Clogged DPF and failed exhaust temp sensor

[colekicker]

So my 2010 JSW had a check engine light come on. I took it by O'Reily's to read the code and it was P2031 bank 1 sensor 2.
Researched it and I put the sensor in after cat. Cleared the code and everything was fine for a day.
Then, CEL came back on along with the squiggly line flashing for malfunction. I went ahead and took it to the local dealer. Last time the squiggly line came on I had a glow plug failure, so I figured I just get them to change it.
Here comes the bad news. P2031 bank 1 sensor 2. I changed the wrong sensor. I change an O2 sensor and not a temp sensor. I was frustrated since I thought I had changed the right part, but it was my mistake.
Next, the DPF was getting clogged. They wanted me to replace the DPF.
Total repair cost, $2200-2500.
Now, what would cause a DPF to plug?
Short driving distances not building enough heat to actually get to a regen cycle. (130 mile round trip commute)
Using the incorrect oil (all service at VW dealer)
Aborting a regen cycle (don't do this)
I don't do any of those, so there is one logical reason it would fail.
I called VWoA and opened a case. I am out of any warranty, but think we all have a legitimate case to have any DPF failures covered.
With the current cheat system in place with the software, it is not going though regen cycles as often as it should to meet EPA guidelines. Everyone knows this.
But, if the system is not going through the regen cycles as often as it should, it just means that more particulate matter is building up on the DPF before it gets burned off.
So, by not going through the regen cycles, DPFs will fail prematurely. Now, how long would a DPF last if it was going through the proper cycles? We don't really have a good baseline. What we do know is that not going through regen cycles will cause it to fail.
I did not may an unrealistic request to VWoA. I offered to put the $1000 in goodwill cards along with $750 towards the repair with VWoA matching the $750. The young lady quickly declined my offer.
I plead my case that the issues were directly related and was told there was no way they could be related. I was given a case number and told to wait for a call by the end of day Wednesday.
At this point, I feel I have given them a fair out. Pay $750 of the repair and we can all move on. I don't think they will contribute, but I think this will be a nice addition to the class action lawsuit.
I am in a bit of a rock and a hard place. I don't want to spend a bunch of money on the car if the DPF may be replaced under the recall. I know that the recall is the reason for the failure.
Has anyone had a DPF cleaned here in the US?

 

[Efchou]

The DPF clogged because the EGT sensor failed; without a functional EGT Probe, the regen cycles cannot start as it relies on them to adjust fueling and complete its cycle without overheating and potentially damaging other components (eg. Turbo). You could possibly clean the dpf if there is a service provider nearby. The probe may not be under warranty, but does the vehicle have less than 80k miles? If so, the vehicle is still under emissions warranty; they may try to get out of it by placing the blame for dpf clogging due to the failed sensor which is not covered by emissions warranty. A catch 22 of sorts, you need a non emission covered part for your emissions components to function properly. Hope you get your situation resolved

 

[OilBurningBrit]

<snip> I am out of any warranty, but think we all have a legitimate case to have any DPF failures covered.
With the current cheat system in place with the software, it is not going though regen cycles as often as it should to meet EPA guidelines. Everyone knows this.
<snip>

You're confusing two different things:

DPF: controls soot only
NOx trap: supposedly used to control NOx

"Dieselgate" has to do only with the NOx side of things, and as such has absolutely nothing to do with the DPF/regen cycles. It can be a little confusing since some potential fixes for the NOx problem could result in greater soot production, thus compromising DPF longevity ... but *nobody* has a fix installed on their car yet, since a fix hasn't been created yet.

The first scheduled check of the DPF is at 120K miles (if memory serves) and then every 10K (maybe 20K?) after. If you're at 137K miles, while it may be a bit early, it seems reasonable it might need replacement. As Efchou mentioned, driving round with a faulty EGT sensor will cause things to go south much faster.

 

[CNGVW]

It take some time to plug up a DPF but you drove it with a check engine light on for some time.
You can not drive one of this CR engines with the check engine light on it turns in to a very costly solution .
Case in point with the cracked DPF P0401 plugged EGR filter. When one of this engines has a code up it will stop a lot of emission controls from working.
With the P0401 it stops both EGR valves from working and over a short time they will get stuck in the closed or open position witch can add another $500-1000 to the fix.

 

[meerschm]

Has anyone had a DPF cleaned here in the US?

several folks have successfully had the DPF cleaned.

Vendors who will clean dpf filters with attached cats include www.fsxinc.com and http://www.dpfregeneration.com these folks make sure the ash and soot are disposed of safely.

Last time I checked, they want around $400 to clean a TDI DPF.

you also can check a local truck stop. many have the equipment to clean DPFs.

you will have to remove the DPF from the car (taking care with the sensors you know are important to keep working)

and get it to the folks who will clean it.

reconditioned DPFs run around $900. (plus exchange and all the labor involved)

 

[colekicker]

To add some clarity, I put 300 miles on the car from when the light came on until the diagnosis.

180 of those miles were just with the CEL on. The next 120 were with the CEL and squiggly line flashing (round trip to the dealer and back).

If I were to replace the EGT sensor and it read the temperature, could it possibly go into a regen cycle?

I guess I am just caught, because I don't want to dump a bunch of money into the car with the recall going on. And when putting that kind of money into the car, it might be better to just delete it.

 

[colekicker]

You're confusing two different things:

DPF: controls soot only
NOx trap: supposedly used to control NOx

"Dieselgate" has to do only with the NOx side of things, and as such has absolutely nothing to do with the DPF/regen cycles. It can be a little confusing since some potential fixes for the NOx problem could result in greater soot production, thus compromising DPF longevity ... but *nobody* has a fix installed on their car yet, since a fix hasn't been created yet.

The first scheduled check of the DPF is at 120K miles (if memory serves) and then every 10K (maybe 20K?) after. If you're at 137K miles, while it may be a bit early, it seems reasonable it might need replacement. As Efchou mentioned, driving round with a faulty EGT sensor will cause things to go south much faster.

I will agree with you that the "Dieselgate" issue is in regards to NOx output. To say that it is only with the trap is not taking the full picture of the system into consideration.
We know that the vehicle when in test mode vs. real world driving did not perform the same, or that regens did not occur in the same frequency, impacting the NOx output. In turn, this also increases the mpg.
So if you weren't going through a regen as often as you should, it would impact the particulate matter flowing downstream to the NOx trap.
I can't help but disagree with you when you say that it has nothing to do with the DPF.

 

[meerschm]

it all depends.....

if the ECU is preventing active regens because it is missing the temp sensor,

and if you have not built up too much soot in the interim,

it ought to fire right up into an active regen as soon as conditions allow, once the sensors are all working.

on the other hand, if the ECU estimate of soot is too high, perhaps not. I would be inclined to rely upon the measured soot, vs the calculated, but the ECU only cares about which is higher.



do you have a VCDS?

 

[colekicker]

No to the vcds.

Dealership didn't give me the full paperwork, but I did get the codes. P2031 bank 1, sensor 2 and p2463- excessive soot accumulation

 

[meerschm]

on the tie to the "switch" and waiting for a fix next year,

my guess is that the DPF is not involved.

the DPF is meant to stop all soot from getting past, and the maintenance cycles of exhaust conditions to regenerate the DPF are intertwined with those needed for the NOX cat care and feeding.

if, as we suspect, they modify to use DEF, the likely path would be to replace components after the DPF, to update the material in the NOX cat, and add DEF plumbing. on the 2009, the DPF is attached to the NOX cat, which would require replacement of the DPF with the NOX cat. (changing to use DEF should also come with a nice MPG boost)

for your car, it would be reasonable for them to consider any DPF issues as unrelated to the NOX control update.


folks who fix any issues along the way have had DPFs last well over 200,000 miles with no issues. (one guy had the ash cleaned around 280,000 and is still driving with the once-cleaned DPF)

but driving around with a bad sensor is not good.

so assuming you really have too much soot in the DPF, you need to get the sensor fixed, and DPF either cleaned or replaced. If you had a VCDS we could go through a few more validations, and perhaps try to trick into a regen, but without the data, this is too risky. (and a dealer would not accept the risk even with the info.)

you have an estimate from the dealer. you may be able to find a local mechanic who might be cheaper, and you could consider having the DPF cleaned instead of replaced. cleaning takes more time, replacing costs a bit more.

VW may shave some $$ off the fix, but really they can blame the whole thing on your driving with the bad sensor.

 

[turbobrick240]

I assume you got the right sensor replaced eventually, correct? A bad egt sensor alone will throw a flashing glow plug light. 137K is pretty early for a dpf to clog. Is the car still in limp mode and throwing codes? If so, which codes? I would try driving for 15-20 minutes at 2700+ rpm to get a good passive regen.

 

[colekicker]

I have not replaced the sensor yet. It is on order. I am no longer driving the car.

I did make a call about getting the DPF cleaned. The info I received was not good. They said the filter has to be cut open to be cleaned. My concern with this is if it is damaged internally, then it is lost.

I did speak to the local CAT dealer. They advised me to remove it, trash bag the inlet to the DPF and blow air back through it.

If I could get the dealer down on price, I'd have them do it using my goodwill package towards it. But, I can sit on the car for a bit and wait. I'll just drive my old Dodge w/ 21 mpg.

 

[turbobrick240]

It seems the only indication that the dpf is clogged is from the dealer. I would get the correct sensor installed in the correct location (not by the dealership), and then take the car for a nice long highway drive. The dealerships are generally the worst places to take your car for any kind of work. Your dpf may well just need a good regen.

 

[colekicker]

So, I just couldn't get past this today. You guys are going to love this and probably laugh a little and maybe even cry.
Well, I had a rat get into the garage a while back. Set a trap and finally caught him. While I was bumbling around the Jetta today still pissed about dropping serious money into a car with 137K miles, I started looking around under the hood.
I looked straight down between the engine and radiator and noticed some white substance. It was paper. And hay. And leaves. Acorns. You name it, the rat must have gotten under the engine and started a rats nest.
At this point, I decided to follow harness from the exhaust gas temperature sensor, where I found the problem the dealer missed. It seems the rat chewed through the harness before the connector.
So, I will speak to the dealer tomorrow. If they put it on the computer and it gave them an error code, did they even ohm out the sensor?
I am starting to lose faith in technicians. If the computer doesn't tell them what to change, do they even know?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B53PaRhNNHsvd05aVEswV0JKM2s/view?usp=sharing

 

[TDI-CRUZ]

I assume you got the right sensor replaced eventually, correct? A bad egt sensor alone will throw a flashing glow plug light. 137K is pretty early for a dpf to clog. Is the car still in limp mode and throwing codes? If so, which codes? I would try driving for 15-20 minutes at 2700+ rpm to get a good passive regen.

Wow, I'm a home inspector by trade and can only tell you that rodents wreak havoc on all kinds of things including wiring and other components in homes.

You say 137K is early for a dpf to clog. Well... I just found out that mine clogged at 123K after having the 120K service done just two days earlier. The CEL came on during my Thanksgiving roadtrip. Autonation Mall of GA VW showed me a figure to replace DPF & ERG to the tune of $2,810 after I just dropped $1,850 on the 120K service with timing belt.

I could not believe the DPF failed during my Atlanta to Orlando trip and the tail pipes became sooty that fast. The mechanic revised his earlier statement about them failing from about 130K-140K to about 120K (conveniently to my range)

I'm checking with AARodriquez in Dallas tomorrow to see about getting an estimate on a DPF/EGR delete with some kind of mod. I have no idea what these stage 1, 2, 3 mods are all about. This is my first TDI JSW.

I spoke to a helpful saleslady who was candid with me and suggested waiting until January about a fix to see what they might cover or offer. I am able to do that. Meanwhile, I filed for the $1K Goodwill package.

I will check back for your updates and be glad to share mine.

 

[aja8888]

If the computer doesn't tell them what to change, do they even know?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B53PaRhNNHsvd05aVEswV0JKM2s/view?usp=sharing

Welcome to the real world. (we don't have to answer that question...it's obvious)

 

[turbobrick240]

Wow, I'm a home inspector by trade and can only tell you that rodents wreak havoc on all kinds of things including wiring and other components in homes.
You say 137K is early for a dpf to clog. Well... I just found out that mine clogged at 123K after having the 120K service done just two days earlier. The CEL came on during my Thanksgiving roadtrip. Autonation Mall of GA VW showed me a figure to replace DPF & ERG to the tune of $2,810 after I just dropped $1,850 on the 120K service with timing belt.
I could not believe the DPF failed during my Atlanta to Orlando trip and the tail pipes became sooty that fast. The mechanic revised his earlier statement about them failing from about 130K-140K to about 120K (conveniently to my range)
I'm checking with AARodriquez in Dallas tomorrow to see about getting an estimate on a DPF/EGR delete with some kind of mod. I have no idea what these stage 1, 2, 3 mods are all about. This is my first TDI JSW.
I spoke to a helpful saleslady who was candid with me and suggested waiting until January about a fix to see what they might cover or offer. I am able to do that. Meanwhile, I filed for the $1K Goodwill package.
I will check back for your updates and be glad to share mine.

If you have a sooty tailpipe, that would indicate a cracked dpf. I suppose it's possible the dpf could crack as a result of getting clogged, but it could also very likely be unrelated to clogging.

 

[JSWTDI09]

So, I will speak to the dealer tomorrow. If they put it on the computer and it gave them an error code, did they even ohm out the sensor?
I am starting to lose faith in technicians. If the computer doesn't tell them what to change, do they even know?

Your problem and your question are both somehow intertwined and summed up in the above 2 sentences. You are getting your car serviced at a dealership. Dealerships are almost always the most expensive place to have your car repaired. That might be acceptable *IF* they knew what they were doing and earned the extra money. This is rarely the case in the real world. Dealer techs are trained to plug in the computer and replace parts. They are not trained to troubleshoot and (more importantly) they are not trained on the details about how the cars actually work. This is why most TDIClub members usually use dealerships only to purchase new cars, new parts, safety recalls, and warranty service. There are many members here who know more about how our engines work than anybody at a dealership ever will, and there are real mechanics out there (not at dealerships) who do better work for less money and they actually troubleshoot and test parts before replacing them (when applicable). Have you tried looking at the TDIClub's "Trusted Mechanics List" in the TDI101 forum?

Have Fun!

Don

 

[Smashed Ixnay]

Wow, I'm a home inspector by trade and can only tell you that rodents wreak havoc on all kinds of things including wiring and other components in homes.

You say 137K is early for a dpf to clog. Well... I just found out that mine clogged at 123K after having the 120K service done just two days earlier. The CEL came on during my Thanksgiving roadtrip. Autonation Mall of GA VW showed me a figure to replace DPF & ERG to the tune of $2,810 after I just dropped $1,850 on the 120K service with timing belt.

I could not believe the DPF failed during my Atlanta to Orlando trip and the tail pipes became sooty that fast. The mechanic revised his earlier statement about them failing from about 130K-140K to about 120K (conveniently to my range)

I'm checking with AARodriquez in Dallas tomorrow to see about getting an estimate on a DPF/EGR delete with some kind of mod. I have no idea what these stage 1, 2, 3 mods are all about. This is my first TDI JSW.

I spoke to a helpful saleslady who was candid with me and suggested waiting until January about a fix to see what they might cover or offer. I am able to do that. Meanwhile, I filed for the $1K Goodwill package.

I will check back for your updates and be glad to share mine.

$1,850 for the 120k service? Holy ****! We are at 98k and I knew it was going to be expensive, but not almost $2k expensive!

 

[johngfc]

$1,850 for the 120k service? Holy ****! We are at 98k and I knew it was going to be expensive, but not almost $2k expensive!

Much of that $1850 is for relatively simple maintenance - fuel filter, air filter, pollen filter, DSG (if applicable) fluid change, and lots of "looking at stuff". Most of this you can easily do and save $600 or so in parts and labor. The timing belt change is (IMHO) something most casual backyard mechanics won't want to tackle, although you can purchase DIY kits with all the parts and detailed instructions. I'd guess the labor on the TB change is ~ $400 (I'd think ~5 hrs for a skilled mechanic; a full day or two for the rest of us). You can find how-tos for all the routine operations on this site.

 

[pkhoury]

It take some time to plug up a DPF but you drove it with a check engine light on for some time.
You can not drive one of this CR engines with the check engine light on it turns in to a very costly solution .
Case in point with the cracked DPF P0401 plugged EGR filter. When one of this engines has a code up it will stop a lot of emission controls from working.
With the P0401 it stops both EGR valves from working and over a short time they will get stuck in the closed or open position witch can add another $500-1000 to the fix.

What would be the threshold for oil ash loading if my DPF were bad? Mine was replaced on my '10 just before 80K under emissions warranty, although I got a P0401 yesterday (and a glow plug error). I saved on VCDS and reset, and I'll see if they come back on my 400 mile trip later today. I'm concerned this could be the sign of the DPF going out again, but I'm contemplating a DPF delete anyways.

 

[jason_]

I've been told and read 175.

Im at 258mL!!

Hehehe

It regens often, but still regens. It's coming out soon. I'm not dumping $4K on it.

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!

 

[mrbowtieguy]

do you remember where the post DPF filter temp sensor harness is located?
I replaced a motor and I cannot remember or find the sensor or harness for the post dpf.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

I am starting to lose faith in technicians. If the computer doesn't tell them what to change, do they even know?

Through an obscure process called diagnosis.

A lot of boneheaded techs assume that the DTC (code) tells them what part to change. That's why they might throw thousands of dollars in parts at a code when the actual problem might be as simple as a loose ground. All a DTC gives is a place to start diagnosing a problem.