Clutch quit on me

[riofrio]

Hi folks,

I was driving through stop and go traffic and all of a sudden the shifter did not want to go into gear anymore. Almost as if pressing on the clutch didn't do a thing. The only way I can get it into gear is with the engine off. In fact, this is how I managed to roll the car out of traffic: by starting it in 1st gear, and it would roll forward even with the clutch pedal fully pressed. With the engine running and in 1st, I can't get it out of gear either. The clutch is not slipping, I just can't get it to disengage fully, it seems.
as far as I know this is the original clutch (and associated components) in this car so at 330k mi it had a pretty good run.
What should I be looking to replace to restore it?? Any chance these symptoms could be related to a transmission problem rather than clutch? (i.e., something with the synchros). Any chance it could be something simple, like the clutch slave cylinder? Any input would be much appreciated; I plan on tackling this myself over the next few weeks.

 

[TonyJetta]

Sounds like the clutch master or slave.

Tony

 

[Yblocker]

I agree with Tony that the slave or master may be it. Did the pedal feel different suddenly? I guess the part that worries me a little is that you couldn't pull it out of gear while moving in first... in theory you should be able to upshift and even downshift without the use of the clutch if you know how. If there was a leaky seal in the master or slave, the pedal would not feel normal (stays on the floor, or feels soft etc.). If you do find the master or slave is bad, do yourself a favor and replace both.

The only other thing that would cause this is a bad pilot bushing or bearing. If the bearing is locked on to the input shaft, then the clutch would feel normal at the pedal, and in fact may be releasing, but the engine and trans input shaft could still be connected. This is a rare one...it would involve a full on clutch job to fix.

 

[jollyGreenGiant]

Clutch disk spring failed and sent debris between the contact surfaces. My guess is the hydraulics are fine.

 

[G60ING]

Sounds like a clutch unless the pedal feel changed. If the pedal feel did change then it is probably the master or the slave cylinders. Check the brake fluid level as it will typically be low when the slave goes out.

If the clutch I recommend you just order a 1996 passat VR6 clutch kit and send your flywheel to a machine shop to have it resurfaced. The clutch kit is about $200 and resurfacing is about $30-$75. You will also need to get flywheel bolts, pressure plate bolts and it would make sense to also order a rear main seal.

 

[starrd]

Clutch disk spring failed and sent debris between the contact surfaces. My guess is the hydraulics are fine.

I had this exact issue - sping in the disc let loose and no more clutch. Happened all of a sudden, no warning. I replaced the clutch with a VR6 one and no more issues.

 

[riofrio]

Thanks, guys. The clutch pedal feel did not seem to change; that said, it was always pretty soft anyways. The fluid level is right in between E and F.

I'm thinking for good measure I'll bleed the system first so that I can rule the master and slave cyls out. Anything else that can help me rule this out conclusively before I tackle on the clutch replacement job?

I was looking at this engine support from HF to do this job: http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-engine-support-bar-96524.html. This would also come in handy for TB work on my A4. Anybody had any experience with this unit?

Oh also, is resurfacing the flywheel something I can tackle myself on our CNC mill at work? I'm somewhat proficient on it but would not mind paying someone else if it's super critical.

 

[G60ING]

be careful bleeding the clutch if they haven't been bled much during the 300k miles can cause them to fail soon after being bled. Right now the fluid is contains lots of crud and whatnot. soon after bleeding the fluid will begin to leak past the seals of either the master or slave and a few months later the other cylinder will fail.

 

[riofrio]

Clutch disk spring failed and sent debris between the contact surfaces. My guess is the hydraulics are fine.

Wouldn't this create a loud squealing noise of some sort? I'm hearing nothing unusual when I press on the pedal.

be careful bleeding the clutch if they haven't been bled much during the 300k miles can cause them to fail soon after being bled. Right now the fluid is contains lots of crud and whatnot. soon after bleeding the fluid will begin to leak past the seals of either the master or slave and a few months later the other cylinder will fail.

Thanks for the tip. I took my chances and bled it anyway... no bubbles.

Could I just remove the slave cyl from the transmission and manually feel for firm displacement against light movement of the clutch pedal? Just to make sure the hydraulic actuation is indeed fine before tearing into the transmission.

 

[Yblocker]

The broken disc spring scenario may or may not have noise associated with it. Not sure about the DIY flywheel resurface. If you do, take just enough off to eliminate the heat checking and glaze. Any big cracks and you'll be looking for a replacement. You won't learn anything by feeling the slave action manually. You would be better off visually observing the action with it installed if you can. If the pedal feels right and the slave gets a full stroke, I think you may be facing that clutch job

 

[riofrio]

You would be better off visually observing the action with it installed if you can.

Is there a window into the transmission through which I can verify this??

 

[dieseljunkie]

Is there a window into the transmission through which I can verify this??

Remove the slave cyl, that's your window. A mirror or better yet a borescope will help to see inside.

 

[jollyGreenGiant]

That coil that breaks off get's flung with the centrifugal force and gets jammed between the disk and flywheel and when you push in the hydraulics it's not enough movement to release the jammed spring, thus your only option is to take the thing apart and replace the clutch.

 

[GeWilli]

i was surprised how worn the springs were on mine when I replaced the clutch, close to falling out.

My Flywheel looked fine though. Very little glazing despite plenty of slippage pre-replacement, i did lightly clean it with some alcohol and a green scrubby thing.

 

[riofrio]

That coil that breaks off get's flung with the centrifugal force and gets jammed between the disk and flywheel and when you push in the hydraulics it's not enough movement to release the jammed spring, thus your only option is to take the thing apart and replace the clutch.

Good to know. I'll have the whole thing out this weekend hopefully and share some pictures.

My Flywheel looked fine though. Very little glazing despite plenty of slippage pre-replacement, i did lightly clean it with some alcohol and a green scrubby thing.

So you didn't even remove the flywheel? I'm trying to decide whether to fess up the cash for a FW counter-holding tool.

 

[GeWilli]

yeah i didn't remove it.

if it was going to be a daily driver and there was no rust and and and and I probably should have removed it and replaced the rear main seal.

I've got a tiny bit of seepage from there, not much, not enough to motivate me to do it.

After the fire and the loss of the Golf, I just want to make the Passat work with the least amount of money time and energy. With the added risk of having an issue with the seal being worse after replacement than before? I left it alone.

no issues.

well it sure stunk (the new clutch - I did not cheap out on that for some reason) for a few days of driving. But has been holding strong with no issues since.

If you have glazing or really bad discoloration from excessive heat resurfacing it is probably a good idea, but generally the flywheel on these old beasts aren't too bad (if you catch it before you start grinding metal on metal).

 

[G60ING]

The key when resurfacing is to get the step back to a new spec. Typically you can measure it on the very outer edges of the surface near the ring gear.

 

[riofrio]

Thanks for the advice!

How specific are the flywheel counterholding tool and the clutch centering tool? Do I really need both of these to do the job?

 

[GeWilli]

i'd get or borrow the centering tool... makes it much easier... there are a few deep well sockets that work and I played around with it for a bit, you CAN make it work w/o one. but they really do a much better job and make what is a total royal pain in the ass job just a bit nicer (the pain in the ass part on the passat is getting the transmission off and back on).

 

[riofrio]

Where are these tools available?

I plan to remove the driver's axle completely to make more room for dropping the transmission. I bought the engine support mount from harbor freight and also a manual winch that I will attach to the support mount and use that to lower it, instead of a transmission jack. I helped someone doing it that way with an A4 once and worked pretty well.

Hopefully I will have the time to get it out this weekend!

 

[GeWilli]

you can get the centering tool from the clutch supplier usually (aka IDparts).

You HAVE to remove the driver's side driveshaft completely. No question.

Also remove that driver's side motor mount bracket from the transmission (three bolts hold it to the tranny) - some what of a pain to get to those three but don't try and take the tranny out with it attached (it will get stuck).

If you feel up to it pulling the passenger side driveshaft just makes it a lot easier to work around there, but you almost have to take the ball joint out to get it back in place with the transmission in there (driver's side comes right out no problem).

To remove it I was below it on my back and my brother was above reaching down, we found it to be much easier to twist/pull position it that way.

this is much bigger pain in the ass on the Passat than the A4 or even the A3 (just in case you were wondering).

 

[riofrio]

you can get the centering tool from the clutch supplier usually (aka IDparts).
this is much bigger pain in the ass on the Passat than the A4 or even the A3 (just in case you were wondering).

Heavy frustration is part of the plan .
Thanks for all the help.

 

[riofrio]

Ok, strange update...

A week after bleeding the system, I'm about to bring the car into the garage to pull the transmission, so I start it up, and now it works fine . Drove it around the block, goes into the gears without any problem, like it always did before.

So now I'm thinking the problem was/is in the hydraulic system.... but how could it have fixed itself?? Or perhaps better put, how could it now be hiding? I tested it last week immediately after bleeding it and it still would not go into gear. Maybe the seals in the master cylinder are on their way out, and today for some odd reason they are sealing properly?

Very confused. Obviously I don't want to remove the transmission if I don't have to....

 

[Abacus]

You HAVE to remove the driver's side driveshaft completely. No question.

No, you don't. But, it will save you about 2 hours of swearing, prying, and fighting if you do.

Trust me on this.

I wound up removing the passenger's side flange once it was out and it was back in and bolted down in under 5 minutes.

 

[GeWilli]

I suppose you don't but with it in place it is a massive pain and since it is a single 30(ish)mm nut holding it in place why leave it there?

Oh and yeah - i wound up removing the passenger side flange as well. Made it really nice.

Although getting the flange back in place with the tranny bolted up and the passenger side drive shaft still in was a bit of a pain in the ass.

 

[jsrmonster]

It sounds like your spline on the shifter input lever is stripped. Seen this before. You need to get a new one, or bone yard 5spd from 98-99 NB/Jetta/Golf 5spd, gas or diesel.

Jeff

 

[Abacus]

I suppose you don't but with it in place it is a massive pain and since it is a single 30(ish)mm nut holding it in place why leave it there?

.

Because it's your (my) first time removing it and you (I) didn't follow ALL the instructions.

Lesson learned though. Isn't that how we learn...trial and error? This would come under the 'error' part...but hey, I sure won't forget it for next time.

 

[jollyGreenGiant]

If the spring-coil-debris that is jammed between the disk and flywheel exists at around 12:00 when the engine is stopped and you press the clutch in it may fall back into the "center pocket", will it fling back up and re-jam? Yes, it will.

 

[riofrio]

If the spring-coil-debris that is jammed between the disk and flywheel exists at around 12:00 when the engine is stopped and you press the clutch in it may fall back into the "center pocket", will it fling back up and re-jam? Yes, it will.

That makes sense. I tried to drive it again last night and problem was back. I'll remove the transmission tonight and post my findings.

 

[riofrio]

Because it's your (my) first time removing it and you (I) didn't follow ALL the instructions.

Lesson learned though. Isn't that how we learn...trial and error? This would come under the 'error' part...but hey, I sure won't forget it for next time.

And I'm trying to learn from all your collective mistakes ahead of time . But of course, I'm bound to make several of my own... and somehow those are the ones from which one really learns!