Clutch R&R Question

[Zak99b5]

I'll be changing out my clutch soon and it's been years since I've removed a MkIV tranny, so I've been looking on YouTube a bit.

Just came across a video where rather than removing axles from the flanges and removing the right flange, he just discos the outer CVs from the hubs, BJs from the LCAs, removes the subframe, and drops the tranny with axles attached.

Anyone try this method? Is it quicker? Seems it to me, and I'll be working in the driveway in winter so saving an hour or three would be nice.

 

[KrashDH]

I'll be changing out my clutch soon and it's been years since I've removed a MkIV tranny, so I've been looking on YouTube a bit.

Just came across a video where rather than removing axles from the flanges and removing the right flange, he just discos the outer CVs from the hubs, BJs from the LCAs, removes the subframe, and drops the tranny with axles attached.

Anyone try this method? Is it quicker? Seems it to me, and I'll be working in the driveway in winter so saving an hour or three would be nice.

Here's my 2c. Pull the axles AND the axle flange. There is/are seals behind those flanges that are likely worn and possibly could get damaged with all the rummaging around. I wish I would have pulled the flange (driver side) PRIOR to removing the tranny. We tried leaving it attached and although you can get it out with it attached, it was like playing Tetris. The 5 min it would have taken to remove it once the axle was out (trans still in place) would have saved us an hour of getting it hung up on stuff, same going back in. Pretty easy to install while it's in place.

I also replaced all the seals I could get at when the transmission was out. It's likely you're only going to have to do it this one time if you do it right, so I'd be more concerned with taking the extra time to do it easy AND right, no shortcuts. As well, if you drop the subframe, you gotta now take it to someone competent with these vehicles that can get a sub-alignment done the right way.

FWIW, did it in the driveway as well.

 

[shoebear]

Once you have the axles disconnected from the hubs, disconnecting them from the transmission is 5 minutes, if that. Reconnecting is up to 15 minutes because it's a pain to get the first screw started, and then you have to torque them all. So about 20 minutes saved, overall. Offset that against having an axle flopping around while you work on the tranny. Remember that you will need to be careful so that the CV joints aren't damaged and don't come apart.. I always clean major parts while they are out, and it would be awkward to do that with an axle attached.

Remove the subframe? When I changed the clutch in my Beetle, I saw no need to do that. I did have to disconnect the power steering pressure line to have room to get the trans out/in, but the subframe was not in the way. I did rotate the bottom of the engine forward with a ratchet strap.

I will probably be right there with you changing a clutch on my 2003 Jetta on the driveway over New Year's weekend. Still need to verify that my clutch slave cylinder is not the problem, but otherwise, I'll be out there in the cold.

 

[shoebear]

Here's my 2c. Pull the axles AND the axle flange. There is/are seals behind those flanges that are likely worn and possibly could get damaged with all the rummaging around. I wish I would have pulled the flange (driver side) PRIOR to removing the tranny.

Good points. I did not remove the flanges & change seals when I changed the NB clutch, but it's a good idea while it's out.

 

[Zak99b5]

I thought trying to move the trans around with the axles flopping might be an issue, but it doesn't need a lot of handling.

@KrashDH you mention the driver's flange getting in the way, but it seems to me it's the passenger side that gets in the way? I know removing them isn't difficult. Hadn't really thought about seals, though that makes sense.

If it were summer and I had the weather, daylight, & time (I'm a teacher), I'd definitely go whole hog on this.

 

[jimbote]

No need to pull any axles, disconnect the lower BJs, or remove flanges from the tranny. Turn the wheel full lock left unbolt the the axles from the tranny flange and tie the ds axle up and out of the way. Trans will float right between the disconnected axles. Dozens of clutch and trans jobs done this way and over a hundred auto to manual swaps performed with axles in situ and ball joints untouched.

 

[oilhammer]

Couple things (from a fat guy whose probably R&R'd more 02Js in A4 cars than a lot of people will ever even see):

I've never once, ever, taken a flange off of the transmission. You totally do not need to do that. You can even leave the unbolted axles hang there if you want.

You can R&R it with the subframe in place, the trick is (and this is a method right out of Volkswagen's own service lit) to use the spare tire jack to move the engine/trans forward, away from the subframe for more clearance.

HOWEVER, because I'm getting older, and beating the clock isn't as much of a concern as it once was, and I don't have the help I used to have, AND I often find the need to do some other things while in there, I've taken to dropping the subframe out anyway. Here's why, and here's how:

Clearance is why, it is a lot easier because you do not have to do the twist/roll/turn/flip method to R&R the box, you can just slide it right off and I can use the transmission jack then (so I can do it by myself, with no worries of anything falling). You also don't run the risk of stressing any 20+ year old hose or bit of plastic because you don't have to move the engine as much.

I leave the steering gear in the car... the four bolts that secure it to the subframe are easily accessed from below, and I can flip the power steering pressure line up and over the top of the transmission when I take it out, so it stays attached to the rack and the pump the whole time, and there is no fighting it at all. You can then do anything with the control arm compliance bushings, sway bar links and bushings, etc. easily while it is out and apart.

It only adds about 10 to 15 minutes of time to R&R the subframe, and it makes the actual transmission R&R probably at least 5 minutes less work, and again I can do it by myself. I used to wrestle them out by myself doing the twist/roll/turn/flip, but the time it takes my body to recover and the fact that my grip isn't what it used to be means I would have another tech help me... but those guys are all gone now, the only one that has the ability to help smells like a rancid ash tray and I don't want to have to stand that close to him.

 

[super1]

I remove axles from flanges & don’t remove subframe
To get Trans in & out I rotate it forward or CCW so the differential & flange are about 12 o’clock once you pass the frame rotated back into position, falls right into place
Did a bunch this way & no problems

 

[shoebear]

HOWEVER, because I'm getting older, and beating the clock isn't as much of a concern as it once was, and I don't have the help I used to have, AND I often find the need to do some other things while in there, I've taken to dropping the subframe out anyway...

If the ball joints and subframe are not disconnected, and the car was in good alignment to begin with, I see no need to get an alignment done after the job. But wouldn't dropping the subframe require an alignment from a shop that knows how to align the subframe?

Also, VW says to always replace the bolts that hold the subframe. But they are quite beefy, and I'm not sure this is needed. Do you replace them every time?

 

[oilhammer]

Never replaced a subframe bolt unless it looked suspect. If it doesn't drive straight when I'm done I put it up on the alignment rack and check/tweak it as necessary, but that's pretty rare. With a little common sense you can get them back where they were using the witness marks.

 

[oilhammer]

These cars are REALLY easy to work on you guys. No matter how you want to do it, it's going to be cake easy.

 

[P2B]

No need to pull any axles, disconnect the lower BJs, or remove flanges from the tranny. Turn the wheel full lock left unbolt the the axles from the tranny flange and tie the ds axle up and out of the way. Trans will float right between the disconnected axles. Dozens of clutch and trans jobs done this way and over a hundred auto to manual swaps performed with axles in situ and ball joints untouched.

I do it this way, but OH is right, it's easier with a helper who is limber and doesn't smell bad

 

[oilhammer]

I'm wondering how one does over a hundred auto to manual swaps without messing with the axles, when the axles themselves are different auto/manual. ???

 

[KrashDH]

I thought trying to move the trans around with the axles flopping might be an issue, but it doesn't need a lot of handling.

@KrashDH you mention the driver's flange getting in the way, but it seems to me it's the passenger side that gets in the way? I know removing them isn't difficult. Hadn't really thought about seals, though that makes sense.

If it were summer and I had the weather, daylight, & time (I'm a teacher), I'd definitely go whole hog on this.

I have to retract my statement that I pulled the axles. Looking over my documentation, I let them hang from the hub and tied them up out of the way. And yes, the flange was hanging up on the driver side. I remember this because we tried for a while to get it out. It did eventually come out in a certain position but it wasn't that easy. Honestly, the flange is held into the transmission with 1 bolt. It's 30 seconds to zip it out and transmission will easily fall out without having to Tetris it.

There's multiple ways of getting the job done. There is not one "ultimate" correct way. Do it how you feel comfortable. How I do a job to make it easier on myself is going to be different than how someone else does it. Most people don't have access to a lift and have to do it in our driveway, so "throwing it on the lift" isn't an option. The job becomes more difficult with little room, laying under your back trying to reach awkwardly in tight spaces, maneuvering a transmission to get it to drop down onto your chest, then onto the ground

 

[KrashDH]

I'm wondering how one does over a hundred auto to manual swaps without messing with the axles, when the axles themselves are different auto/manual. ???

There are very few people who do this for a living. So maybe that's the reason...

It's rare even for someone to have to drop their transmission more than once unless there are issues. If I had to do it again, I'd still look over my documentation before I did it, and note the things I would do differently. Use it or lose it. You do it so much that it's second nature to you.

There's a lot of people who have more technical prowess than 90% of the people that are "mechanics" by trade, because most of them are hacks and we as individuals can get the job done cheaper, and with more peace of mind knowing it was done correctly.

But we're not yarding parts in and out of cars on the daily. We do it when they need maintenance. So there won't be a lot of "muscle memory" repairs other than the things we do yearly. I mean, it makes sense right?

 

[jimbote]

I'm wondering how one does over a hundred auto to manual swaps without messing with the axles, when the axles themselves are different auto/manual. ???

Well, the first few dozen swaps i retained the auto axles by swapping the 100mm trans flanges for 108 flanges from vr and 1.8 cars. Lots of those floating around back then from folks doing 1.8t/VR swaps into mk1/2/3 cars. I was on vortex trading my 100s for 108s until vortex shut me down. Apparently i was pissng off contributing vendors by cutting into their sales. When i finally switched to using 100s i would drop the trans with 108s still in place and switch the axles out when the trans was out of the way. Still pulling the trans up and in with axles fully installed in the knuckles and ball joints untouched.

 

[oilhammer]

Oh I'm just in awe of the skills one has to magically transform the automatic axles into manual axles. That's a skill set I don't have, don't think I'll ever have, LOL.

But yeah, swapping the flanges explains it... although its those darn tripod joints that seem to have the vibration fails that are hard to fix, where the Rzeppa style joints are easier to fix.

 

[P2B]

Honestly, the flange is held into the transmission with 1 bolt. It's 30 seconds to zip it out and transmission will easily fall out without having to Tetris it.

The tranny fluid falls out too, and the seal might not survive the re & re.

 

[KrashDH]

The tranny fluid falls out too, and the seal might not survive the re & re.

I drained all my fluid prior to removal. I knew doing this job it was time for new fluid anyway, and since I don't remove the transmission much, while I had it out and easy to work on, it was getting all new seals anyway. If I did it again, I'd still remove that DS flange and just re install a new seal.

 

[oilhammer]

All this talk about R&Ring a simple 02J.... this is what I'm working on now:

 

[Zak99b5]

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

I know pulling the 02j isn't that hard (I did it on my son's VR Jetta to r&r the timing chains), but I'm looking for the quickest way to do it over the Christmas break in the driveway in winter. Working on a cold car with colder wrenches laying on cold pavement has lost its appeal, so I want to do the least amount of disassembly while not having to wrestle and fight with something because of skipping something.

Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to skip pulling the left axle out and tie it (and the right too of course) up and away, remove the right flange, and go at it that way.

 

[oilhammer]

Man I feel for ya. I've had to work under similar conditions and found one of those little easy-up tents helpful to at least keep the wind off.

 

[KrashDH]

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

I know pulling the 02j isn't that hard (I did it on my son's VR Jetta to r&r the timing chains), but I'm looking for the quickest way to do it over the Christmas break in the driveway in winter. Working on a cold car with colder wrenches laying on cold pavement has lost its appeal, so I want to do the least amount of disassembly while not having to wrestle and fight with something because of skipping something.

Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to skip pulling the left axle out and tie it (and the right too of course) up and away, remove the right flange, and go at it that way.

A couple years back, I had a leak between my timing gear housing and the block in my Cummins. In order to replace the $20 gasket, you have to cut out the radiator support so you can pull the cam out (among, many, many other things to get to the point where you can actually pull the cam out since the cam gear doesn't just "come off"

It was March in WA, and I thought it would be fine, bought one of those Harbor Freight 20 ft portable covers. Well, this was definitely a very involved project that spanned across multiple days. A few of those days it decided to snow, which it usually doesn't do here down low. It was snowing sideways and the tent did not have side curtains. Was pretty miserable:

The reason you have to notch out the rad support is because the idiot engineers designed the support too long...so even though it's bolted in there, when they sandwich the frame on either side during assembly, the support bottoms out on either the right or left frame before you can remove it!

Notched out and ready to remove

Thankfully it wasn't snowing that day, but a few other of the days couldn't feel my fingers and the entire top side of the engine was apart (since you gotta keep the tappets up from falling down into the oil pan when you take the cam out!)

If I can ever find a house and mortgage rates come down, it has to have a shop, that's a requirement for me at this point

 

[oilhammer]

Can you just lift the cab off... or at least up some? Don't do much of that type of thing anymore because there are better equipped guys out there to do it, and they'd know more of what they are looking at.

The Ford and GM cabs lift off pretty easily, I'd imagine the Ram is not much different. MCD Diesel gets all that stuff from us. I sometimes wish we messed with it more, just because I'd like to see it.

The later Astro/Safari vans had you cut out the body support and GM sold a bolt-in replacement whenever you had to remove the engine. Because they were lifted straight up from underneath during assembly. Which you could disassemble the same way if you wanted to drop all the transmission, steering, suspension, etc. along with the subframe. Which is how lots of stuff is anyway.

 

[KrashDH]

GM and Ford you have to lift the cab up to do any of the engine work (for the most part, everything is so crammed in there with the V8's)...in this case that wouldn't do anything. You can do all the engine work without lifting the cab in the Dodge, which is nice (lots of room with the I6, one of my motivators when purchasing the truck was to have room in the engine compartment to work, and the mighty "C" for an engine), but the rear most cylinder is kind of a pain for things like injectors or valve lash since it's right up under the cowling.

But for this repair, you can't get enough clearance for the cam gear to come up and over that rad support without a lot of extra work. That gear is pretty big (not shown in any of the photos...I did an entire DIY writeup for this procedure and just stole a couple photos from my thread over there for the post above). I'd have to imagine you'd have to lift the cab 6" inches, as well as disconnect the transmission, then be able to hoist the engine that high. Then again, you'd likely not want to do that because you have to be able to work on the top end in conjunction since you need to hold all of the lifters in place:

Since that rad support isn't loaded heavy at all, cutting out the small area and pulling it out the front is the way to do it, or at least the most efficient. Makes it cake to get in there again if you ever have to pull it for room to work.

Anyway, sorry for clouding the thread with truck stuff...just wanted to show my tent repair haha.
Back to clutches

 

[P2B]

Working on a cold car with colder wrenches laying on cold pavement has lost its appeal

Like it ever had appeal

My tent is under a tree - the one I chain the come-along onto to pull the engine forward so the flanges clear the subframe

 

[Nuje]

My tent is under a tree - the one I chain the come-along onto to pull the engine forward so the flanges clear the subframe

Segués the wayward "winter working" conversation back to "transmission R&R" in one fell swoop - what a pro!!

 

[ts888]

All this talk about R&Ring a simple 02J.... this is what I'm working on now:

View attachment 134987

We finally bought a hydraulic lift table with all the mounts and supports for those jobs. It makes it easy to get the lump out, and you can move it around or lift it up to make it easier to work on.

 

[jimbote]

I have to retract my statement that I pulled the axles. Looking over my documentation, I let them hang from the hub and tied them up out of the way. And yes, the flange was hanging up on the driver side. I remember this because we tried for a while to get it out. It did eventually come out in a certain position but it wasn't that easy. Honestly, the flange is held into the transmission with 1 bolt. It's 30 seconds to zip it out and transmission will easily fall out without having to Tetris it.

There's multiple ways of getting the job done. There is not one "ultimate" correct way. Do it how you feel comfortable. How I do a job to make it easier on myself is going to be different than how someone else does it. Most people don't have access to a lift and have to do it in our driveway, so "throwing it on the lift" isn't an option. The job becomes more difficult with little room, laying under your back trying to reach awkwardly in tight spaces, maneuvering a transmission to get it to drop down onto your chest, then onto the ground

In my case I was striving for efficiency. Time was a concern and many times the customer was in the shop chatting me up. I stopped using a lift after the the first five or six swaps because i was hired to do an on site swap in Fort Wayne and found the job on the floor went MUCH faster.

 

[Zak99b5]

Lying on your back, you can at least use the ground to "press" against with your body as you wrench off tight bolts. Plus I'd rather be laying under the trans and pull it from the motor onto my chest just a few inches below rather than reaching up above my shoulders. So it does have some advantages.

But the constant up & down is a chore now that I'm in my mid 50s.