Clutch R&R Question

[Andyinchville1]

I have that internal debate every time also. But it's the axle nut! So I go through the ritual every time.

The guru that worked on my car said you can just torque to 185 Ft lbs .......

 

[Andyinchville1]

Never replaced a subframe bolt unless it looked suspect. If it doesn't drive straight when I'm done I put it up on the alignment rack and check/tweak it as necessary, but that's pretty rare. With a little common sense you can get them back where they were using the witness marks.

Hi

I know alot of VW bolts are Torque to yield and supposed to be 1 time use but when you say never replace a subframe bolt unless it looks suspect would you also reuse some of the other Torque to yield bolts or just the subframe bolts since they are so large and I'm not sure if the extra 90 degree twist after the torque value given really overworks the bolts ?

I had my subframe bolts out and the alignment went well but I was so paranoid about the 1x use "rule" I went and ordered a new set (my plan was to replace 1 bolt at a time so as not to mess up the alignment) ..... now you have me debating about swapping them out since it's cold out and the alignment is perfect (on the other hand I don't want my subframe shifting or bolts breaking) ....

Thanks

Andrew

 

[burpod]

Hi

I know alot of VW bolts are Torque to yield and supposed to be 1 time use but when you say never replace a subframe bolt unless it looks suspect would you also reuse some of the other Torque to yield bolts or just the subframe bolts since they are so large and I'm not sure if the extra 90 degree twist after the torque value given really overworks the bolts ?

I had my subframe bolts out and the alignment went well but I was so paranoid about the 1x use "rule" I went and ordered a new set (my plan was to replace 1 bolt at a time so as not to mess up the alignment) ..... now you have me debating about swapping them out since it's cold out and the alignment is perfect (on the other hand I don't want my subframe shifting or bolts breaking) ....

Thanks

Andrew

i can't think of any TTY bolts that are outside of the engine internals.... wayyyy too many bolts get thrown away needlessly.

 

[burpod]

you can also re-use axle nuts just fine. clean them out, put on some locktite. never use lube on them. the only real reason why the axle nuts are "1 time use" IMO is because they come with some "locktite" on them. i've re-used them many times. never had a problem

 

[Nuje]

I've re-used those axle nuts as well - always curious what others do for torque on those. The factory method seems just wrong even with new nuts: setting the car down and rolling it 180° of tire rotation after 200Nm minus 180° - which makes the nut at most "wrist-tight"....which the manual says to NEVER have on the axle bolts when there's weight on the wheels - and then tighten to 50Nm+60°.
(Ok - I'm sure those instructions in my paper manual mention 50Nm before the +60°; but just doing +60° after the 180° back from 200Nm....that's ridiculous.)

I typically just go with ~150Nm up in the air with a medium impact, then about as much as I can get out of my 2ft. ½" breaker bar without popping blood vessels.

 

[Zak99b5]

The guru that worked on my car said you can just torque to 185 Ft lbs .......

That’s what I was thinking, since the wheel bearing has long since been set in the knuckle, the hub set in the bearing, and they were not disturbed.

 

[Zak99b5]

I've re-used those axle nuts as well - always curious what others do for torque on those. The factory method seems just wrong even with new nuts: setting the car down and rolling it 180° of tire rotation after 200Nm minus 180° - which makes the nut at most "wrist-tight"....which the manual says to NEVER have on the axle bolts when there's weight on the wheels - and then tighten to 50Nm+60°.
(Ok - I'm sure those instructions in my paper manual mention 50Nm before the +60°; but just doing +60° after the 180° back from 200Nm....that's ridiculous.)

I typically just go with ~150Nm up in the air with a medium impact, then about as much as I can get out of my 2ft. ½" breaker bar without popping blood vessels.

I agree that the page you posted doesn’t sound right at all. And why does it say “alternate method?” What’s the other, mainstream method? I do not have a bentley for the A4 cars.

 

[jimbote]

I agree that the page you posted doesn’t sound right at all. And why does it say “alternate method?” What’s the other, mainstream method? I do not have a bentley for the A4 cars.

I've used 120 ft lb for years.

 

[jimbote]

I've re-used those axle nuts as well - always curious what others do for torque on those. The factory method seems just wrong even with new nuts: setting the car down and rolling it 180° of tire rotation after 200Nm minus 180° - which makes the nut at most "wrist-tight"....which the manual says to NEVER have on the axle bolts when there's weight on the wheels - and then tighten to 50Nm+60°.
(Ok - I'm sure those instructions in my paper manual mention 50Nm before the +60°; but just doing +60° after the 180° back from 200Nm....that's ridiculous.)

I typically just go with ~150Nm up in the air with a medium impact, then about as much as I can get out of my 2ft. ½" breaker bar without popping blood vessels.

Yeah that procedure is nuts. Basically end up with short 3/8 ratchet torque.

 

[PakProtector]

Not sure why this CV joint nut thing is so nuts. The inner bearings are a press-fit to the hub...and the axial bearing clearance is held together by the clamp load against the hard stops of the two inner race halves. This is what the German Torque Spec joke is made for... LOL

Douglas

 

[JETaah]

It's my impression that the first high torque figure is to draw all the sandwiched pieces together...take the air out of the assembly, so to speak.
You know how hard it can be to push the axle shaft out of the hub sometimes. I don't know if that is an intentional interference fit or what. Nonetheless, it has to be overcome again to make the assembly "airless". The loosening and second lower torque figure it make sure that it stays that way. I really doubt that you are stretching the axle shaft to any extent when torquing it. Don't think that you are stretching the nut, either. The Nylok ring or staking on the nut keeps it in place.
If you are using a bolt to secure that assembly like on B5.5 Passat axles or MKV Jetta ^ you are stretching the TTY bolt and that is part of the process to work-harden the metal into the spring-like fastener. The thing here is to not try to TTY it a second time. It only has the original stretch ability in it once and becomes deformed and loses the elasticity it once had. Tighten it until it stops turning with an appropriate length wrench.

Everybody has got their own way of doing things that they feel comfortable with. If you don't trust your instincts or, if you are uncertain that the last guy that wrenched treated the bolts right then get the new bolts.

 

[KrashDH]

The process is so everything seats correctly. You can torque till you're blue in the face, but if something is hung up or doesn't slide free and mate with it's interfaces, combined with the friction of rubber and concrete, it'll stay hung up no matter what torque.

The process of rolling the vehicle on its own weight under initial and released torque gives a chance for everything to equalize with enough torque to seat and sandwich. Theres a LOT of stack up tolerances going on in that part of the subsystem.

 

[Zak99b5]

Well, it’s back on the road. Took it for a test drive for like 6 miles in the city.

Pedal is lighter than it was with the stock clutch. It also starts to grab almost instantly as you let it up.

No untoward noises, no burning clutch smell. Calling this a success. Need to break it in, then I can log some runs with hard pulls for Guthrie.

 

[Zak99b5]

The process is so everything seats correctly. You can torque till you're blue in the face, but if something is hung up or doesn't slide free and mate with it's interfaces, combined with the friction of rubber and concrete, it'll stay hung up no matter what torque.

The process of rolling the vehicle on its own weight under initial and released torque gives a chance for everything to equalize with enough torque to seat and sandwich. Theres a LOT of stack up tolerances going on in that part of the subsystem.

I agree whole-heartedly, assuming you’ve r&r'd the wheel bearing. But I only pulled the axle out of the hub and reinserted it.

 

[KrashDH]

I agree whole-heartedly, assuming you’ve r&r'd the wheel bearing. But I only pulled the axle out of the hub and reinserted it.

Those splines can hang up on burrs, dirt or other things. So long as you're certain it's seated I don't think there's an issue if you can verify. I just tend to go by the book for these things

 

[Nuje]

And why does it say “alternate method?”

The "preferred" method, for lack of better term, was having the fancy-pants torque-angle wrench. The "alternate" method just gives you a way to figure out the +60° if you don't have a bespoke tool.
(Ahhh - and there's the 50Nm mention...omitted / forgotten in the "alternate" method posted above.)

 

[Zak99b5]

Not to continue this too much further, but if it's only 37 ft lbs plus 1/6 a turn, how can it require so much leverage to undo them that it's unsafe even on a lift??

 

[KrashDH]

Not to continue this too much further, but if it's only 37 ft lbs plus 1/6 a turn, how can it require so much leverage to undo them that it's unsafe even on a lift??

You'd be surprised how much torque you can achieve in 60 degrees from an already torqued state... Would be easy to test for someone that does this next. Follow FSM and set your torque wrench in increments on the final torque after it's rolled and see what value nets you that 60*

 

[wonneber]

All too often I grab the one for Aluminum...and when it ignores the steel bolt I get mad.

I have one or two clutches coming due, and I can't escape the idea that pulling it in from the top is going to be easiest( as in, slide it under, and pull it up). Pushing it up from the bottom is( and has been) a PITA. This way I figure I can maneuver it around the inner CV driver if it is just hanging.

Either way, do not neglect applying a wee bit of high-Moly-content glop( glop is thicker than goo ) to the input shaft splines so as to avoid fretting. And a wee bit on the contact surface of the TO bearing( that puppers wears where the fingers slide and I have a feeling is responsible for an otherwise OK bearing destroying itself when the groove gets deep enough).

Douglas

A few times if I couldn't get to an aluminum fastener or such I would use my small shop vac, empty it, then vacuum it using smaller tubes if needed.

 

[J_dude]

A few times if I couldn't get to an aluminum fastener or such I would use my small shop vac, empty it, then vacuum it using smaller tubes if needed.

A piece of grannys old nylons does the trick there too, just put it over the end of the hose or between two of the sections of pipe. Basically just creating a screen to catch the part before it can go into the bag.

 

[Zak99b5]

Granny panties aside, I thought I’d give a little update after driving it for 75 miles, virtually all city.

Engagement point seems to be a little higher now than when I first drove it. I’m sure some of that is getting used to a different clutch, but I also think using it a bunch has let it settle in.

I have experienced zero chatter so far. I do notice that when I’m at a light or otherwise stopped, trans in neutral and clutch engaged, I do hear a rotational sound that wasn’t really there before. It kinda just sounds like the hvac fan is on low. If I depress the clutch pedal, it goes away. Guessing it has to do with the smfw replacing the dual mass.

Obviously I’m still in the “drive it gently to normally” break-in phase, but so far the light pedal and ease of starting from a stop makes this a great choice for a daily. Let’s hope in ~400 miles I can giver her the beans and find out the clutch can handle all the torques.

 

[KrashDH]

Engagement point seems to be a little higher now than when I first drove it. I’m sure some of that is getting used to a different clutch, but I also think using it a bunch has let it settle in.

I've said it a couple times on this forum, but I'll note it again.

As clutch parts wear, the engagement point gets closer to the floor. When you get a brand new clutch that has a good pressure plate, friction pads are new, different brand etc. It's going to engage "higher" in the pedal stroke. This bite point isn't going to drastically change on a good clutch. You may notice a difference that it drops back down end of life. Biggest contributor is worn fingers and their tension on pressure plate. When this happens it doesn't "release" as much with the same stroke of the clutch pedal.

But it's not going to "break in" and be back where it previously was.

 

[Rrusse11]

" trans in neutral and clutch engaged, I do hear a rotational sound that wasn’t really there before. It kinda just sounds like the hvac fan is on low. If I depress the clutch pedal, it goes away. Guessing it has to do with the smfw replacing the dual mass. "

You're hearing the synchros in the gearbox. NP with the 02J with it's brass gears. SMF with later trans has steel
synchros, and they will fatigue and fail. The DMF dampens those vibrations.

 

[Zak99b5]

Follow-up question for the SMFW change:

I drove the car for basically 3 1/2 hours on the highway yesterday (quick stop to pick up seats). When I got home and had the car idling, trans in neutral, clutch engaged, I heard a much more pronounced synchro rattle than usual. Opened the car door, and could cleary hear the noise coming from the tranny.

Normally, I don't drive more than an hour at any one time with this car, and in the same idle/neutral/engaged scenario I only hear a pretty faint rotational sound, one I wouldn't classify as clatter. After driving to work today, sound was back to normal.

I'd like to assume that there was more noise yesterday just because the sustained high-speed driving got the tranny oil good & hot and thinned out. But I also worry that the extra noise yesterday was a symptom of the syncros rattling aroud too much, which could cause damage.

I know a lot of people here have a SMFW with an 02J, so let me know what you think. Am I being paranoid, or do I have to address this somehow?

 

[Vince Waldon]

Guessing it has to do with the smfw replacing the dual mass.

Yup!!!

 

[csstevej]

I too have smfw in two cars with the rattle at idle , most times I depress the clutch and release and the noise goes away….
Completely normal…… the one car has in excess of 310 ,xxx miles on that smfw…..was the first auto to manual swap I did……also taught 3 kids to drive a manual with that car…..

 

[shoebear]

As you know, I just installed a SMFW and South Bend Stage 2 Endurance clutch at the beginning of this year. I haven't noticed any unusual clatter from mine, including after driving from Colorado Springs to Arkansas & Missouri and back. However, I'll try to remember to check specifically next time I drive for at least an hour.

Some ideas/possibilities to check:

• Is the gear oil full?
• When you replaced the clutch, did you install a new release lever and pivot ball? I also installed a new transmission input shaft seal & sleeve and a new rear main seal.
• Did you grease everything? Using Red Line CV-2 hi-temp moly grease, I lightly greased anything that could slide against anything else: the splines inside of the friction disk coupling, the tips of the release springs, the face and inside of the release bearing, the input shaft seal sleeve, the input shaft splines, the pivot ball, the back of the release lever where the pivot ball rests, and the front of the release lever where the slave cylinder plunger contacts.

With car idling in neutral/clutch engaged, it's possible the rattle could be coming from the friction disk. If you put the car in gear or engage the clutch, does the rattle go away? My friction disk didn't have anything loose that could rattle, and it fit snugly on the input shaft. I would think rattle would be more likely to come from a DMFW, but I suppose it would depend on the individual components and their condition.

Which clutch did you install again? I'm too lazy to look up thread and find out.

 

[Zak99b5]

As you know, I just installed a SMFW and South Bend Stage 2 Endurance clutch at the beginning of this year. I haven't noticed any unusual clatter from mine, including after driving from Colorado Springs to Arkansas & Missouri and back. However, I'll try to remember to check specifically next time I drive for at least an hour.

Some ideas/possibilities to check:

• Is the gear oil full?
• When you replaced the clutch, did you install a new release lever and pivot ball? I also installed a new transmission input shaft seal & sleeve and a new rear main seal.
• Did you grease everything? Using Red Line CV-2 hi-temp moly grease, I lightly greased anything that could slide against anything else: the splines inside of the friction disk coupling, the tips of the release springs, the face and inside of the release bearing, the input shaft seal sleeve, the input shaft splines, the pivot ball, the back of the release lever where the pivot ball rests, and the front of the release lever where the slave cylinder plunger contacts.

With car idling in neutral/clutch engaged, it's possible the rattle could be coming from the friction disk. If you put the car in gear or engage the clutch, does the rattle go away? My friction disk didn't have anything loose that could rattle, and it fit snugly on the input shaft. I would think rattle would be more likely to come from a DMFW, but I suppose it would depend on the individual components and their condition.

Which clutch did you install again? I'm too lazy to look up thread and find out.

Gear oil must be full. Filled it with the front up on jack stands to get some extra in there, and I just was underneath there with the belly pan off for an oil change, and all was dry.

I did replace fork & pivot ball. No on the sleeve/input shaft seal. Yes on RMS.

I did put a light coating of grease on the fork at the slave and ball ends, sleeve, and splines. It was regular red wheel bearing grease tho.

VR6/G60 combo from Cascade German.

 

[dieseldonato]

As you know, I just installed a SMFW and South Bend Stage 2 Endurance clutch at the beginning of this year. I haven't noticed any unusual clatter from mine, including after driving from Colorado Springs to Arkansas & Missouri and back. However, I'll try to remember to check specifically next time I drive for at least an hour.

Some ideas/possibilities to check:

• Is the gear oil full?
• When you replaced the clutch, did you install a new release lever and pivot ball? I also installed a new transmission input shaft seal & sleeve and a new rear main seal.
• Did you grease everything? Using Red Line CV-2 hi-temp moly grease, I lightly greased anything that could slide against anything else: the splines inside of the friction disk coupling, the tips of the release springs, the face and inside of the release bearing, the input shaft seal sleeve, the input shaft splines, the pivot ball, the back of the release lever where the pivot ball rests, and the front of the release lever where the slave cylinder plunger contacts.

With car idling in neutral/clutch engaged, it's possible the rattle could be coming from the friction disk. If you put the car in gear or engage the clutch, does the rattle go away? My friction disk didn't have anything loose that could rattle, and it fit snugly on the input shaft. I would think rattle would be more likely to come from a DMFW, but I suppose it would depend on the individual components and their condition.

Which clutch did you install again? I'm too lazy to look up thread and find out.

I stuck the same clutch in a coupple of months ago as well. I should be right around 3k miles on it now. No decernable noises coming from the transmission in neutral at idle. I'm nearly convinced it's quieter then the dual mass that it replaced. That thing chattered like crazy at idle.

 

[shoebear]

VR6/G60 combo from Cascade German.

I think that would be this kit. Maybe the Sachs/Luk friction disk is noisy, while the South Bend one is not? @csstevej, what SMFW clutch do you have that rattles?