Clutch Chatter?

jesus_man

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Jim at Dieselgeek said to just be careful. He's seen those come apart and they lock up, ruining the bell housing (which requires a new tranny) and breaking a motor mount somewhere. I am sure you could buy the parts and find someone local to help you install it and still be $1k ahead in the end.

Jim recommended I get the 10pc stretch bolt kit, but says normally people don't get them. $30 for the set is cheap insurance to do the job right.

J.D.
 

FredIA

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The description of "smooth as silk" on a hot dry day but grabs (I guess "judder" is the correct term on this thread) on wet days sounds like my '06 TDI for about the last 2K miles or so-- well it only does it the first 3 or 4 times I start on a wet day and then I am fine again. It's smooth on dry cold days as well. It would be interesting to try to duplicate this for the dealer tech. I posted my description of what is going on with mine on the last thread.

I cannot believe that the dealers only warrant the flywheel for 12/12. How exactly is the flywheel a wear item? Can one damage a flywheel by bad "clutching" on a stock car? I guess I need this explained to me. Regardless, the car is stock and I'm easy on clutches.

I probably am in the position of having to have my clutch replaced at 33.5K. I made it 130K + on the clutch of my previous manual and the car was a POS. I wonder how long VW will get away with this?

Is there a guru out there who can do a clutch with in driving distance of Cedar Rapids? I can guess what will happen at the dealer. But I'll see I guess if I have to...:(

Fred
 

jesus_man

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Fred, I posed the same question to the service manager. He just simply said it's not covered anymore. I have never seen a dual-mass flywheel in my life, but I don't understand why it's a wear item as well. The Service manager even told me there is a good amount of wear left in the cluctch still. A lot of good that does me if the flywheel is failing.
 

Lee_Taylor

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I think I would bypass the Service Manager and go direct to VW it's not like these DMF failures are uncommon. Seems to me that this is not a wear and tear component like a clutch. VW has enough bad publicity on its hands already with the dsg fiasco for the sake of a phone call it's worth pursuing.

Fred....

Minnesota

Deafbug
http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=2872

Merkerguitars
http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=21605

greengeeker
http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=41071

or Wisconsin

JasonTDI Repair
920 Stewart St
Madison, WI 53713
(630) 334-0540
jsd 13 @ charter . net


Courtesy Auto Service
3030 Milwaukee St
Madison, WI 53714
(608) 244-8088
http://www.courtesyautomadison.com

Ben's Vee-Dub Shop
4806 E Broadway, Suite C
Madison, WI 53716
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FredIA

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Thanks.. we will see. I'll take it to the stealer next week and see if they can duplicate my issue and whether or not they will fix it. Pity I just bought a second new VW a week ago also. (Not a TDI).

I sent off a PM to Jason. Hopefully he can give me some advice. I am wondering if replacing it with a SMF is the way to go anyway.

Madison is significantly closer than Minneapolis for me. Thanks.

Fred
 

jesus_man

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I sent an email to customer care. Will advise.

J.D.
 

jesus_man

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That's interesting. Thanks Twotone! I wish there was a way to determine for certain it was a sachs assembly tho before I commited to $2k of R&R.

J.D.
 

TwoTone

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jesus_man said:
That's interesting. Thanks Twotone! I wish there was a way to determine for certain it was a sachs assembly tho before I commited to $2k of R&R.

J.D.
Well that's the gamble. I'll say it again, it also the reason I decided to just spend my money and get a SMF.

I'm happy with my choice and if I had to do it over, I wouldn't have waited til it failed. The car drives like it should now.

I was a tech for about 10 years, driven all kinds of manual cars, few shifts and I'd have the feel for the clutch.

This POS DMF in the VW I'd stall at least once ever time I was out in it.
 

jesus_man

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I consider myself somewhat of an expert manual driver as well. All my primary vehicles have been manuals, everything from a mazda protege, and an F-350, to my '73 recreational bronco. I have owned two automatics in my life and they were the wife's cars. But, as you say, every so often I'd kill the car too. Have always done that since it was new. Pawned it off to no low end torque, which is opposite of what I have comne accustomed to in a diesel.

I do go back and forth on this issue. On one hand, I'd love to fix it the right way, but on the other hand, they should own up to faulty equipment. If they'd supply with a LUK replacement, I'd be more than happy to install it. Fat chance!

J.D.
 

jklmv

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Thurmont, MD
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Jetta 2005.5, Golf 2001
Be persistent and have VW replace the Dual Mass Flywheel under the power train warranty. The service manager may consider it a wear item but that is not what the owners manual states. Just take the manual in and show him that the flywheel is covered under the power train warranty. When they want to charge you more for the clutch tell them it was ruined by the failure of the dual mass flywheel and is also covered by the TSB. Case closed. Remember if you pay the dealer they make more than if VW pays them. In addition this a big issue. I have lost mine and it was covered under a third party insurance policy, and my friend has lost his twice before 50K. His was covered twice by VW, but not with out confronting VW with the facts!
 

jesus_man

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I just got a call from VW corp. He said that they have to stand behind what the dealer diagnoses and they wouldn't know for certain if it was covered under warranty until they removed the transmission to find the sachs assembly or other. So if it is NOT under warranty, I have to pay their labor rate to have them either finish the job or put it back together so I can fix it. It's too risky, so I am leaning towards just coughing up the $500 and doing it myself. That is unless someone knows of a better way to determine which clutch assembly is in my car. If I can determine it's a sachs, I'll take my car back with the TSB and get it fixed under warranty.

This frustrates me, but I have pretty well decided I'll never own another VW again. Not on this issue alone, of course.

J.D.
 

jklmv

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Jetta 2005.5, Golf 2001
Get your manual out and read what is covered under the power train warranty. You will find that the dual mass flywheel is covered 100%. It does not matter who made the device or how the vehicle was driven. It is covered. Tell them it is bad and needs to be replaced. It does not matter that service manager feels like the Dual Mass Flywheel is a wear item, the manual clearly states that it is covered under the power train warrenty.

What the Service manager is saying is that the dual mass flywheel is junk and wears out. Any clutch job should include the flywheel.

This is not a failed clutch, but rather a failed Dual Mass Flywheel. There are large numbers of these failing and VW knows it, but is not forthright about it.
 

jesus_man

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Oh, sorry. I thought by manual you meant TSB. I will dig out the manual and start doing some reading when my wife gets home with the car. The plot thickens.

J.D.
 

TwoTone

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jklmv said:
Get your manual out and read what is covered under the power train warranty. You will find that the dual mass flywheel is covered 100%. It does not matter who made the device or how the vehicle was driven. It is covered. Tell them it is bad and needs to be replaced. It does not matter that service manager feels like the Dual Mass Flywheel is a wear item, the manual clearly states that it is covered under the power train warrenty.

What the Service manager is saying is that the dual mass flywheel is junk and wears out. Any clutch job should include the flywheel.

This is not a failed clutch, but rather a failed Dual Mass Flywheel. There are large numbers of these failing and VW knows it, but is not forthright about it.
You really haven't dealt with dealers and warranty a lot have you? Most clutch jobs don't require a flywheel.

Jesus Man I'd be careful with the advice you get. No dealer is going to say ok it's warranty until they take it apart.

Then if they say it's not, what are you going to do- fight them? Remember, it's now sitting at the dealer apart while you fight.

Running in there with a manual won't change anything, there's a TSB and that's what they will follow.
 

jklmv

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Jetta 2005.5, Golf 2001
If you continue to drive it as it is, the dual mass flywheel will continue to fall apart. It will get to the point that you will have a lot of noise and vibration at idle that can only be caused by the dual mass flywheel. Yes you run the risk, although small, the you might ruin the engine and/or transmission. If you are less than 50K, it is VW problem.

In all three cases I have been involved with, I had the issue of warrenty resolved before the car was torn apart. If you can not get VW to determine that dual mass flywheel is bad by driving and listening to it, take it to another mechanic that can. Then pressure VW.

If you do not inform your self and provide the documentation of this problem to VW, they will take advantage of you.
 

Ol'Rattler

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2006 BRM Jetta
jesus_man said:
I just got a call from VW corp. He said that they have to stand behind what the dealer diagnoses and they wouldn't know for certain if it was covered under warranty until they removed the transmission to find the sachs assembly or other. So if it is NOT under warranty, I have to pay their labor rate to have them either finish the job or put it back together so I can fix it. It's too risky, so I am leaning towards just coughing up the $500 and doing it myself. That is unless someone knows of a better way to determine which clutch assembly is in my car. If I can determine it's a sachs, I'll take my car back with the TSB and get it fixed under warranty.J.D.
The dealer/VOA is on crack. It clearly states in the TSB with pictures, how to tell if the clutch is a Sachs or a Luk without removing the transaxle. There is a little cover near the R/H axle that you take off to view the clutch. Towards the outer edge of the pressure plate, the Sachs clutch is somewhat rounded, while the Luk clutch is kinda squared off. Bentleys shows the difference as well. There is a separate removal procedure for both types in the Bentleys.
 
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jklmv

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Yes, I agree to the extent that if you determine that the sachs clutch is installed then you are covered under the TSB as well as the power train warranty.

When you are looking through the small inspection plate, you may see a lot of greasy black rubber from the dual mass flywheel if it is failing.

I maintain that any good mechanic can determine if the dual mass flywheel has failed with out taking the car apart, and warranty of the dual mass flywheel can be determined in advance. You can not count on the benevolence of VW to just warranty this. In all three of my experiences, I had to show them where they were wrong. I printed out many pages from this site as well as from NTSB. I also had a audio clip from Youtube of what a failed dual mass flywheel sounds like... Socal networking is your friend on this one. Knowledge is power. What I keep hammering away on the last one was... What could make that noise and vibration other that the bad dual mass flywheel? Listen to this audio clip of what a failed dual mass flywheel sounds like. Sounds the same to me... There was no valid answer given, other than we will get back to you.

On a side note, I am not aware of any failures of the luk clutchs, and in fact I believe that luk clutches are not installed the MK5 US cars. This is a big assumption on my part. Has any one determined that they have a lik clutch? Please post.
 
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Ol'Rattler

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My 06 had the Sachs, as I determined by the TSB. Not wanting to be part of the living hell called warranty repair, I went ahead and changed it out for a DC stage 1 SMF at 50K miles and couldn't be happier....................As an aside, my DMF wasn't coming apart. I just got tired of driving in heavy traffic being a chore because the DMF death rattle when you start off from a stop. The SMF is a joy to drive....................
 
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Ol'Rattler

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jklmv said:
Did the dual mass flywheel fail, or did you loose the clutch?
Neither. If I had taken it in, they probably would have deturmined that it was operating within design perimeters. The main reason I changed it was because it was so easy to stall and the sometimes extreme judder when taking off from a stop.
 

jklmv

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Did you check the dual mass flywheel for rotational movement? I suspect that was worn.

I went through the whole hard to get a smooth start, to vibration under load, to horrific noise at idle. The time from vibration under load to noisy idle was not that long, although I was doing a lot of full accelerations in my diagnosis and desire to have a clearly identifiable problem. The average tech would not agree that a drive line vibration is a failed dual mass flywheel.
 

Ol'Rattler

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On the DMF I can fairly easily move it back and forth about an inch, which i would assume is normal. The only problem I had was at taking off from a stop. 10 MPH and above there was absolutely no issues.

I've driven many clutches over the years, and the DMF has got to be the absolute worst for smooth operation I have ever driven.:eek:
 

jesus_man

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If I had a reputable dealer across town, this battle would be much easier to fight. But since I have to travel 1.5hrs to get to one, it creates quite a problem. I'll have to go there with my ducks in a row and all my documentation stating it's covered. Another issue is the car is rapidly approaching the 50k mark!

Ol'Rattler - I will look at the TSB again (print it this time) and see if I can determine myself if it's a sachs. WHich appears to be very likely. If it is, I'll release the hounds!

J.D.
 

Ol'Rattler

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On mine, I couldn't find the little cover initially but there are places you can look into enough to tell which brand clutch you have....................It is my less than perfect understanding that almost all of the A5s have the Sachs, while the A4s most likely have the Luk.
 
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jesus_man

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OK, thanks for the info. I hope to be crawling under it this weekend!

J.D.
 

jesus_man

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I found where the flywheel is covered under the limited warranty in the booklet. Also crawled under the car last night and pulled the inspection cover to find:



A sachs flywheel right?? Not that it really matters, it is covered under the warranty and/or the TSB. So VW corp is getting a call from me this afternoon.

BTW getting that little bolt back in that holds the cover on was not fun! Especially doing it twice. After I got the noise dampener back on I found the washer to that bolt laying on the floor. Doh!

J.D.
 

jklmv

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Looks like you are informed and ready to present your case to VW. I believe that you will prevail. Keep us updated, and remember 50K down the road you will have to have a better fix. It's called single mass flywheel.
 

Sweeps

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None currently. MK4/5/6 Jetta's in the past.
My clutch seemed to chatter a bit when I bought it at 70k miles, now at 118k miles it seems to be getting better.
It's not chattering as much.
 

jesus_man

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jklmv said:
Looks like you are informed and ready to present your case to VW. I believe that you will prevail. Keep us updated, and remember 50K down the road you will have to have a better fix. It's called single mass flywheel.
Yes. Supposedly they have fixed the issue with the sachs clutch, so hopefully it'll last longer. If we get another 50k out of a fix that just costs me a little time, I am all for it.

Just got off the phone with corporate and it's still in the air because the dealer needs to perform a "Full diagnosis" in order to determine if it's a wear issue or faulty equipment. I am still confident that it's faulty equipment simply because it was fine when we left TX and 850 miles later it's driving funny. That and we don't abuse that clutch in any way shape or form. So I guess it's time to call the dealer and setup another appointment. I sure wish they'd license other shops to do warranty work! I will certainly keep you informed.

J.D.
 
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