Clutch problems

[pkhoury]

Earlier today, while trying to shift into 5th, the car wouldn't let me get into 5th and heard some grinding (like synchros), so I backed off. Then found, I couldn't get into ANY gears. I coasted to a stop where it was safe. Before that, the clutch pedal felt like it got stuck on something (as if a rock were behind it or something). Now, the clutch pedal hesitates a fair bit before it goes down to the floor. I can't get the car out of 5th, either (on a tow dolly).

If I start the car with the clutch pressed to the floor, it naturally stalls and doesn't even turn over, because it's acting as if the clutch is fully engaged. When I did get it to start (while parked to the side of the road), there was a light chattering. Pressing the clutch pedal slightly made it silent. Trying to press it further started making grinding noises. I was initially planning to change fluids in my tractor today, but tackle both that and the car. That said, should I either try to bleed the slave cylinder, or remove it entirely first, so I can at least get back to neutral to get the car off the tow dolly?

Thankfully, I have a spare clutch/flywheel/pressure plate here, but I wasn't planning on doing a clutch job in triple digit heat (or 90 degrees around 11pm). Any thoughts?

 

[P2B]

Sounds like the throwout bearing disintegrated. I doubt bleeding or pulling the slave will help.

 

[Vince Waldon]

Not sure why you can't get it out of 5th with the engine stopped, though. If it was just clutch-related one should be able to run the gears with the engine off.

Not much you're going to be able to do topside, either way, unfortunately.

 

[pkhoury]

Sounds like the throwout bearing disintegrated. I doubt bleeding or pulling the slave will help.

Lovely. If this ends up being the case, with the clutch/flywheel looking good, any reason to change that stuff? I've done ballpins/springs/fork/throwout, so I'm not happy about having to pull the transmission, but it is what it is.

 

[pkhoury]

Not sure why you can't get it out of 5th with the engine stopped, though. If it was just clutch-related one should be able to run the gears with the engine off.

Not much you're going to be able to do topside, either way, unfortunately.

I have noticed today that getting into first several times was A LOT harder, even with the clutch down to the floor. Same for 5th gear. Having it stuck in gear is a problem, since I need to get it off the tow dolly somehow.

 

[Seatman]

I'm pretty sure the box will have to come off no matter what, could be the pressure plate has gone too. No way to know really without pulling it.

Only other thing would be to investigate with a camera first, one of those bendy ones. My brain has given up trying to remember what they're called lol

 

[Vince Waldon]

No matter what you see with a camera you'll still have to pull 'er apart to fix 'er though.

If you can get to them, disconnecting both axles from the transmission is one way to free the wheels so that you can get it off the carrier, and it's a step that likely needs to be done anyways.

 

[PakProtector]

That is one heck of a set of symptoms. USUALLY, a stuck-engaged clutch will still let you shift the gearbox into neutral. It could be you can grab the crank with a 19mm and twist it forwards until it starts trying to pull the car forward, then shove the car forward whilst jiggling the gearshift( you're taking all the slack out in one direction, then using the car to shove things up against the 'other side' of the slack).

Douglas

 

[Vince Waldon]

If you can get to them, disconnecting both axles from the transmission is one way to free the wheels <snip>

Another option is to pull the glow plugs, so that the engine can free-wheel in gear.

Given that it's 5th gear internal friction may still be too much, however. You could try short bursts with the starter to see if it will walk in 5th.

 

[pkhoury]

I'm pretty sure the box will have to come off no matter what, could be the pressure plate has gone too. No way to know really without pulling it.

Only other thing would be to investigate with a camera first, one of those bendy ones. My brain has given up trying to remember what they're called lol

I know what you're talking about. I had one of those cameras, but no clue where the hell it is.

I did finally get the car out of gear. Apparently helped once I took the wheel tie downs off and it shifted back to neutral. My girlfriend, her son and I moved the car onto the driveway, so at this point, I think it's inevitable I'll be pulling the transmission. I was planning on doing that to DSOL (my other/working 2002 Golf) once I ordered a taller 5th and had the tranny put back together, but obviously need to fix this problem first. Never thought I'd be pulling a transmission twice this year.

As for the clutch - if it looks okay, and the pressure plate looks okay, can I keep both as-is? I'm not changing the clutch on DSOL, because I already did that about 8K miles ago (but didn't have an LSD fitted on a 02J transmission when I bought that car), so I don't plan on changing anything. That was an auto conversion, so it got all the new goodies (ball pin, spring, throwout, etc). I do have a spare clutch kit (@BleachedBora 's last dual diaphragm kit), but there's no TDC mark on the flywheel IIRC, and that will bug the $hit out of me when I have to change the TB in a couple of months.

That brings me to yet another question - are SMF's mostly interchangeable, except for the weight, of course? And with the dual diaphragm, a DC Stage 2 I used in the past, SouthBend, etc - are the pressure plates interchangeable, or all different? Or is it a combination of the friction plate and pressure plate that determine how much torque it'll hold?

 

[wonneber]

I wonder if the shifter bushings are bad not allowing the shifter to work.
Maybe have someone work the shifter and look for anything loose in the cables above the trans.
Don't remember how much is involved pulling the console and shifter out if need be.
Once the cables are off the trans you could move the arm to see if the gears engauge.

 

[J_dude]

I do have a spare clutch kit (@BleachedBora 's last dual diaphragm kit), but there's no TDC mark on the flywheel IIRC, and that will bug the $hit out of me when I have to change the TB in a couple of months.

I have no idea, but is there no way to line the old and new flywheels up and transfer the TDC mark over? Like grab a chisel and mark the new one?

 

[pkhoury]

I have no idea, but is there no way to line the old and new flywheels up and transfer the TDC mark over? Like grab a chisel and mark the new one?

I actually tried doing that, and what a f***ing pain in the ass it was trying to do that, along with a sharpie mark.

 

[pkhoury]

I wonder if the shifter bushings are bad not allowing the shifter to work.
Maybe have someone work the shifter and look for anything loose in the cables above the trans.
Don't remember how much is involved pulling the console and shifter out if need be.
Once the cables are off the trans you could move the arm to see if the gears engauge.

No, the clutch pedal feels pretty off. Like when you get down about 70-80% of the way to the floor, there's A LOT of hesitation.

I actually replaced ALL the shifter bushings/etc when I rebuilt this car last year. What I do need to do is tighten up my e-brake a little bit more, while I'm at it, though.

Pulling the shifter out - you gotta pull the downpipe off, then remove the heat shield. It's not hard, but it is time consuming. 2 - 13mm hold on the downpipe bracket that you gotta remove, 2 13mm on top of the shifter, and I think another 2 13mm on bottom? And then a pick or something to take off those star-shaped things (can't remember the right terminology) that hold on the heat shield.

 

[John Wesley Hardin]

I wonder if the shifter bushings are bad not allowing the shifter to work.
Maybe have someone work the shifter and look for anything loose in the cables above the trans.
Don't remember how much is involved pulling the console and shifter out if need be.
Once the cables are off the trans you could move the arm to see if the gears engauge.

Nylon shifter bushings are a problem. Which I replaced on mine. Also when my clutch went out the fork actually broke not the clutch itself.

 

[J_dude]

I actually tried doing that, and what a f***ing pain in the ass it was trying to do that, along with a sharpie mark.

Ah ok

 

[John Wesley Hardin]

I'm pretty sure the box will have to come off no matter what, could be the pressure plate has gone too. No way to know really without pulling it.

Only other thing would be to investigate with a camera first, one of those bendy ones. My brain has given up trying to remember what they're called lol

They are called an Endoscope. You know you can get those on Amazon for 29.00 bucks. I just ordered one. My boneheaded son dropped the sending unit into the 50 gal. gas tank on my boat and theres no way to find it , without an Endoscope. Also I have some plumbing issues at the house Im gonna use it for . These are handy little optics as they have a multitude of uses for cars boats, pipes whatever.

 

[jmodge]

Sounds like you’re screwed, give the car away and avoid future headaches. Texas body? If you provide the tow vehicle and trailer/dolly I will come down there and relieve you of that damn thing

 

[P2B]

Also I have some plumbing issues at the house Im gonna use it for . These are handy little optics as they have a multitude of uses for cars boats, pipes whatever.

They are great for the price, but don't bother sticking it in a drainpipe - you won't see shyte, because that's what will cover the camera before you get a foot in.

 

[pkhoury]

Sounds like you’re screwed, give the car away and avoid future headaches. Texas body? If you provide the tow vehicle and trailer/dolly I will come down there and relieve you of that damn thing

Haha, screw you too lol. I'm already getting started pulling the transmission.

On a serious note - is it bad to see some red dust, presumably from the clutch? Of course, I'm just speculating; I won't know how it looks until I pull the transmission off, hopefully in a day or two.

 

[jmodge]

I assume the red dust is from condensation that has formed from the hot and cold cycle then rusted. Then it gets powdered and dispersed by centrifugal force. My guess anyway.
On a serious note, Go ahead and pull the trans for me. I’ll come pick it up with my own rig.

 

[pkhoury]

It's a long way from Michigan to Texas lol.
I'll probably put the car on jacks here shortly and start removing all the bottom end crap, weather permitting. It's not supposed to get over 95 today, but on triple digit days, it's not unusual for me to go through half a dozen t-shirts because they end up soaking wet.

 

[jmodge]

57 degrees with 110% humidity here. Don’t lose any of my parts

 

[pkhoury]

57 degrees with 110% humidity here. Don’t lose any of my parts

I'll take that over 92 degrees and 48% humidity, which is what it is here right now.

 

[pkhoury]

Well, I finally got that motherf****r out. Of course, the hardest part of this job, IMO, is pulling the transmission out when you realize you should've taken at least one of the damn flanges off.

Good thing I bought a new clutch fork, because mine is pretty f**ked. I might take the clutch off later tonight. Both to inspect it, and because it appears I need to also change my rear main seal. Oh, lucky me...

 

[KrashDH]

when you realize you should've taken at least one of the damn flanges off

Lol I learned the hard way about this as well. Woulda been cake if I wasn't fighting that flange and trying to play transmission Tetris!

 

[pkhoury]

Lol I learned the hard way about this as well. Woulda been cake if I wasn't fighting that flange and trying to play transmission Tetris!

Hahaha yeah!

At least I'll be able to tackle the leaking rear main while I'm at it. It only lasted about 65K-ish, surprisingly. Since I gotta do that, I have no excuse not to pull the flywheel, pressure plate and friction plate now. That said, hopefully the friction plate is at least salvageable, since that clutch fork looks like $hit.

 

[Brett San Diego]

What am I missing? I'm not sure I see the failure in the pics. I see the rubbing marks on the clutch fork. What has caused that? The throwout bearing looks intact.

Brett

 

[zslnk]

The groove in the throw-out bearing is failure. It can't push the clutch fingers in.

 

[P2B]

Of course, the hardest part of this job, IMO, is pulling the transmission out when you realize you should've taken at least one of the damn flanges off.

Flanges don't need to come off, just need to pull the engine forward far enough to clear the subframe. I use a come-along.