. Not that there was much doubt...LOL

Douglas