Chevy Cruze Diesel a direct competitor to the Jetta TDI

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thebigarniedog

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There is no sense in discussing what GM paid back and who they scr*wed over and will never pay back. It is meaningless toward the current discussion. My concern with GM is that they will have a repeat performance, again souring the public on diesels. This crapola package will sputter out sales wise, will be offered as a low price lease and when that fails, the pronouncement that the public has no appetite for diesels. Just waiting for them to bring out the Volt girls to complete the curse. I blame Bob for this impending disaster ........
 

Thunderstruck

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I'm going back down today and will report my findings, assuming the engineers are still there. Got distracted reminiscing about the old diesel Chevette and forgot to ask about the pump.
 

blujett2.0

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I wonder how similar our new Cruze will be compared to the overseas versions. (Other than all the urea equipment) I came across this extensive review on the overseas version back in '09. And of course it has the manual in it.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...et-cruze-ltz-2-0-diesel-testdrive-review.html

It's interesting how they comment on the rough fit and finish. For GM's sake I hope they clean it up a bit before the release.

I'm all for more diesels and competition in the U.S. market. If anything else it'll keep VW on their toes to keep up the innovation to stay on top.
 

Thunderstruck

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I'm at the show. The people here do not know who manufactures the HPFP. they don't know if there's a 5th injector for regeneration
 

MuttonChops

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What to Do

[FONT=Cambria, serif]Been waiting on Cruze Diesel Specs for months . . . now not sure what I'll do for a replacement to the '01 Jetta TDI.[/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria, serif]Chevy going the 'loaded' model only path is a real disappoint. Been avoiding purchasing another VW TDI due to VW option restrictions and now GM is doing the same darn thing.[/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria, serif]VW Points:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Today's Jetta is uncomfortable for me, lack of head room mainly, so the Passat or Golf are only options.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Passat TDI with automatic requires Sunroof and those leather(ish) seats.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Golf is a bit on the small size.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]VW still does not have Blind-Spot-Sensors on the NA vehicles.[/FONT]
[FONT=Cambria, serif]Cruze:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Does have headroom.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Does have Blind-Spot-Sensor options (am assuming it's available on Diesel)[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Does not require Sunroof.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Does have those darn leather seats.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Has a useless spoiler and questionable 'air flow' add-ons
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Cambria, serif]Is over priced.[/FONT]
[FONT=Cambria, serif]Will have to do a bunch of trade-off thinking on this one . . really hope to purchase something this summer.[/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria, serif]P.S. Mazda Diesel sounds interesting except it's a very new engine design and Mazda did not do so well with the rotary-engine-design . . . . . can they get the diesel right?[/FONT]
 

Blackheart

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[FONT=Cambria, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Cambria, serif]P.S. Mazda Diesel sounds interesting except it's a very new engine design and Mazda did not do so well with the rotary-engine-design . . . . . can they get the diesel right?[/FONT]
I'm not sure Mazda got the Rotary wrong...it has some inherent niggles (such as fuel economy) that are a product of a rotary. To me, Diesel is easier to "get right" than a rotary. Then again, I don't claim to be an engineering expert on either.
 

Second Turbo

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Chevy sales reps being taught to say "HPFP" ?

> For those of us less educated on the ins and outs of the various pumps, is this a good or bad thing?

The core questions are:
What lubricates the pump?
Is is a bypass system, returning excess fuel to the tank?

The Botch CP4.1 used in the TDI is lubricated by the fuel, which is a marginal situation even if the fuel meets US ASTM standards, which it frequently and catastrophically does not. When it starts to fail, the filter does not protect the pump from the circulating abrasive. When it fails completely, bye bye whole fuel chain.

If the Cruze-D pump is lubricated by engine oil (or, less likely, by a dedicated system), that improves the odds of longevity by a substantial margin. As would not being bypass. As would having superior filtering. We just don't know yet. Perhaps Chevy priced it above TDI because it doesn't have built-in self-destruct.
 

tlhfirelion

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You explained that well. Thank you. Lets hope its oil lubricated.

> For those of us less educated on the ins and outs of the various pumps, is this a good or bad thing?

The core questions are:
What lubricates the pump?
Is is a bypass system, returning excess fuel to the tank?

The Botch CP4.1 used in the TDI is lubricated by the fuel, which is a marginal situation even if the fuel meets US ASTM standards, which it frequently and catastrophically does not. When it starts to fail, the filter does not protect the pump from the circulating abrasive. When it fails completely, bye bye whole fuel chain.

If the Cruze-D pump is lubricated by engine oil (or, less likely, by a dedicated system), that improves the odds of longevity by a substantial margin. As would not being bypass. As would having superior filtering. We just don't know yet. Perhaps Chevy priced it above TDI because it doesn't have built-in self-destruct.
 

Driver_found

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I'm not sure Mazda got the Rotary wrong...it has some inherent niggles (such as fuel economy) that are a product of a rotary. To me, Diesel is easier to "get right" than a rotary. Then again, I don't claim to be an engineering expert on either.
NSU/Audi/VW got the Rotary wrong.
Mazda perfected it, despite its inherent drawbacks. I know an owner of an original NSU Ro80 who eventually swapped in a Mazda engine to keep that unique car on the road. Mazda rotaries have also won 'numerous' endurance races, including the 24 hours of Le Mans.
 

Silvanelf

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I'm at 32k on my Chevy Volt with 0 issues and a great dealer. My Jetta TDI is just hitting 100k and no real issues but I'm not fond of any of my three local VW dealers. I'm looking forward to the competition.

I have to agree with ChasSidwa completely on the not being fond of the VW dealer ships. SpeedWay Motors in BC was fantastic, but I have moved back to the East Coast. Now I bought a 2006 VW Jetta TDI at SpeedWay and the service was top notch, had the man who wold me the care meet me with keys in hand any time the car went in for warrenty. Every time the car went in it was vacuumed and washed free of charge. Nice added bonus don't ya think?

I move back to the East Coast and not a word of a lie I bring my 2006 into the VW dealership for service (Jim Sampson Motors) so I ask them if they are going to need any extra time to wash and vacuum my car. The exact words were "We wont be doing that to your care, we do it for OUR customers only, it's our little nich."

Now read that last sentence. We do that for OUR customers, even though I owned a VW product, I was considered not one of their customers cause my car was bought on another lot so my car was not to receive the same treatment as the people who purchased from them. BUT they did wash and vacuum there OWN customers cars.

Now a VW product is a VW product, I know that sounds redundant. But ethically NO matter where the car is purchased I should receive the same service as if the car was bought at that shop. I was so angry at this fact that I from that point brought my car down to Hill Crest Motors in Halifax. For you who don't know Jims Sampsons is a 5 hour 400 klm drive to Hill Crest Motors. So total 10 hours and 800 klms round trip to get my 2006 VW Jetta TDI serviced. Hill Crest would atleast wash the car.

Now before anyone gets into a little tantrum of "well they support who buys from them." I had a 2003 Toyota Echo I bought new on Cape Breton, I joined the army and that car was serviced in Ontario, Halifax, and BC. And it didn't matter which dealer ship I bought that little Toyota echo into that car was serviced and treated as if it was bought from that dealer ship. They didn't ask where I bought it, nor did they care where I bought it. It went in, and $29 dollars later my echo came out washed can cleaned and I was on my way in EVERY location.

So as for adding a little stress to VW with another brand bringing out a diesel and maybe humbling VW dealer ships that would be fantastic. Because IMO VW dealerships tend to ride a little high on the horse. My cars should get top service, and the exact same service as each of "their" customers receive because I have a VW product. If they wash and vacuum their clients cars, well mine should be as well.

Funny thing is when you get your VW brought in for service they ask you to tell the VW of Canada to give them all 10's. Well its hard to give a 10 when you treat me, and my car as if I was a different brand, and don't deserve your top service "your" customers are getting. Just because I purchased from another dealer.

The only reason I got a 2012 VW now is because I love the brand, I love the car. I love how the handle, and how they feel. Though I miss the sport suspension and breaks my 2006 had. But either way the 2012 Comfort Line I have is still a wonderful car. But I don't care for how VW dealerships stick there nose up at cars purchased from other dealers.

A VW is a VW, and should be treated with top quality service no matter which lot I bring it into for service. Wiether bought there or not. But VW Dealerships tend to not think the same way. And if you go to another lot your car will get serviced, but you will be treated as if you brought something that isn't a VW brand in.
 
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Jim B PEI

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I'm not sure Mazda got the Rotary wrong...it has some inherent niggles (such as fuel economy) that are a product of a rotary. To me, Diesel is easier to "get right" than a rotary. Then again, I don't claim to be an engineering expert on either.
I had a new RX3 in 1973. Trust me, they got the rotary engine wrong. Along with everything else. 4 engines--one lasting less than one week. (yes, and I used more expensive unleaded gasoline which was new at the time to avoid the apex seal and 'grey paint' problem) Gauge failures--all of them at different times including speedo and tach. 4 starters--one new out of the box lasting exactly 4 starts--it never left the dealership. 2 carbs. 2 to 3 seat belt replacements for each seat (they fell apart--scary!). 1 clutch (never abused it--it fell apart) Heater fans, disc brakes were completely useless and basically scary for a 'fast' car, with endless fixes, new pads and rotors etc. Almost every car I've ever driven except a 1960 Vauxhall Victor had more confidence inspiring brakes. Ignition switch failures. Fuel pump failures. Oh, and the stainless steel exhaust system cracked in two and fell off two weeks after I picked it up new. Mileage was horrible (I think that 9 mpg US qualifies as horrible, don't you? Winter city driving with a manual), and dropped 35% between 61 mph and 63 mph, from 26 to 17. Did I mention I was NOT a boy racer? Had it for 5 years/80,000 miles, and loved/loathed it, and ALWAYS had to have a second car on hand to actually go anywhere. Yes, they got it wrong. Surprisingly for a Mazda, no rust! But everything else failed at least once, it seemed.
 

fordt

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Speaking of the Mazda diesel, seems like they've already screwed it up, just google "Mazda 2.0 L diesel oil levels" and read the myriad of problems. Hopefuly they fix things before it gets here. I'd love to see more diesels here as well and will welcome the new Chevy, but I'm out of the sedan market and will probably hold on to my beloved 03 Golf (225K) until it finally expires, if it does! But my 03 Dodge Cummins I'm hoping will be replaced with the new Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD 3.0L diesel. To be able to tow 7400 lbs, get 32+ mpg on the highway, and sit in as good an interior as an X5 for $12-13K less has appeal. When Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler decides to put that diesel in a 1/2 ton truck, they'll rule the market....
 

powerfool

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[*]GM continues to over charge for their products. There's no way in hell that thing is worth $2k more than a TDI.
This. I bought a 2011 Chevy Traverse new just over a year ago and I have been getting horrible fuel economy; it is supposed to be 17 city 23 highway... it is driven 85-90% highway and we get 18... even babying it. But, it replaced out minivan and I got it for 0% with my GM supplier discount.

I was ready to be done with it and got a letter from the same dealer saying that pricing changes mean I could get a newer one for less money. So, we decide to get the features that we want and expect to pay a little more. They wanted to tell me that I am $6k underwater on a vehicle that I just bought a year ago and have been paying $403/month towards 100% principal (meaning I have already paid $6k on it). That and the want to tell me that the 2LT model (we just wanted leather and buckets seats in the middle row) means it is $12k more.... are you flipping kidding me? They wanted to tell me I would be paying $780/month! Why in @#$$ would I pay $780/month for any GM when I could go buy an Audi Q7?!? I told them to shove it (mainly because I was still peeved off about the fuel economy on the 2011, 2013 has a better transmission that is supposed to be a bit better, plus mine is supposedly an anomaly)... they walked back in and said they could do $565/month (4.9%) because they would give me $2.5k more for my 2011 and adjust the price down a bit.

Anyhow, I am just waiting on something better. I want a reliable diesel CUV/SUV... that isn't coming in NA from an American manufacturer... maybe the Crossblue, but who knows. If the PD cam wear could be taken care of, that would be something.

I was curious about the production in Kaiserslautern and realized it was just Opel... which IS the Chevy brand for many countries that are adverse to buying "American." Vauxhall is another Chevy brand... in the UK. And what I mean by the Chevy brand (and not a more generic GM) is that they fit the same economy segment that Chevy is known for.
 

German_1er_diesel

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OK... this is weird:
  • Press release says the engine is made in Kaiserslautern
  • Press release says the diesel has an overboost function
  • Euro diesel Cruze has a Korean-made engine, based on an older VM design
  • So the engine is the "Family B", which is a Opel-made version of Fiat's 2.0 JTD engine, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine
Since Fiat now owns Chrysler... this Chevy Cruze diesel should come with a little Mopar badge!

Odd that they use a completely different (but better, but not as refined as the VW diesels) engine than the Euro diesel Cruze.
 

jasonTDI

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> Never been clear to me why VW has been so coy with certifying the TDI for B20.

Oil dilution was the initial concern.
Of course we now now that CR's aren't that reliable on US "B0".

Anyhow, I take today's news on Cruze-D & B20 to mean that the Cruze-D pump is not the same time bomb that VW uses.

And the lack of a wagon (in the US market - they do make one) means Cruze-D is no-sale for me.

If these are such "bombs" how come I see no customers with failures? :rolleyes: Even 200K miles out.
 

Second Turbo

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Would you see any?

> If these [CP4.1 HPFP] are such "bombs" how come I see no customers with failures? :rolleyes: Even 200K miles out.

  • Victims of an HPFP failure are less likely to bring it to an independent shop than to a VW dealer. That will change if and when VOA starts stone-walling on the "goodwill" repairs.
  • If one has an HPFP failure not covered by VW, a 200K mile car is facing a repair bill that amounts to "total" on the car's value. A victim of that may well just scrap the car instead of bringing it to you.
  • Based on a look at the data analyzed in the NHTSA thread, the reported failure rate is lower is some regions, and we have only speculation on why. In the specific case of WI, there were no cases in the data (which doesn't mean there were no cases). Is any of your fuel coming in from Canada (where the wear scar spec is lower)? Also, the WI alternative fuels incentives might result in more BD being sold, which has higher lubricity (but potentially higher water contamination).
There were also 0 reported failures for KS in the data I looked at. That doesn't mean I think it's safe to own a CR here.

But back on the thread topic, do Cruze-Ds have bright yellow stickers at the fuel tank inlets?
 

ChasSidwa

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I wondered the same thing as "Second Turbo" when my VW guru Mike Hevner said he hadn't seen any HPFP failures. What is the failure rate? Time? Miles?
 

El Dobro

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I would have gone to the dealer first if I had a HPFP failure, too. If all resources at VW failed and the car wasn't repaired, then it goes to a guru. Same thing if it were any other make.
 
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Second Turbo

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From the HPFP point of view

> What is the [VW HPFP] failure rate? Time? Miles?

Accumulated diesel de-merits, mainly.

It can happen as a result of a single event. Top-off with gasoline, and you'll be lucky to make it home.

But the more usual case seems to be an accumulation of how much time you spend under the dark side of the lubricity bell curve - how often your fill-up is above U.S. ASTM wear scar, and how far above spec each event is. Your exposures to the risks (incorrect lubricity agent at the terminal, water contam at terminal/tanker/station, RUG contam in tanker or station) are pure chance, and pretty much beyond your control.

See the VW 2012-11 letter to ODI at NHTSA for some data on just how awful the US fuel situation is (document link corrupt at the moment).

Back to the thread topic:
US diesel fuel quality is junk, and frequently way out of spec.

If GM hasn't engineered themselves some immunity in the Cruze-D fuel system design, then they are indeed setting themselves up for another round of major consumer dieselfail.

On the other hand, if they have a more robust design, VW is going to lose sales to HPFP-aware customers who otherwise find the GM car acceptable (and I don't - "no wagon" disqualifies it even before looking deeper).
 

jasonTDI

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Because they call me....several hundred people in the area with them. EVEN while they are in warranty coverage for service. And BEFORE the 20K is up.

I've talked to 6 dealers here in wi and they sell far more TDI's than a lot of areas and there have been 3 failures since 09'. Huge problem...IDTS.

TT BMW and the amount of GAS HPFP failures is far higher for the number of cars on the road.

> If these [CP4.1 HPFP] are such "bombs" how come I see no customers with failures? :rolleyes: Even 200K miles out.

  • Victims of an HPFP failure are less likely to bring it to an independent shop than to a VW dealer. That will change if and when VOA starts stone-walling on the "goodwill" repairs.
  • If one has an HPFP failure not covered by VW, a 200K mile car is facing a repair bill that amounts to "total" on the car's value. A victim of that may well just scrap the car instead of bringing it to you.
  • Based on a look at the data analyzed in the NHTSA thread, the reported failure rate is lower is some regions, and we have only speculation on why. In the specific case of WI, there were no cases in the data (which doesn't mean there were no cases). Is any of your fuel coming in from Canada (where the wear scar spec is lower)? Also, the WI alternative fuels incentives might result in more BD being sold, which has higher lubricity (but potentially higher water contamination).
There were also 0 reported failures for KS in the data I looked at. That doesn't mean I think it's safe to own a CR here.

But back on the thread topic, do Cruze-Ds have bright yellow stickers at the fuel tank inlets?
 

WutGas?

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The failure rate is between 2-3 percent as of right now. It's not really debatable. Whether a person believes that is a "ticking time bomb" is subjective.
 

Wankel7

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[FONT=Cambria, serif]P.S. Mazda Diesel sounds interesting except it's a very new engine design and Mazda did not do so well with the rotary-engine-design . . . . . can they get the diesel right?[/FONT]
Seriously ? The rotary engine did just fine. The rotary is a lot like the diesel.

Works great but misunderstood by the mass - uneducated - public.

Being a diesel owner I would think you would see the parallels?
 

tscottt

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In an effort to return this to Cruze TD discussion, I will be watching the launch pretty closely. The Cruze is smaller than I think I want my next car to be, but I have always liked its resemblance to the 1st gen Mazda3.

As has been stated plenty before, this setup has some pros and cons. The urea aftertreatment seems to be the way to go currently, Mazda SkyActiv-D pending US evaluation. These "overboost" options always seem like a bit of a gimmick to me, but the hp/lb-ft numbers are nice. It's too bad Chevrolet doesn't have a mid-size model that's interesting enough for this setup. Maybe the Regal would be a nice fit since they are already essentially the US outlet for Opel.

Finally, a manual transmission would certainly be nice. I can see how from the current GM-buying population that it would be a tiny proportion of sales, but with hope to lure buyers of other brands where diesel+manual actually accounts for a significant percentage of sale, this would be useful.

More diesels are a good thing.
 

Second Turbo

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Odds and failure modes

> The [VW HPFP] failure rate is between 2-3 percent as of right now.

Per how many miles? Such stand-alone percentages are not terribly useful. Whatever the odds, I drive twice as many miles as the national average, so that probably doubles my exposure. I'm guessing I'd have 4-5% odds of CR HPFP failure over my usual 250Kmile vehicle life (and our ALH is well beyond that already, on the original fuel system).

Also, nothing necessarily prevents immediate re-failure of a VW HPFP. Take the rebuilt car to the same station that, unknown to you, has a tank of low-lubricity, RUG- and water-contaminated ULSD, and you'll be back in the shop pronto.

To get back to the thread topic, even if the GM pump is not immune to US fuel quality, if it's only the pump that fails, and doesn't take the entire fuel system with it, GM is in much better shape than VW.

The failure rate on the CP 4.1 is low enough that I could live with the odds if it were just the pump that failed.

I've already had to replace the 01M transmission on the ALH, and the failure odds for that are way higher than for HPFP - probably well above 50% for a 250Kmile life (but only the tranny itself usually fails, and gradually) The HPFP deal killer is the collateral damage, plus being dead in the water.
 

BeetleGo

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I can't wait for the real competition to begin. Many of us here have been waiting a good decade for other car companies, ones that already have diesels elsewhere (pretty much everyone), to bring them here. I don't see myself straying too far away from the Golf myself, but having more competition in N. America is good. Real good. :cool:
 
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