Chipping vs. boxing?

[natescape]

Hi gang. I'm still a TDI wannabe (am gonna try to convince the wife to trade in our 2001 Subaru Forester for some sort of TDI - looking hard for a TDI Passat Wagon), so please take it easy on me if this is a stupid question.

What is the major difference between upchipping and putting in a box? Boxes seem cheaper and easier to install/remove. Am I totally off base? What are the advantages/disadvantages to each?

 

[natescape]

Anyone have any feedback on this, or is the question just too stoooopid to be replied to?

 

[hotrodtdi]

Check the search for tuning boxes and chips. the tuning box can be installed and removed quite easily where as the chip is permanently installed in the ecu and remains there. you probably will get more power from the chip, economy should stay the same depending on the leadfoot. I personally like the tb so I can remove it on demand. the tb is also adjustable. my 2 cents.

 

[NoSmoke]

Talked to a local performance shop today - they recommended a box (type not specified)and claimed a 30% increase in both HP and torque. Price was $690 (Can). The 30%, if realistic would give a HP rating of 117 which is as good as a chip as I understand it. It's quite a bit more expensive (vs the $450 for Upsoluting I have been quoted) but has the decided advantage of plugging in (& out) with no wiring mods and,with fewer warranty implications to boot.

 

[mickey]

You do realize you'll take a bath on the depreciation, right?

-mickey

p.s. I recommend an Upsolute chip or an Upsolute box. Your choice. There are a lot of boxes out there. Some good, some bad, and all kinds in between. But the Upsolute products have an excellent rep, with the customer service to back them up.

 

[jayb79]

Check out this post: http://forums.tdiclub.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001893
Its free

 

[Craig]

The chip (Upsolute) is more reliable, smoother, and gives more power than a TB. That is because the chip adjusts several engine perameters. The box fools the ECU into increasing timing and dumping more fuel. Some of the more adventurous on this board run both.

 

[NoSmoke]

"You do realize you'll take a bath on the depreciation, right?"
-mickey

I don't follow - please explain

Also, any comments on the PowerBox would be appreciated.

 

[dzcad90]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
Price was $690 (Can).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The box will give you a performance increse, no doubt. The most probable reason they suggested the box was the fact that THEY can sell you one, at the afforementioned price.

When I did it, I went with the chip. If I read into your original post correctly, your looking for a Passatt wagon. Most likely you will find one with over 50K miles, where warranty won't be a consideration. (And it's almost getting to the point even if you found one with 10K miles, it would be out of the warranty realm. It's 2001 already

)

[ May 02, 2001: Message edited by: dzcad90 ]

 

[NoSmoke]

Craig: "The chip (Upsolute) is more reliable, smoother, and gives more power than a TB. That is because the chip adjusts several engine perameters......"

Anyone know what is actually adjusted by a chip over and above fuel volume and injection timing??

 

[SkyPup]

turbo boost pressure. the fuel map and turbo maps are tweaked for more performance. There are two chips, one for the fuel map and one for the turbo map.

 

[natescape]

I could add an upsolute chip to a TDI Passat, correct? Aren't those engines 1 generation older than the latest? (Perhaps the following question should be in another topic.) If the TDI Passat is an older model engine, what kind of MPG should I expect?

 

[lrpavlo]

I bought a Passat Wagon with 110K miles. After driving it home....300 miles I chipped it with the WETT Chip. Best $ spent other than the purchase of the car! Upsolute is cheaper now but both have terrific service.
Fuel mileage for me is usually in the low to mid 40's

If you find a white wagon you don't want..will you let me know?

 

[GotDiesel?]

Laurie,

I think Mickey's depreciation bath comment was about trading in the 2001 Forester...

Chipping won't affect depreciation unless you mention it to a prospective buyer and they decide a hot-rodded TDI is worth less.

But you probably won't be able to get a chipped TDI owner to part with their car anyway.

 

[natescape]

Yeah, I know I'll eat $ on the Forester. I'm hoping to get $1k over what I owe ($19k).

First, I gotta find a TDI Wagon...

Anyone finds one in the northeast, let me know at nate@natescape.com.

 

[NoSmoke]

Thanks for the explanation SkyPup (& GotDiesel?). I'm still a little unclear however - PowerBox claims the same power increase m/l as Upsolute (as I understand it anyway) but PowerBox does not modify turbo boost. So then, how does PowerBox accomplish that? Also, one possibility that occures to me is that more smoke results with PowerBox (or the equivalents) as more fuel is introduced but with the same air (?).

BTW, drove my first TDi today (new, stock). Quite impressive - little noise or smoke and lots of low end torque. Noted only a little turbo lag. Only downside seemed to be a slight shudder at liftoff (even with moderate throtle) which the sales guy said was normal.
Also noticed the GL seats seemed not as comfortable as the GLS - was that my imagination or are the GLS seats different, other than the cloth?

Decisions, decisions - the GLS 1.8 also looks very interesting (go green or go hot??

 

[GotDiesel?]

Laurie,

When fuel approachs or exceeds $1/litre I think you'll feel better about having bought a TDI.

My TDI is quick enough for me. As it is, I seldom use all the power that's there. More would be overkill.

But it's your money...

And yes, the GLS leather seats are comfy indeed (and easier to clean, too!).

 

[speedrcr]

Go to this link to see EXACTLY what the Upsolute chip will gain in power over stock... http://forums.tdiclub.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002686

These #'s equate to 128HP and 228Torque at the crank.
The graph shows power at the wheels

 

[NoSmoke]

Something doesn't compute here though as the Upsolute data shows approx. 90 HP stock supposedly at the *wheels* while the PowerBox graph shows 90 HP stock at the crank (same # as published by VW). The Upsolute furthermore shows a HP increase of about 24% (89.6 to 111.3 at the wheels) while the PowerBox shows a 31% increase (90 to 118 at the crank). It sort of looks like one (or maybe both) of these sets of data is inaccurate. One would expect the Upsolute to show a greater percentage increase if it modifies both fuel and boost while the PowerBox only modifies fuel (as I understand it). So, what are we to make of this - it appears from the above, at least superficially, that the PowerBox is the better alternative while the concensus, as I read it at least, in this forum is that the Upsolute is the better. There must be other performance factors to be considered??

 

[Gary Miyakawa]

To get an absolute (or as absolute as possible) comparison, you would have to dyno the same car, on the same day, on the same dyno as stock, Upsolute and powerbox....

I didn't have a power box so I can't say what their numbers would be... Though, the numbers you quoted seem a bit high for "just a box".... I doubt a box will be as smooth as the chip... Especially as the weather changes (you might have to fiddle with the box to keep it at it's best)...

Maybe if we had a power box and SpeedRcr was willing to donate his car for the test... We could put it all to bed... The only thing we haven't tried on his vehicle is the Upsolute 3 pot box... We probably should try that sometime... Just to know what it does for a stocker...

Gary M

 

[NoSmoke]

Gary:

There's one other thing I don't quite understand about the Dynolab Upsolute data. It has been supposed on that threat that the numbers represent wheel measurements but surely the torque data cannot be such as torque at the wheels I would think should be at least three times the crank value due to the transmission and differential gearing. Am I missing the point here??

 

[GoFaster]

Torque on a dyno graph is always corrected for the overall drive ratio between engine and wheels.

The torque AT THE DRIVE WHEELS in first gear might be three times what it is in fourth, but if you correct it back to what the crankshaft is doing, it all cancels out.

What doesn't cancel out is the frictional losses encountered between the crankshaft and the wheels.

Be aware that VW's advertised horsepower may be quite conservative (it may actually be higher than they say it is), and the advertised horsepower of the chip and box manufacturers may ALSO be quite conservative. Reason: taxation laws depend on horsepower in some countries ... some countries require the use of upgraded tires if the top speed exceeds a certain amount ... etc.

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI mit UPsolute

 

[NoSmoke]

GoFaster said:
"Torque on a dyno graph is always corrected for the overall drive ratio between engine and wheels."

OK, that makes sense.

"Be aware that VW's advertised horsepower may be quite conservative (it may actually be higher than they say it is),.."

That may well be - my Celica has a claimed 115HP and about the same weight as the Golf (probably a little less in fact) however both the TDI and 2.0 seem notably more powerful, the TDI especially at lower speeds.

 

[NoSmoke]

natescape:

"So, do boxes or chips violate the warrantee? If they do, a box would seem better, as you can supposely remove it pretty easily. "

The easy removability is a big advantage IMO - also no downtime and no danger of potential ECU problems from someone unsoldering and replacing surface mounted chips. However, the concensus here seems to be the chips are better although I still do not understand quite why as published performance increases are very similar for both.

 

[cheech]

I'm thinking of putting a Tuningbox (from Seigerlund) onto my 115 Bora (Jetta) in a couple of months. I remember reading an article in VW Driver in the UK which stated that oil changes should be every 5000 miles when using a box. Also, the timing belot should be changed much sooner as well.

Scott.

 

[natescape]

OK, I saw a new Golf today and decided it was probably big enough for my needs. I'm also going to look at a Jetta. Any preferences out there? It's basically a commuter car that will occasionally be used for family trips (double stroller, baby gear, etc).

So, do boxes or chips violate the warrantee? If they do, a box would seem better, as you can supposely remove it pretty easily.

 

[speedrcr]

At the NC GTG last year I rode in a Golf with the TB, it didn't "feel" as strong as the chip, but a dyno would be more conclusive. A friend of mine has a 98 Grand Am with the 2.4 DOHC 4-cyl, 155HP. The Jetta is a little faster to 80, and there about the same after that. I believe the factory #'s are low, either way the graph gives a good comparison. Go find a gasser rated at 90HP and see how it feels

 

[Oli]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cheech:
I'm thinking of putting a Tuningbox (from Seigerlund) onto my 115 Bora (Jetta) in a couple of months. I remember reading an article in VW Driver in the UK which stated that oil changes should be every 5000 miles when using a box. Also, the timing belot should be changed much sooner as well.

Scott.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scott!

Sit tight, i can get you a new Power Box for your PD for only US$ 400.-, with a 3 year warranty and the EU warranty for the engine and the gear box.

Best regards
Oli
SpeedTuning US

 

[Oli]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurie Forbes:
natescape:

"So, do boxes or chips violate the warrantee? If they do, a box would seem better, as you can supposely remove it pretty easily. "

The easy removability is a big advantage IMO - also no downtime and no danger of potential ECU problems from someone unsoldering and replacing surface mounted chips. However, the concensus here seems to be the chips are better although I still do not understand quite why as published performance increases are very similar for both.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Laurie,

you seem to me to be a customer a tuner is just waiting for

Let me ask you a question, why do you think chip tuning is the better choice for the tuner (not necessarily for the customer, if you can give me the right answer i will give you a Power Box for free, only 1 answer please).
BTW i am the distributor of SpeedTuning Power Boxes here in the States and give all my friends from the the other tuning companys a hard time

Ciao
Oli
SpeedTuning US

 

[Oli]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by natescape:
Anyone have any feedback on this, or is the question just too stoooopid to be replied to?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

if your decision goes towards the Power Box check out my offer on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=591616228), a few suggestions from my side, the Power Box is more flexible (you can install and uninstall it by yourself for what ever reason), max. poweroutput is almost the same and is adjustable, if you know how to drive a TDi you will save diesel with the Power Box (drove over years with a test tuned TDi and know what i am talking), you can use it in your next TDi, it is an uncomplicated tuning, ...
And the best at last, which lookes a little bit strange (tuner would understand me) to me it is cheaper (250.-)
Don't get confused, you should always know the easier the tuning the less or no problems you will have.

Best regards
Oli
SpeedTuning US