"clean diesel" on Market Place Morning Report

[MrErlo]

there was a story this morning about "clean diesel" on the Market Place Morning Report. nothing new, just that anything to change the image of diesel being dirty, smelly and loud is good for everyone.

 

[DickSilver]

I notice in the other 49 states, that diesel pumps are required to carry a label proclaiming them to be "LOW SULFUR DIESEL," but then ststing that it is 500 ppm sulfur maximum, and that it may NOT be used to fuel 2007 model year vehicles..... so WHEN do the rest of us REALLY get ULSD??

 

[MrMopar]

I notice in the other 49 states, that diesel pumps are required to carry a label proclaiming them to be "LOW SULFUR DIESEL," but then ststing that it is 500 ppm sulfur maximum, and that it may NOT be used to fuel 2007 model year vehicles..... so WHEN do the rest of us REALLY get ULSD??

You probably already have ULSD in the tanks at the fuel station, but the lawyers for fuel distributors have to be 100% sure that ULSD is completly throughout the distribution network and that all the fuel that comes out of the pump meets the 15ppm specs.

Fuel stations usually have insurance to cover damage done to vehicles by bad fuel. Repairs to diesel fuel systems can be expensive, and with the new exhaust system equipment I can easily see a bill for thousands of $$$ if a NOx catalyst in some post-2007 vehicle is ruined by some high-sulfur fuel. The sticker is a CYA measure for the fuel station. If some dolt knowingly or unknowingly fuels their diesel vehicle with some fuel that ruins the exhaust system with excess sulfur, there won't be much of a court case if the fuel station can say "We put the sticker right on the pump telling you not to fill up with this fuel."

 

[Dodoma]

9/2/06
What good is the ultra low sulpher diesel when no new diesel cars are permitted for sale here in California. Also, we are not seeing any wide selection of diesel cars in USA compared to Europe. The ones available, such as VW are still struggling to get past 100 h.p. and coinsigned to slow lane. What we need is high performance diesel cars such as Beemer.

 

[J]

slow lane...

"The ones available, such as VW are still struggling to get past 100 h.p. and coinsigned to slow lane."

I never ride in the slow lane!
hp is overated, torque is the shizit. 150 lb ft is fine!

 

[naturist]

9/2/06
What good is the ultra low sulpher diesel when no new diesel cars are permitted for sale here in California. Also, we are not seeing any wide selection of diesel cars in USA compared to Europe. The ones available, such as VW are still struggling to get past 100 h.p. and coinsigned to slow lane. What we need is high performance diesel cars such as Beemer.

(1) you in soCal have had especially low sulfur diesel for years now. Even without the added catalysts of the new emissions systems, lower sulfur means less pollution.

(2) the Jeep CRD at 160 hp is a snappy performer. and indeed, hp is not what it takes for high performance: what it takes is torque. In any case, getting the wider selection of higher performance vehicles requires ULSD. Would YOU buy a vehicle for which you couldn't find fuel? I didn't think so. So be a little patient, will ya? More choices in your ride are coming, now that the sulfur content has been reduced.

(3) whattaya mean "consigned to the slow lane?" nonsense. look around here, you'll find plenty of instances of folks keeping up with and even outrunning muscle cars.

 

[Drivbiwire]

9/2/06
What good is the ultra low sulpher diesel when no new diesel cars are permitted for sale here in California. Also, we are not seeing any wide selection of diesel cars in USA compared to Europe. The ones available, such as VW are still struggling to get past 100 h.p. and coinsigned to slow lane. What we need is high performance diesel cars such as Beemer.

The heII with California! We are getting new diesels here in Idaho!!!

Mercedes will be offering the ML320 Bluetec 220hp @389ft-lbs torque V6 CDI!!!, The R-Class and E-Class will also have the same engine

California as in "CARB" has screwed themselves with the way the regulate that I hope they NEVER get another diesel engine sold in that state...sadly the "BLUETEC" will be a 50 state compliant diesel

Time for another Benz, the wife wants the ML320, move over VW the third bay is yours from now on

DB

 

[gottdi]

California

Well you can't buy new cars but you sure can buy the trucks. Ton's of them here. And you can bring in a used TDI (lots coming in right now) so that is the reason California needs ULSD.

Can't wait till Honda brings out a screamer diesel. Unless VW beats them to the punch. Maybe they will. Maybe they already have one waiting in the wings that none of us know about. Same for Honda, Toyota and the others. They know there is a following for diesel power. Keepin the fingers crossed. Till then its my 01 Beetle TDI!

 

[MrMopar]

What good is the ultra low sulpher diesel when no new diesel cars are permitted for sale here in California.

It's good that all those semi-trucks aren't spewing that sulfur into the air from their exhaust stacks. Whether Californians like it or not, everyone who buys anything from a store contributes to the usage of diesel fuel. In this manner, the mandate for ULSD is helping everyone to pollute less.

Also, we are not seeing any wide selection of diesel cars in USA compared to Europe.

Correct. No one in the USA really cared about diesel cars until now - when fuel is $3 a gallon and more. Despite what lots of naysayers say, automakers can't make what won't sell. When the current design cycle was started (3-4 years ago) gasoline was cheap. People wanted Hummer H2s. Now things are different. People want diesel cars. And as a result of that BMW, Honda, VW, and DCX are all trying hard to come up with a wave of diesel products for the USA. I think rumor has it that even GM is planning on some European diesel engines coming into their American products. Would be nice to get a V-6 diesel Impala. Especially for police departments that don't need high-speed pursuit, but do need to save every tax dollar possible from fuel costs.

The ones available, such as VW are still struggling to get past 100 h.p. and coinsigned to slow lane. What we need is high performance diesel cars such as Beemer.

VW essentially kept a single model of their TDI engine in the USA because there wasn't a huge demand for diesel. It's expensive to emissions certify all different kinds of engines, so why not keep a single model available - and make it a thrifty model for people who primarily want to save on fuel costs?

Also, a Beemer (Beamer) is a BMW motorcycle. For the cars, you mean to say Bimmer. The distinction is really only for enthusiasts, though.

 

[gottdi]

Despite what lots of naysayers say, automakers can't make what won't sell.

Whatcha mean can't make what won't sell. They have loads of them already in Europe. All of them. Even Kia. Damn I wish my Kia had a diesel. Should have been available as a truck classification. And the Euro no turbo Diesel Sportage gets 40+ mpg. They have them and they can push the diesel here as many states allow all diesels to be sold. California is not the only place. If they push it they will be sold here. The demand is for sure here but if they never push it all will conside that we won't get them and go buy a gasser which pushes the gassers here and keeps them here. Grrrrrrrr! Damit! I wish they would get off there butts and make it happen. Would be a very good money making market here now that fuel prices are way up. I'm ready to open a dealer ship to sell all diesels.

 

[RedBenz83]

California as in "CARB" has screwed themselves with the way the regulate that I hope they NEVER get another diesel engine sold in that state...sadly the "BLUETEC" will be a 50 state compliant diesel

DB

Just because our noble-intending but hopelessly-misguided Air Resource Board couldn't make a fair and logical decision to save its life doesn't mean that we, the very taxpayers that underwrite their green-lobby-drafted and downright-Orwellian laws should suffer. Of course, at the rate the cost of living here is climbing I'm seriously doubting I'll be sticking around once I finish school and find a "real" job... But still, give us poor diesel-embargoed saps a break, 'kay?

 

[Sharkonwheels]

Whatcha mean can't make what won't sell. They have loads of them already in Europe. All of them. Even Kia. Damn I wish my Kia had a diesel. Should have been available as a truck classification. And the Euro no turbo Diesel Sportage gets 40+ mpg. They have them and they can push the diesel here as many states allow all diesels to be sold. California is not the only place. If they push it they will be sold here. The demand is for sure here but if they never push it all will conside that we won't get them and go buy a gasser which pushes the gassers here and keeps them here. Grrrrrrrr! Damit! I wish they would get off there butts and make it happen. Would be a very good money making market here now that fuel prices are way up. I'm ready to open a dealer ship to sell all diesels.

Yeah - I strongly disagree with that statement as well.
Here in S. Florida, the VW dealers can't even keep new TDI's in stock for more than a couple weeks. Don't even mention used units, especially advertised ones. They are gone in a snap! And this has been a trend for at least 1.5-2 years now.

Esserman VW, International VW, Vista VW, South VW, Gunther VW - all have the same story. Most are charging over MSRP, and actually getting it.

Me? I was one of those dopes that bought a V8 pickup truck. 2005 Toyota Tundra V8 TRD 4x4. Nice ride - but at a price - 12-14mpg on a GOOD day.

T

 

[cptmox]

Just because our noble-intending but hopelessly-misguided Air Resource Board couldn't make a fair and logical decision to save its life doesn't mean that we, the very taxpayers that underwrite their green-lobby-drafted and downright-Orwellian laws should suffer.

That is a great description of the CARB folks, but I think you should be made to suffer. You (and I say you not really meaning you, because you and other CA TDI-clubbers are "the choir") voted in the deep thinkers who came up with those laws, and now our country is adopting the Peoples Republic of CARB's shiite as doctrine.

That was a pretty hateful rant. I think I'll take a break, grab a cold Shiner Bock, and sit in the hottub.

 

[jdorff]

California as in "CARB" has screwed themselves with the way the regulate that I hope they NEVER get another diesel engine sold in that state...sadly the "BLUETEC" will be a 50 state compliant diesel

Actually, the new Benz will be 45-state at least to start. EPA being rather slow with the whole urea system. More here: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/e320_bluetec_ar.html

 

[BillsTDI]

9/2/06
What good is the ultra low sulpher diesel when no new diesel cars are permitted for sale here in California. Also, we are not seeing any wide selection of diesel cars in USA compared to Europe. The ones available, such as VW are still struggling to get past 100 h.p. and coinsigned to slow lane. What we need is high performance diesel cars such as Beemer.

It is about the torque not the HP. High performance is exactly what we don't need! Most TDI drivers (at least in the USA) are looking for high mpg. I don't know what to tell you about CA not allowing new diesels. That's a state government issue. Perhaps the air pollution issues in CA are a result of all the high perfromance gas cars? Or, as often is the case, it was a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Matheo]

Can't wait till Honda brings out a screamer diesel.

Honda has a Diesel Car slotted for release in 2009... you can bet it'll be the most technologically advanced little diesel engine Japan has ever seen... and that the kids burning Ultra Low Sulpher Rice will mod the hell out of them

I'll bet they're looking for inroads into the European market more than US, but with ULSD we'll probably see it across the pond, too.

 

[Beeble]

Well, now that the "People's Republic of CARB" has been invoked five or six times, it should only take another couple of posts for comparisons with Nazis to pop up, and then the thread is dead.

Can we go back to talking about the Morning Marketplace Report, please?

Clean diesel is a good thing and environmental regulations are a good thing. How would you like to live in LA in the 1970s? How would you like to live there now, if air quality had continued to degrade, rather than improve? While CARB has made some dumb decisions (like allowing diesel F-350s while restricting diesel autos), they have also gotten results.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people with F-350s they can't afford to fuel. The vast majority had no need for such a vehicle and there was plenty of information available that it was a bad choice for a one- or two-person run-around-town vehicle. They should buy a TDI as soon as possible and count themselves lucky if they can find one.

I love my 100HP TDI. It will go at least 120 mph in whatever lane is clear. It burns HSD, LSD, ULSD or BioD gleefully. If Honda or Toyota come out with a diesel, I'll look at them (when our two TDIs wear out in, say, ten years). But I hope they're very successful in any case. By that time, we hope diesels will be permitted in all 50 states.

 

[no-blue-screen]

I have said it a million times and I will say it again. I have a CRD & a TDI and I love them both. What I would like to see is a Diesel power Minivan that gets 30+ mpg, a similar small/midsize pickup, and a Diesel powered convertible roadster

 

[Tin Man]

The article "ain't that great" with the following jab at all diesels:

"JERRY MARTIN: Industry in the U.S. and the world really is dominated and run by diesel fuel so we can't ban it. But we try to do everything we possibly can to reduce its effect on public health."

No mention of gasoline vehicles spewing out the same bad stuff (small particulates) as diesels do, and in much greater numbers. Ignorance must be bliss.

Of course, helping old large truck diesels burn safer fuel is an improvement. Nonetheless, diesel bashing continues.

TM

 

[MrMopar]

Honda has a Diesel Car slotted for release in 2009... you can bet it'll be the most technologically advanced little diesel engine Japan has ever seen... and that the kids burning Ultra Low Sulpher Rice will mod the hell out of them

I'll bet they're looking for inroads into the European market more than US, but with ULSD we'll probably see it across the pond, too.

I hope that Honda gets the displacement and price for this diesel engine down. I want to see a Honda Fit diesel. Base price for the Fit Sport is about $15k, so say $16,700 or so for a 5-speed 50-something MPG Fit diesel? Sounds appealing.

 

[no-blue-screen]

how about 60+ mpg for a honda fit...with a small three cylinder turbo d

 

[MrErlo]

BioD Hybrid

why not even make it a hybrid? i was discussing that with someone the other day... is it even possible to make a diesel hybrid? seems like if they can do it with gas, they should be able to do it with diesel. a BioD Hybrid... that's my dream.

 

[no-blue-screen]

why not even make it a hybrid? i was discussing that with someone the other day... is it even possible to make a diesel hybrid? seems like if they can do it with gas, they should be able to do it with diesel. a BioD Hybrid... that's my dream.

Hybrids are ash backwards if you ask me. Why not have a Diesel hybrid that has a large electric motor, and a small single cylinder Diesel engine to recharge the batteries and generate power. Seems to me that would be much more efficient.

 

[alphaseinor]

I wouldn't mind the 1L one by VW, but I don't think they'll bring it on... let alone here in the states

 

[RedBenz83]

Well, now that the "People's Republic of CARB" has been invoked five or six times, it should only take another couple of posts for comparisons with Nazis to pop up, and then the thread is dead.

Sorry to drag that up, I guess I just needed to vent.

Clean diesel is a good thing and environmental regulations are a good thing. How would you like to live in LA in the 1970s? How would you like to live there now, if air quality had continued to degrade, rather than improve? While CARB has made some dumb decisions (like allowing diesel F-350s while restricting diesel autos), they have also gotten results.

No argument here, but we can agree that all the power granted to them has, if nothing else, gone to their heads (Remember their pie-in-the-sky ZEV mandate?). A prime example is this ridiculous law that essentially makes it illegal to keep an emergency stash of fuel on your own private property to fill your vehicle or vehicles in case of some catastrophe. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Anyone who believes you can't have too much of a good thing has probably never had his clever and usually money-saving plan thwarted by these closed-minded idealogues who apparently refuse to listen to any expert whose ideas conflict with their agendas and who seem to have no problem flushing many of the fundamental economic and personal freedoms this country prides itself on down the crapper in exchange for little, if any, tangible benefit for the planet's health.

I love my 100HP TDI. It will go at least 120 mph in whatever lane is clear. It burns HSD, LSD, ULSD or BioD gleefully. If Honda or Toyota come out with a diesel, I'll look at them (when our two TDIs wear out in, say, ten years). But I hope they're very successful in any case. By that time, we hope diesels will be permitted in all 50 states.

Hopefully that will be the case, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if, come 2008 or '09, CARB all of a sudden mandated that no new vehicle can be sold with a compression ignition engine or some other BS rule that clearly and unfairly targets diesels. And the worst part is that 99.999% of Californians would regurgitate the propaganda that greenie organizations continue to spit out even as innovations in diesel emissions reduction seem to be announced on a weekly basis and greet such a law with a collective "Good riddance." Like I said, hopefully it won't come to that and, if it does, I will hopefully be living in a non-CARB state.

 

[DRbillZ]

LSD and ULSD

In an effort to clarify (again)
1)Low Sulfur Diesel(LSD.......no relation as far as I know) and
2)ULSD (ULTRA Low Sulfur Diesel).

What we are burning now is LSD(don't confuse the issue). It can be run in all diesel vehicles ever imported into the USA until now.

ULSD will be coming (and may already be here in some places). Newer diesels (COMING) can ONLY run the ULSD. All other diesel vehicles can use it also.

The only thing that can't happen is a car that is made to use ULSD can't use any other diesel fuel or the particle traps will get messed up.

Don't make this more confusing than it has to be.

 

[MrMopar]

A prime example is this ridiculous law that essentially makes it illegal to keep an emergency stash of fuel on your own private property to fill your vehicle or vehicles in case of some catastrophe.

CARB has good intentions with that law. Raw gasoline venting to the atmosphere is the worst possible pollutant - the vapor forms almost directly into smog with little effort. Newer vehicles have venting systems on the gasoline fuel tanks that include a charcoal canister so that the VOC emissions are trapped and latter burnt in the engine. Gasoline stations can be regulated to control their VOC emissions through underground tank venting systems, and vapor recovery nozzles at the pumps (those rubber boots around the gas nozzles at some stations).

Home storage of gasoline is a problem because no one has storage tanks that capture the VOCs that are released. Everyone has those plastic storage tanks that sit in garages and sheds, and with temperature changes throughout the day they just sit there and burp vapors out all the time. Some of them are kinda air tight, but a lot aren't. That means if millions of peole have a few gallons of gasoline stored at home that is emitting VOCs, that's the equivilant pollution of millions of cars on the road.

The practical side of this law is that it is about *impossible* to enforce. Keep what fuel you want at your house without worrying, but keep in mind what it does to the atmosphere if it's not stored in an air-tight container.

 

[Windjammer]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people with F-350s they can't afford to fuel. The vast majority had no need for such a vehicle....

There is always someone who knows what others need & don't need as the case may be. Maybe you don't NEED to do 120mph with someone else in your car. Why is it that folks worry about what others need? How do you know what they need?

 

[MrErlo]

stupid Fufu

How do you know what they need?

i can say with 100% certainty that NO house wife NEEDS a Hummer2 to drive from her 4,000 sq ft house in the suburbs to the day spa, and then to pick up Fufu the poodle from the pet groomers.

 

[Tin Man]

i can say with 100% certainty that NO house wife NEEDS a Hummer2 to drive from her 4,000 sq ft house in the suburbs to the day spa, and then to pick up Fufu the poodle from the pet groomers.

But she certainly has a RIGHT to. Something that is beyond comprehension to some social engineers on this list.

If I was Emperor, I would make it harder for people to waste resources, yes, but I would also outlaw stupidity, and it would include those that think they know better than everyone else.

TM