CJ-4 oil data and discussion repository

[TornadoRed]

Folks,

Should I be concerned about the difference in flash point of D1 ESP (249*C) vs. that of Amsoil DEO (226*C)? (I recently changed from D1 ESP to Amsoil DEO)

Seems most are around 220*C to 230*C, which the exception of D1 ESP and Redline.

Whatever you used before the ESP, probably had a 220°-230° flashpoint. Were you concerned then?

 

[Bob_Fout]

Whatever you used before the ESP, probably had a 220°-230° flashpoint. Were you concerned then?

I used CI-4+ TDT prior to D1 ESP.

I was not concerned then as I had dinky nozzles. Now I have decent ones (fuel decreased some to lessen smoke), but with a turbo upgrade in the near future, it's gonna be dumpin the fuel in when driver request goes to 100%.

 

[rcracer]

...it's gonna be dumpin the fuel in when driver request goes to 100% .

dumpin' fuel

 

[whitedog]

I didn't see a VOA for the M1TDT CJ-4 here. Did I miss it? I'm also going to go looking for a VOA M1TDT CI-4.

 

[Bob_Fout]

I didn't see a VOA for the M1TDT CJ-4 here. Did I miss it? I'm also going to go looking for a VOA M1TDT CI-4.

Dog, I have not seen a VOA of CJ-4 or CI-4+ TDT here. BITOG though might have one, or somewhere else on the forums.

 

[velociT]

I'd thought about doing VOA of CI-4+ TDT, D1 ESP CJ-4 and CJ-4 TDT, but I've been busy, and haven't found any CJ-4 TDT yet.

I can't find any Delvac 1 ESP to save my life.

What did you pay for D1 ESP in the gallon?

 

[Bob_Fout]

I can't find any Delvac 1 ESP to save my life.

What did you pay for D1 ESP in the gallon?

This was a year ago or so that I bought it. Was $26/gallon plus tax.

If you want a group IV CJ-4 5w40 you can try Amsoil DEO, or Redline 5w40 for a group V. I'm not sure if Schaeffer is Group III, IV or V.

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

So,if it's okay, I'm going to jump in and ask a couple questions. I think that this thread is kinda cool because, after 5 years, I'm kinda getting bored with the whole "must buy only VW-branded fluids" thing. (Perhaps we need to start a similar thread for coolant, lol.)

First off, is there some thread here or an external link to some sort of guide as to what all of these numbers on these UOA's really mean? Some sort of guide for analyzing the analysis?

Second, I've noticed a few people mention using Amsoil DEO 5-40. Amsoil also markets a "European Car Formula" (AFL) which I have used for one OCI in my car. What is the difference and why are people here running DEO in lieu of AFQ?

Third, I noticed that there is a link to the Valvoline "Cummins Rated" 5-40 synthetic. Does anyone have any comment on this? I used it once, about 3 years ago. I noticed a drop in fuel economy. The engine didn't puke or anything but I've never used it since. I think that the reason I ditched it was it seemed more appropriate for big rigs. (It doesn't meet a single ACEA standard, either as virtually ALL of it's standards are for bigger engines.) I was in NAPA today and noticed that it was just under $18 a gallon.

I continue to search for a non-dealer, non-mail order, oil for my car, and preferable at a reasonable price. To date, all that I have found is Amsoil and that Valvoline stuff. (I just found lubrimolly 5-40 505 approved for $10/qt-kind pricey-as much as the Amsoil.)

 

[TornadoRed]

First off, is there some thread here or an external link to some sort of guide as to what all of these numbers on these UOA's really mean? Some sort of guide for analyzing the analysis?

Most everything you need to know is in this PDF file:
http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf

Second, I've noticed a few people mention using Amsoil DEO 5-40. Amsoil also markets a "European Car Formula" (AFL) which I have used for one OCI in my car. What is the difference and why are people here running DEO in lieu of AFQ?

I think if you look at the specs for each one, you'll find that the DEO is a bit more robust... even the CJ-4 version.

Third, I noticed that there is a link to the Valvoline "Cummins Rated" 5-40 synthetic. Does anyone have any comment on this? I used it once, about 3 years ago. I noticed a drop in fuel economy. The engine didn't puke or anything but I've never used it since. I think that the reason I ditched it was it seemed more appropriate for big rigs. (It doesn't meet a single ACEA standard, either as virtually ALL of it's standards are for bigger engines.) I was in NAPA today and noticed that it was just under $18 a gallon.

If you're talking about Premium Blue Extreme 5w40, then it meets the API specs for 2003-and-earlier TDIs.

I am not a big fan of any Valvoline oil. I would keep looking for a Mobil, Shell, or Chevron 5w40 oil.

 

[Bob_Fout]

FLAK, PM me for details about DEO vs. AFL.

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

Most everything you need to know is in this PDF file:
http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf

Excellent. Thanks so much.

I think if you look at the specs for each one, you'll find that the DEO is a bit more robust... even the CJ-4 version.

I guess that require me to understand the UOA's better.

If you're talking about Premium Blue Extreme 5w40, then it meets the API specs for 2003-and-earlier TDIs.

Probably the same stuff. I bought it on the basis of it meeting CJ-4 after reading the "what oil do I use sticky." It was when I was a very new member here.

I am not a big fan of any Valvoline oil. I would keep looking for a Mobil, Shell, or Chevron 5w40 oil.

Really? Chevron? REALLY? My only knowledge of Chevron Delo products comes from my short time at the school bus garage where, by everyone's assertion, it's simply a slop-n-go bulk oil bought for the convenience of the 500 gal tanks it comes in. We literally change it every 3k miles. Of course this is a 15-40 oil going into Cat engines, not what's mentioned here.

 

[Revolutionary_mind]

If you look way back, there was a guy here who had failed cam/lifters using amsoil AFL. So of course people questioned its "true 505.01" capabilities haha.

 

[Bob_Fout]

If you look way back, there was a guy here who had failed cam/lifters using amsoil AFL. So of course people questioned its "true 505.01" capabilities haha.

IIRC, he was using AFL *before* it was reformulated for 505.01. He used it anyways in his PD.

 

[TornadoRed]

Most everything you need to know is in this PDF file:
http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf

Excellent. Thanks so much.

I just looked at the PDF linked and it is not the same as the one that used to be at the Oil Analyzers website before. The old file was short and simple and more informative.

Let's see if this won't work better:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Oil_Analyzers_Guide.pdf

Regarding Chevron 5w40... I am not recommending it, I've never used it. I'm only suggesting that it might be available in your neck of the woods. And of course I'm only referring to synthetics, not bulk conventional oils.

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

IIRC, he was using AFL *before* it was reformulated for 505.01. He used it anyways in his PD.

I didn't think that AFL was 505.01 equivalent (or "meets or exceeds") even now. I thought it was always a 505.00 only, ALH engine only oil.

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

I just looked at the PDF linked and it is not the same as the one that used to be at the Oil Analyzers website before. The old file was short and simple and more informative.

Let's see if this won't work better:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Oil_Analyzers_Guide.pdf

Oh yes, the charts are the same (which are adequate, but the descriptions seem composed a little better. (This based on a cursory perusal.)

...it might be available in your neck of the woods. And of course I'm only referring to synthetics, not bulk conventional oils.

My neck of the woods. That's funny. There's nothing up here BUT woods.

I can go to the dealership, which is what I've usually done. I can go to some stranger's house in the middle of the night to buy Amsoil. (It's like buying moonshine or something lol) And now I find that I can buy Valvoline or Lubrimolly at napa. Of course Mal warts once had the Shell rotella T and once they had a Quaker State Syn Power or Q Power??? that was a synthetic 5-40. I can't find any Mobil 1 5-40 anywhere.

I'd like to find something in the price rannge of that valvoline (~$18/gal) but if I have to keep paying $9-$10/L to make sure that i'm buying a quality product, I'll just keep biting the bullet Obviously, "the times they are a changin'" I'd mail order but the shipping would be as much as the product.

 

[TornadoRed]

I didn't think that AFL was 505.01 equivalent (or "meets or exceeds") even now. I thought it was always a 505.00 only, ALH engine only oil.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx

505.01. Also ACEA A3/B4-04 and ACEA C3

I think there is a special sticky thread for Amsoil discussions, if you want to learn more. But DEO is a stronger, better engine oil for diesel engines.

 

[TornadoRed]

I can go to the dealership, which is what I've usually done. I can go to some stranger's house in the middle of the night to buy Amsoil. (It's like buying moonshine or something lol) And now I find that I can buy Valvoline or Lubrimolly at napa. Of course Mal warts once had the Shell rotella T and once they had a Quaker State Syn Power or Q Power??? that was a synthetic 5-40. I can't find any Mobil 1 5-40 anywhere.

I'd like to find something in the price rannge of that valvoline (~$18/gal) but if I have to keep paying $9-$10/L to make sure that i'm buying a quality product, I'll just keep biting the bullet Obviously, "the times they are a changin'" I'd mail order but the shipping would be as much as the product.

How much is the Lubro-Moly? I'd go with that, I think, unless it was super-expensive. Otherwise, if Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme (5w40) was all I could get, I'd use it and not worry. My own personal antipathy toward Valvoline is not based on any objective criteria.

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

How much is the Lubro-Moly? I'd go with that, I think, unless it was super-expensive. Otherwise, if Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme (5w40) was all I could get, I'd use it and not worry. My own personal antipathy toward Valvoline is not based on any objective criteria.

The lubri-molly was 9.99/L, same as the AFL. The Syntec at the stealership is about $6.87/L. Well, it was on 12/31/07, the last time I bought it. I have no idea the cost now.) Perhaps my target of $4-5/L is a pipe dream. Lately, I've come to miss my $20 oil changes on my Blazer lol.

Although, I drive so little now, I wonder if it should matter at all. My last oil change was with AFL on 5/31/08. I've driven 5400 miles since then. I'm actually trying to decide if I should change at 10 months or some other calendar specified interval.

Ya know, I started to read that Amsoil sticky, but, it appeared to be born out of the typical pro vs anti bashing so I skipped it. Is there really anything useful in there?

 

[Bob_Fout]

FLAK, I can answer your questions on Yahoo chat.

 

[d-man]

Has anyone used the Duron E 10W-40, I was checking the spec and it has a lower viscosity of a 5W with the Flash point of a 10W. of course its CJ-4

 

[TornadoRed]

Has anyone used the Duron E 10W-40, I was checking the spec and it has a lower viscosity of a 5W with the Flash point of a 10W. of course its CJ-4

I was not familiar with the Duron-E HDEO's, but the 0w40 and 10w40 both seem to be worth a look. The 10w40 looks really robust, but I would be concerned about cold starts in below-freezing temperatures.

After a look at the Duron-E 0w40 and 10w40, and the Duron 5w40, I still think the 5w40 is the better all-season choice. But if you drive enough miles to justify changing viscosities between summer and winter, you might run the Duron-E 10w40 in the summer and the 0w40 or 5w40 in the winter.

Edit: here are links to the three viscosities of Duron:
0w40 http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/resource/download.aspx?type=TechData&iproduct=2138&language=en
5w40 http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/resource/download.aspx?type=TechData&iproduct=180&language=en
10w40 http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/resource/download.aspx?type=TechData&iproduct=176&language=en


You have other excellent choices in Alberta, including the Esso XD-3 0w40, or UFA Polar Plus 0w40 (same as XD-3).

 

[TornadoRed]

Although, I drive so little now, I wonder if it should matter at all. My last oil change was with AFL on 5/31/08. I've driven 5400 miles since then. I'm actually trying to decide if I should change at 10 months or some other calendar specified interval.

If you are able to drive enough to get the engine hot, hot enough to boil off any condensation in the oil, then you should be able to stick with the 10k-mile OCI -- even if this means going more than one year between oil changes. After 5400 miles the oil is still good, it just might have collected some moisture. Get rid of that and you'll be okay, I think.

 

[FL2AK-tdi]

If you are able to drive enough to get the engine hot, hot enough to boil off any condensation in the oil, then you should be able to stick with the 10k-mile OCI -- even if this means going more than one year between oil changes. After 5400 miles the oil is still good, it just might have collected some moisture. Get rid of that and you'll be okay, I think.

Seems like lately the car has been in the garage or plged in. It's 7 miles to work, about hte same to school. Except when it's super cold (like zero) I can usually get it to full operating temp for at least the last mile or so. Is that long enough?

 

[TornadoRed]

Seems like lately the car has been in the garage or plged in. It's 7 miles to work, about hte same to school. Except when it's super cold (like zero) I can usually get it to full operating temp for at least the last mile or so. Is that long enough?

Once or twice a month, it needs roughly 30 miles or 30 minutes at normal operating temperatures.

 

[d-man]

Just looking up the specs for the XD-3 0W-40,15W-40 the flash point is lower (215C) then needed. From what I have learned the flash point needs at least 220C. This has to deal with the location of the piston rings on the PD which is quite higher to the top of the piston giving higher temps. I don't know anymore. I'm sure they are all good, How exacting are these Rating tests anyway. Can a 5C difference really be noticed, what if relative humidity, atmospheric pressure, starting ambient air temp were different. All I know is I want to do my best to reduce the chance of cam lob failure. as for how I do not care

 

[TornadoRed]

d-man: you raise a good point, and the low flash point could be an issue with this one, which is reputably an excellent full-synthetic in all other respects.

The Duron is probably Group III like Shell Rotella T, which has a flash point of 224°C; the Duron 0w40 and 5w40 have flash points of 219° and 221°, the 10w40 is much higher.

But what flash point really is required? I'm not sure if I've ever seen a minimum number. I think I would be concerned by anything around 207°C or less, and would avoid anything like that.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Redline finally updated their website with the latest oil product data. Previously the information had been posted on BITOG from e-mails with Dave at Redline.

http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf

 

[d-man]

Just reading about the new oils and the lack of Zinc lubricant that reduces wear and oxidation. Luckily though the Duron E line of lubricants has ZDDP added. The concentration is 10%.

 

[whitedog]

I just got back the VOA samples from Blackstone on Mobil 1 TDT CJ-4 and CI-4. I have the PDF on my pictures page if you want to see the whole report, but here are the significant numbers:

CJ-4:
Calcium: 938
Magnesium: 714
Phosphorus: 856
Zinc: 991

TBN: 10.9

CI-4:

Calcium: 1613
Magnesium: 511
Phosphorus: 927
Zinc: 1072

TBN: 12.8

Comments? Questions? Suggestions?

I also sent in VOA to Stavely from these same bottles and am awaiting the results.