Clutch options/choices for BHW/R150

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
The back of my bhw blocks is now the bolt pattern of a v6 4 runner. The 3.0 and 3.4 v6 both share the same crank pattern, fit the same r150 bellhousings. The 3.4 starter will give a little more oomph.

The 3.4 also gives i believe a 10mm bigger clutch.


I am not sure a stock aisin clutch will hold the 300 ft lbs of torque the stage 2 tuned bhw puts out.

I'm considering an exedy or McCloud racing stage one clutch. Both rated to hold at or over 300 ft lbs of torque at the wheels...not too heavy of a pedal and a sprung organic clutch.

What have you guys used?
 

PradoTDI

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
I used the the Pro Clutch Kit from LCEngineering, rated for 300hp and 300ft-lb for my ALH/LandCruiser swap, but in looking it up again (I bought mine about 3 years ago) I noticed that the product page on their website says it isn't compatible with TDI swaps. Interestingly, that warning wasn't there when I purchased originally, and may explain some of the clutch issues I have been experiencing after driving about 10k km on the swap. So, it looks like I may be in the market for another clutch and am curious to hear some others chime in!
 

PickleRick

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Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I think I'm going to end up with the exedy. The clutch doesn't know what motor so I don't see how there could be an issue there. There are plenty of guys with super charged 3.4 motors making 300 plus ft lbs of torque. I never had issues with a properly matched exedy years ago with my turbo Honda B series.

What issues are you having with your clutch?

I have the same motor, same tune in my 5 speed converted passat.

I started with a a clutch master fx300 clutch that was far from cheap. Started slipping in less than a year of daily driving. The pressure plate had failed, lost all clamping force. The clutch flywheel set up was some 1000 bucks or more. I was far from thrilled. They had me ship it to them to see about warranty then informed me weeks after having it warranty was 90 days. Sadly we discussed purchase date in email/phone calls several times before I removed the assembly to ship it to them so they wasted both my time and shipping costs. I will not deal with them again. They could have informed me of the warranty period before I shipped.

I then switched to a valeo stock 220 mm clutch found behind the 1.8t gas motor. I sent it off to South bend for there endurance treatment. Less than 700 bucks in the clutch/flywheel/treatment.

Much more friendly daily driver with stock clutch feel but it is very very grippy so in a rig off road it wouldn't be very smooth while feathering the throttle/clutch to get over something. You pretty much engage the clutch or don't otherwise she'll chatter and shake the car if you don't feather her properly. She's been slip free for going on 2 years and some 50k miles now.

With the larger diameter of the 3.4 flywheel it might engage a little more smoothly as it has more surface area? So a stock aisin with endurance treatment at south bend might be a pretty good option. I'd just hate to install it and it suck off road. The crawl ratio of the 4 runner with 4.10s and 33s isn't very good. I don't spend much time off road but when I do I like to have fun driving it.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
I think I'm going to end up with the exedy. The clutch doesn't know what motor so I don't see how there could be an issue there
it's due to the sharp torque rise of the diesel. So it does make a difference. Personally I'd recommend a ctx107 pressure plate with a sintered or kevlar faced disc. The ctx has a perfect feel and it's cheap. The matched dtx136 disc holds up well but is right on the edge for holding diesel torque rise. My next clutch is going to be centerforce dual friction with the weights removed as I occasionally slip the dtx136/ctx107 combo.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Centerforce with ctx107 plate? What's the reason for removing weights?
 

PradoTDI

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
I think I'm going to end up with the exedy. The clutch doesn't know what motor so I don't see how there could be an issue there. There are plenty of guys with super charged 3.4 motors making 300 plus ft lbs of torque. I never had issues with a properly matched exedy years ago with my turbo Honda B series.

What issues are you having with your clutch?

I have the same motor, same tune in my 5 speed converted passat.

I started with a a clutch master fx300 clutch that was far from cheap. Started slipping in less than a year of daily driving. The pressure plate had failed, lost all clamping force. The clutch flywheel set up was some 1000 bucks or more. I was far from thrilled. They had me ship it to them to see about warranty then informed me weeks after having it warranty was 90 days. Sadly we discussed purchase date in email/phone calls several times before I removed the assembly to ship it to them so they wasted both my time and shipping costs. I will not deal with them again. They could have informed me of the warranty period before I shipped.

I then switched to a valeo stock 220 mm clutch found behind the 1.8t gas motor. I sent it off to South bend for there endurance treatment. Less than 700 bucks in the clutch/flywheel/treatment.

Much more friendly daily driver with stock clutch feel but it is very very grippy so in a rig off road it wouldn't be very smooth while feathering the throttle/clutch to get over something. You pretty much engage the clutch or don't otherwise she'll chatter and shake the car if you don't feather her properly. She's been slip free for going on 2 years and some 50k miles now.

With the larger diameter of the 3.4 flywheel it might engage a little more smoothly as it has more surface area? So a stock aisin with endurance treatment at south bend might be a pretty good option. I'd just hate to install it and it suck off road. The crawl ratio of the 4 runner with 4.10s and 33s isn't very good. I don't spend much time off road but when I do I like to have fun driving it.
About 8k km after the swap I started to notice it was getting harder to change gear, so I replaced the old master and slave cylinders and reinstalled the factory accumulator. None of this solved the problem, and I would occasionally have the clutch completely fail to disengage when I pressed the pedal. I finally discovered that the clutch fork was positioned very near to the rear of the opening in the bell housing, causing it to chew up the rubber boot, which was limiting its travel. The only way I can see this happening is that the springs in the pressure plate have "sagged" over time, causing the slave cylinder to extend farther and pushing the clutch fork closer to the edge of the bell housing opening. I had no troubles with this for at least 6000-8000km.

This is the clutch in its resting or engaged position, pedal not depressed:

I also have experienced clutch shudder in first and second gear since day one. I go off road fairly often, so the shuddering has definitely been an issue, coupled with the on/off nature of this clutch. I'm running a Malone Stage 4 tune with around 275ft-lbs and don't plan to go any higher, so longevity and drivability are more of a concern that high performance. Sounds like I should look into the CTX-107/DTX-136 setup.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
Centerforce with ctx107 plate? What's the reason for removing weights?
Complete centerforce kit minus the weights. My current setup is an aisin dtx136/ctx107. The reason for the weight delete is they can be troublesome and cause weird pedal feel at different rpms. Quite a few people have deleted with no issue.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
How is the dual friction clutch for comfort/longititivity for a daily driver?


I would prefer to install this swap and not fool with it again so getting the clutch choice right the first time is important.
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
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05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
You're putting out more than 300 ft lbs of torque? I think I've asked you this before.
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
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05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Do you by chance know any of the Kevlar or upgraded disks that could be used with the ctx107 plate.

Looks like the dual friction plate is a little grippy from what I've been finding on forums, usually more track car friendly than daily driver.

I don't want to spill my morning coffee!
 

PradoTDI

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Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Do you by chance know any of the Kevlar or upgraded disks that could be used with the ctx107 plate.

Looks like the dual friction plate is a little grippy from what I've been finding on forums, usually more track car friendly than daily driver.

I don't want to spill my morning coffee!
Curious about this as well. I got a reply from tech support at LCE, they said that the torque of the diesel can damage the pressure plate. I'm guessing this is what happened to me, since I only started to have trouble with it after going from a Stage 1 to a Stage 4 tune.

Intrigued by the lower cost of the CTX107 pressure plate, but not sure the DTX136 clutch would be up to the task, especially in a 5000lb vehicle.
 

PickleRick

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Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Marlin crawler offers a 12000 lbs (33% over stock) 5vzfe clutch kit but its not in stock.

They claim the seco is an upgrade over the aisin. I wonder if one of those kits would work and if they are just mixed/matched off the shelf parts thay could be ordered elsewhere thanks to the back order.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
Marlin crawler offers a 12000 lbs (33% over stock) 5vzfe clutch kit but its not in stock.

They claim the seco is an upgrade over the aisin. I wonder if one of those kits would work and if they are just mixed/matched off the shelf parts thay could be ordered elsewhere thanks to the back order.
I'm pretty sure I tried Marlins 1,200 lb clutch for the 22RE and I slipped it immediately.
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
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05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I found an r150f from a rolled 3.0 pickup so ill run the slightly larger 5vze flywheel.

I had originally planned on running the w56 but when I found the 150 for 400ish and was able to sell the w56 for 250 it seemed like cheap insurance

Now I own two 1987 4 runners. I just need time turn it into a diesel mall crawler.
 

PradoTDI

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Sep 25, 2020
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MT
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1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
I have been in touch with the folks at Centerforce, they recommended the CFT505019 kit, rated for 387ft-lb. It's about $500 from them, but available for around $400 on Amazon and eBay. Also sent an email off to Clutch Masters, still awaiting a reply. @PickleRick which kit did South Bend recommend?
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
The HD kit. I cannot find where I jotted down the part number. It did end with HD

Did you by chance email or call centerforce and let them know the engine hits about 300 ft lbs of torque around 1900 rpms?

You know you have a fast diesel when cops will pull you over because of your rate of acceleration.
 

PradoTDI

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Location
MT
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1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
I did mention that, the tech person at Centerforce said that usually with a diesel the weak link is the disc hub and that they don't have one rated for diesel in that application, but that the Centerforce II should be fine in that application.

I also heard back from Clutch Masters, who recommended that their FX100 kit would be best for maintaining drivability without heavy abuse. Their website doesn't list any torque ratings or clamping force.
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I have zero faith in clutch masters, the only thing I found worse than their poor quality products would be their customer service.

As a shop service manager that does warranty work for a dozen or so different oem outdoor power equipment manufacturers, I've never dealt with a company so inept.
 
Last edited:

PradoTDI

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Sep 25, 2020
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MT
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1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Good to know! I wasn't terribly confident in the answer I got from them, especially considering they don't publish power or torque ratings for their products.
 

PradoTDI

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Location
MT
TDI
1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Just noticed that Centerforce has a 20% off sale running through September 7th, which brings the cost of the clutch kit down to around $400 with free shipping. Thinking I'll pull the trigger on their Centerforce II kit.
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I'm pulling my 22re today. I have it sold. Precedes will fund my clutch/flywheel and exhaust.

I'll look closely at the center force
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
Dana put a 10” Centerforce with the clamps in the truck I bought from him I believe. Holds really well, seems to have a bit of low rpm shudder. I try to keep my operating rpm’s above 1600 to make things easier on the transmission
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
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05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I went with the dual friction centerforce from jegs. I have to double check the exact specs but I believe it was the stage 2 street clutch. Rated for north of 400 ft lbs of torque.

I was hesitant at first until I read some fj40 reviews of them for on/off road performance. The 40 will beat you to death off road so I'm hopeful it will be a liveable off road set up.

I'll try to refrain from 2000 rpm clutch drops to keep from ripping out the clutch hub or my input shaft.
 

PradoTDI

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Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
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1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
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05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Since I'm running the 3.4 clutch flywheel on the 3.0 trans/tob I cut the weights off. I won't be reving more than 3500 rpms and likely rarely over 3000 so I figured why risk them interfering with with tob.

Did you leave yours in place?
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
What was the clutch that came apart?
 

PradoTDI

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Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
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1997 Jetta TDI, 1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
Since I'm running the 3.4 clutch flywheel on the 3.0 trans/tob I cut the weights off. I won't be reving more than 3500 rpms and likely rarely over 3000 so I figured why risk them interfering with with tob.

Did you leave yours in place?
I left the weights in place, I'm running all 3.4 hardware. I figured they're designed to be there so they're probably just fine!

What was the clutch that came apart?
That was the LCEngineering Pro Clutch Kit for 5VZ-FE applications.
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
I am pretty sure the setup pictured with the weights still on is what is in my Tacoma. 10” v6 clutch on Randy’s, now NWfab’s, heavy flywheel with the 4cyl crank pattern and W series bell. I found a turbo R151 which will fit, except the transfer case splines. I will be interested to see what you guys think of the clutch. Quite a bit heavier than the vr6 in the Jetta, but not bad, nothing that would wear a person out. Some light shudder below 1500 rpm which doesn’t necessarily have to be the clutch I guess. The clutch hold good if I stab the throttle hard
 
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