CJ-4 oil data and discussion repository

Bob_Fout

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In light of two more big boys in the world of lubricants coming out with synthetic 5w40 CJ-4 oils, time to aggregate data and links to other info (like UOAs).

Thread purpose: Be THE repository for CJ-4 oil data and discussion as it applies to TDIs. Be the one thread for folks pondering/thinking about/confused/curious or just nosy about CJ-4.

Here's the data I've collected so far:


Discuss!
 
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Bob_Fout

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POWERSTROKE said:
I have used Delvac since 98. Not sure what kind of data you are looking for, but I have to date had zero oil related problems.
The Delvac you used probably isn't CJ-4:p
 

AndyH

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CJ-4 Tech Info...

...from the folks that make the additive packages for most of the subject oils.

http://www.lubrizol.com/CJ-4/default.asp

http://www.lubrizol.com/CJ-4/faq.asp

CJ-4 Specification — Protection. Simplicity. Proven Performance.

Frequently Asked Questions

Who developed CJ-4?

API CJ-4 was developed on behalf of the American Petroleum Institute (API) by the Heavy-Duty Engine Oil Classification Panel of ASTM International, one of the world’s largest voluntary standards-development organizations. The panel included representatives of engine manufacturers, oil companies and additive suppliers.
Why is API CJ-4 required?

It is driven by the EPA’s On-Highway 2007 Exhaust Emissions Standards that require major reductions in nitrogen oxide (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) for 2007 model year trucks.
When does CJ-4 go into effect?

The ASTM Heavy-Duty Engine Oil Classification Panel approved the standard in January 2006. API is expected to license CJ-4 products by October 2006. This timing coincides with the legislated introduction of ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel – 15 ppm maximum) for the on-highway market, as well as the early production of EPA 2007-compliant engine hardware outfitted with exhaust aftertreatment technology.
How does API CJ-4 differ from API CI-4 and CI-4 Plus?

Performance tests for API CJ-4 are a combination of existing CI-4-Plus, CI-4 and CH-4 engine tests using today’s fuel (500 PPM S) as well as new engine tests using ultra low sulfur diesel fuel (ULSD = 15 PPM) that is mandated for on-road use. API CJ-4 represents a major performance upgrade over CI-4 Plus in terms of emissions control system durability as well as additional protection in terms of valve train wear, piston deposit control and soot handling capabilities over the previous categories. It also improves oil consumption characteristics and protection against bearing corrosion. Maximum chemical limits on sulfated ash (SA), Phosphorus (P) and Sulfur (S) for API CJ-4 lubricants have been set to address the emissions system compatibility and durability.
Are CJ-4 oils backward compatible?

Backward compatibility was a CJ-4 design requirement. This criteria was met, and it will be stated in the API user language.
When will the new formulations be on the market?

API is expected to license CJ-4 products by October 2006, and the products will be on the market soon after that.
What are the chemical limits for API CJ-4 and how do they compare to the previous API categories?

CJ-4 lubricants will need to be formulated to be less than 1.0% ash, 0.4% sulfur, and 0.12% phosphorus. These restrictions enable the use of exhaust aftertreatment devices such as diesel particulate filters (DPFs) and diesel oxidation catalysts (DOCs) that can be negatively affected by chemicals found in the lubricating oil. The following table illustrates the differences between CJ-4 and CI-4 typical lubes.
API CJ-4 Limits API CI-4 ASH1.0%1.2 ~ 1.5% S0.4%No Limit P0.12%0.14%Volatility13%15%What are the implications of formulating CJ-4 oils with the new chemical restrictions?

Sulfur limit of 0.4% minimizes the possibility to use higher sulfur Group I stocks. Reduction in sulfated ash directly reduces allowable detergent TBN levels that may affect marketing claims and potentially reduced oil drain intervals, assuming all other factors remain the same.
If a fleet includes both 2007 vehicles and older vehicles, will both CJ-4 and CI-4/CI-4 PLUS oils need to be stocked?

Although fleet operators may choose to stock both oils, the expected backward compatibility of CJ-4 allows its use in older vehicles as well as 2007 vehicles. However, it is recommended that the oil analysis be closely monitored and the appropriate maintenance schedule be maintained based on lubricant quality.
What are the main engine tests for API CJ-4?

Engine Test Measured Parameters Fuel Sulfur ContentComments500PPM15PPMCAT C-13 Oil consumption and piston depsoit control, iron piston. XNew test, with closed crankcase ventiliation CAT 1P Oil consumption and piston deposit control, iron piston. X Steel piston, depends C13 matrix results CAT 1N Oil consumption and piston deposit control, aluminum piston. X Al piston (DDC, JD, Nav), depends C13 matrix results Cummins ISM HT sludge, soot-related wear, filter plug X Replaces M11 EGR Cummins ISBValve train wear XNew test Mack T-11 Soot-related viscosity control X Replace T8-e Mack T-12 Ring/linear wear, bearing corrosion XNew test GMRFWTSoot-related wear X Status quo Navistar 7.3 L AerationX Status quo How does Lubrizol foresee the U.S. market transitioning to API CJ-4?

Lubrizol forecasts a fairly slow transition as this category is a function of a new requirement for engines starting from zero on January 1, 2007. Industry experts forecast 2007 Class 8 sales to be app. 220,000 units. This will be a very small percentage of the licensed vehicle market, which may result in an overall slower transition.
How long will it be before CI-4/CI-4 PLUS oils are phased out?

It is currently anticipated that CI-4/CI-4 PLUS products will remain on the market until at least 2010.
What will happen if CI-4/CI-4 PLUS oil is used in an EPA 2007-compliant engine?

Because these oils contain higher levels of sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur (SAPS), they may cause increased plugging problems in the diesel particulate filters and reduce their efficiency, possibly resulting in engine damage and voiding the manufacturer’s warranty. It is strongly recommended that the manufacturer’s recommendation to use CJ-4 oils in EPA 2007-compliant engines be followed.
Does CJ-4 apply to off-highway vehicles?

No. The standard applies only to lubricants used in on-highway vehicles beginning with model year 2007.
What can our customers expect by adopting Lubrizol’s API CJ-4 technology?

Protection, Simplicity and Proven Performance
Protection – dialed in soot and wear performance provides needed protection as proven by extensive engine and field testing showing excellent performance in terms of backward compatibility.
Simplicity – by maximizing the flexibility for forward and backward compatibility with linkage to a core DI and single OCP VM.
Proven Performance – since the technology is built upon LZ4998 technology with over a billion miles of field testing of PC-10 technology, as well as global OEM coverage.
 

HopefulFred

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Just did the boss's first change on his new ('08) 6.4L Powerstroke. We had to send a case of oil back to the parts guys when they sent CI-4 in stead of CJ-4. I suppose it will take a while for people to realize there is a difference. Anyone know anything about Motocraft's SuperDuty 15w40? (Obviously it is the wrong viscocity and won't be 507.00 approved... though it does seem that there is a 10w30 and 10w40 based on results from OilGuy's link) Sounds like CJ-4 oils will mostly be "true synthetics" (group IV?), is that true? It's not on wjdell's list, just because it doesn't look like it will be TDI-ready or some other reason?
 

wjdell

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you found a group IV 15W40 CJ4 - that would be a first - send me a link and I will add it to the list
 

HopefulFred

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Sorry, that's what I am asking. Is the SuperDuty oil group IV?
This is what I get from http://www.motorcraft.com/products.do?item=15

SAE 15W-40 Super Duty Diesel Motor Oil

- Versatile for all-season performance to temperatures as low as 20 degrees Fahrenheit (-7 degrees Celsius)
- Meets API Performance Category CJ-4/SM
- Low ash formulation designed for conventional and turbocharged diesel engines using ultralow sulfur diesel fuel
- Minimizes foaming
- Fights sludge, varnish, rust, corrosion and wear
- Recommended for use in 7.3L/6.0L/6.4L Power Stroke® diesel engines
- Suitable for powershift applications requiring Allison C-4 fluid

I suspect there are plenty of reasons you wouldn't want this in a TDI, but until we find out more, I wouldn't want to say.

Edit: I should have read the whole page first. From page linked above: Motorcraft® oils are made with the finest base oils and refined using a revolutionary process known as "hydrocracking". I get the chemistry confused but doesn't that imply it's group III?
 
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wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
It does not say synthetic so I suspect that particular oil is a blend. Also if it was pure syn it would have a lower rating - not 20F.
 

fitzski

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Ottawa
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Uh... hmm... Well, none...
Has anyone seen a VOA for Delvac 1 ESP? I've been lookin'... nothing at BITOG. I don't mind doing one... but if there's one already posted somewhere...
 

Bob_Fout

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fitzski said:
Has anyone seen a VOA for Delvac 1 ESP? I've been lookin'... nothing at BITOG. I don't mind doing one... but if there's one already posted somewhere...
I'd thought about doing VOA of CI-4+ TDT, D1 ESP CJ-4 and CJ-4 TDT, but I've been busy, and haven't found any CJ-4 TDT yet.
 

fitzski

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Uh... hmm... Well, none...
Bob_Fout said:
I'd thought about doing VOA of CI-4+ TDT, D1 ESP CJ-4 and CJ-4 TDT, but I've been busy, and haven't found any CJ-4 TDT yet.
Well... I'll do the D1 ESP CJ-4, then, since I have plenty of it (bought a case-and-a-half for two changes in the W8), and I'll want the VOA results in hand when I get my first UOA back.
 

Bob_Fout

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D1 ESP CJ-4 5w40 in a gasser W8?

Why not M1 ESP 507.00 5w30? It meets the VAG gasser specs.
 

fitzski

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Uh... hmm... Well, none...
Bob_Fout said:
D1 ESP CJ-4 5w40 in a gasser W8?

Why not M1 ESP 507.00 5w30? It meets the VAG gasser specs.
Availability... even though I got my supply at an Imperial (Mobil) Oil distribution depot, they still looked at me funny when I asked about the M1 ESP. I'm in Canada, and didn't want the hassle of cross-border ordering from AVlube. I also got it for the same price ($132/case), w/no shipping req'd; see here.

I would have preferred the M1 ESP, and still hope to track some down before the TDI is due for its next change. Besides, I think the D1 ESP CJ-4 is going to do just fine; I'll take a sample at 5k miles to be sure.
 

Bob_Fout

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FYI I saw CJ-4 Rotella T 5w40 today at wal-mart, just the gallons so far, not the quarts. Yum! $17/gal.
 

lovemybug

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Mar 11, 2007
Location
SE Wisconsin
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2002 Red Beetle
I've been using the Amsoil DEO 5W-40 since I got my car. I've put almost 50k miles on it since I got it and change the oil about every 10k miles like it says in the manual. I've not had any problems with it to date and little to no oil usage over the period between oil changes. When I had my TB done by Jason TDI this past March, he commented on how much compression the engine had when he was hand turning the engine. He said that he's seen cars with the same number of miles that had about half the compression that mine did. Just for reference, when I purchased my car, it had just under 43k miles on it. The timing belt was done at about 82k, and currently I rolled over 90k today. Not to get off track too much, but this car is the most fun to drive out of any of the previous ones I've owned. Plus the mileage is much better, too.:D :D :D :D :D
 
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HopefulFred said:
Sorry, that's what I am asking. Is the SuperDuty oil group IV?
This is what I get from http://www.motorcraft.com/products.do?item=15

SAE 15W-40 Super Duty Diesel Motor Oil

- Versatile for all-season performance to temperatures as low as 20 degrees Fahrenheit (-7 degrees Celsius)
- Meets API Performance Category CJ-4/SM
- Low ash formulation designed for conventional and turbocharged diesel engines using ultralow sulfur diesel fuel
- Minimizes foaming
- Fights sludge, varnish, rust, corrosion and wear
- Recommended for use in 7.3L/6.0L/6.4L Power Stroke® diesel engines
- Suitable for powershift applications requiring Allison C-4 fluid

I suspect there are plenty of reasons you wouldn't want this in a TDI, but until we find out more, I wouldn't want to say.

Edit: I should have read the whole page first. From page linked above: Motorcraft® oils are made with the finest base oils and refined using a revolutionary process known as "hydrocracking". I get the chemistry confused but doesn't that imply it's group III?
I honestly dont see why an oil like this would be bad for a TDI (in a hot climate)... there are a few folks here running 15w40, and PSD, duramax, cummins, and plenty of other turbo diesels run just as hot, and have perhaps more stresses due to towing and heavy duty useage. 15w40 HDEO, is tough stuff. If I didnt have a PD, I would absolutely run some good 15w40 and perform UOA on it.
 
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Drivbiwire

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Revolutionary_mind said:
I honestly dont see why an oil like this would be bad for a TDI... .






What is the maximum temperature a Group II conventional oil can handle?

Obviously the BS factor has you guys baffled, FWIW "Hydrocracking" is also known as the conversion process that produces "Conventional" oils ONLY thus resulting in usable products from Crude oil and are NOT synthetic in any respect.

This oil is a basic conventional and not even in the ballpark of a dumbed down Group III much less a Group IV PAO.

I wouldn't run that cr@p in my lawnmower much less a modern HSDI engine like the TDI!

DB
 
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I know what hydrocracking means. But, I guess all these common rail PSD duramax, cummins owners are just destroying their engines! Even the ones whose engines and turbos have much higher stress and abuse while being used as workhorses! IIRC, my friends duramax manual recommended 15w40 down to 0 degrees farenheit. Now, I totally disagree with that, I would only use 15w40 in a very warm climate.

Maybe the 2 dudes who run 15w40 in the TDI will chime in, I think they have logged a bunch of miles.
 
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Blue_Hen_TDI

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TDT CJ-4 is now available at Pep Boys in quarts for $6.49. Here's a pic of what I bought tonight:


 
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ducatiz

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DC
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Passat SEL 2012
I would love to use Mobil1 in my (new to me) '05 Golf TDI but Mobil seems to think this would be a bad idea:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Motor_Oil_for_Volkswagen_TDI_Engines.aspx

Question: What Motor Oil to Use in Volkswagen TDI Engines? I own an Independent Automotive repair center. I was reading some of your answers on VW oils and was surprised to see you don't recommend Mobil 1 for use in TDI engines. We have used it several times without realizing this. Is it not compatible at all or just that VW doesn't recommend it? Is there something special in their oil? Also, can you tell me if Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is compatible with 98-01 VW ATF? (They recommend an AE Esso type LT 71141 formula, yellow in color). I'm told that Esso is a European branch of Mobil. Thanks, Tom Janisse, Owner of Durand Mobil Service-- Tom Janisse, Durand, MI


Answer: Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is probably compatible with Esso Type LT71141 but we do not have any specific data to verify this. Mobil 1 ATF is not approved specifically for VW ATF applications. Mobil 1 0W-40 is recommended for all engines where oils meeting VW 502.00, 505.00, 503.01 specifications are recommended. Currently we do not market a product in the U.S. that meets VW 505.01 which is required in VW engines in certain VW 1.9 L TDi-PD and 5.0 L TDi-PD engines. Mobil1 0W-40 has not been tested against these requirements.

and another
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Volkswagen_TDI_Diesel.aspx
Question: Oil for Volkswagen TDI Diesel EnginesI have a new Volkswagen TDI diesel and the warranty says it must use only VW oil, which is synthetic (made by Castrol). I've used Mobil 1 in all my cars for 20 years and would like to stick with Mobil 1, Help. -- John Gaylord, Corvallis, OR
Answer: Unfortunately we do not currently have an oil in the United States for this particular application which requires VW 505.01.
Are they just out of date?

and then there is this:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/529/Audi_Approved_Oil_Chart.pdf

which lists both Mobil1 0w40 and 5w40

***?
 
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Bob_Fout

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They are correct, not out of date. Mobil doesn't make a 505.01 oil here in the US. The CJ-4 oils in this thread are for 2003 and prior TDIs.
 

TornadoRed

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Bob_Fout said:
They are correct, not out of date. Mobil doesn't make a 505.01 oil here in the US. The CJ-4 oils in this thread are for 2003 and prior TDIs.
But if you look hard enough, you can find Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30, which meets VW504.00/507.00 (and all previous specs).
 

ducatiz

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thanks folks

very frustrating with the multiple markets crud -- Ducati motorcycles all come with a "Shell Advance" sticker recommending that oil -- but Shell doesn't sell it, or any motorocycle oil in the states! erg!
 

hskrdu

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Bob- can you edit the first post to indicate how the numbers in the chart compare favorably or unfavorably? Thanks.
 

Bob_Fout

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hskrdu said:
Bob- can you edit the first post to indicate how the numbers in the chart compare favorably or unfavorably? Thanks.
Based on what criteria? IIRC no single one of them can be used to determine which oil is better. They all meet CJ-4 and are all pretty close in their properties.:p
 
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