Chevron Delo400 synthetic oil analysis (10k miles interval)

[Norman]

Could the oil gurus amongst us please comment on the following analysis taken off a '00 Golf w/ 30K miles, Upsolute chip, Original Tuning Box and K&N drop in filter? The sample was used in the vehicle for almost exactly one year at the stated interval. 70+% of mileage during that time consisted of relatively short commutes (<10 miles).

<PHYSICAL PROPERTIES>
Glycol: NEG
% H2O: <0.05
% Fuel: <1.0
VISCOSITY 40C: NA 100C: 12.7
% Solids: NA

<OIL DEGRADATION>
Soot: 2.2
%OXD: 72.2
%NOX: 21.4
TBN: 6.6
TAN: NA

<SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSIS> (in Parts Per Million)
Iron: 59
Chromium: 3
Lead: 4
Copper: 8
Tin: 2
Aluminum: 12
Nickel: 7
Silver: 0
Manganese: 2
Silicon: 4
Boron: 32
Sodium: 3
Magnesium: 21
Calcium: 2609
Barium: 0
Phosphorus: 935
Zinc: 1294
Molybdenum: 0
Titanium: 0
Vanadium: 0
Cadmium: 0

<Oil Analyzers Inc.'s short report of this analysis>
Oxidation elevated
Analyze operating conditions
Reduce drain period
Resample at next regular interval...(hmm, I wonder if this is in ALL their reports...)

[ May 06, 2002, 21:13: Message edited by: Norman ]

 

[Georgeseq]

Yes, I would agree with Oil analyzer's comments. Your wear metals (iron, lead, copper, aluminum) all appear to be elevated. I was supposing it was the result of dirt intake (my predisposition with the K&N filter) but dirt ingestion is excellent. All indications are that something has gone away with the Chevron Delo 400 synthetic as you are experiencing higher than normal wear rates.. The remaining additive package is nothing to write home about and oxidation is quite high. When oxidation occurs, acid by-products are created which can chemically attack bearing surfaces.. There is TBN (Total Base Number) and there is REAL TBN.. Sometimes the TBN numbers do not reflect an oils long term acid neutralization abilities.
This is one of the first Delo Syn's I have reviewed but it would appear from your analysis that the oil really is not "bargain synthetic" and not capable of 10,000 mile ODI's in your engine, at least.. The oils operational limits seem to have been passed..
It is probably too late but it would be interesting to see what Delvac 1 would be on the next ODI..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[brian]

I think you should change the oil every 3-6 months if you drive so little. Based on the type of driving, the analysis does not surprise me. I still believe the Chevron is great oil for people, and I still believe that oil should be changed at least every 6 months.

Brian

 

[Norman]

George and Brian, thanks for your inputs. It's interesting that you comment about Delvac1 on the next ODI because that's what I'm currently running on this change. I'm somewhat not inclined to let it run the full 10K because of the stated mods, so I'll probably change it out 7.5K or so, or towards the end of the year, whichever comes first. I guess we're all really interested in finding where that sweet spot is in terms of effectiveness vs. cost.

One more question, what are your folks' thoughts on a bypass filter? Yea? Nay?... Thanks again for your inputs.

 

[tasma]

I would tend to agree with George on the oil not holding up very well. I also would like to ditto his comment on the K&N filter. They are not effective at removing the dirt that is going to wear on your engine.
If you always drive on nice clean paved roads you will probably not have any serious problems.

 

[kwhiner]

Norman,

Thanks for the post was considering the Delo 400, and thanks to George for the comments. Think I'll go along with your decision to switch to Delvac. I've got about 2500 miles left to the free castrol, just for curiosity might go ahead and analyze when I change. Like you lots of short trips around town and sub-freezing temps as well.

 

[mickey]

You must be in the 99th percentile, in terms of Oil Abuse! Only 10K per year, and the oil rarely gets hot? That ain't good.

Considering the conditions, I'd say the oil analysis looks as good as can be expected. I've never recommended a shorter drain interval before, but in your case I'd recomment you change it every 6 months whether it needs it or not.

I disagree with the Delvac 1 recommendation, and I'll tell you why: If you switch to Delvac 1 in an effort to stick with 10K/1 year drains, you're still going to have 2.2% soot, and you're still going to get just as much dirt in the engine. Would the Delvac 1 do a better job neutralizing acid? Perhaps...but not good enough to justify leaving it in there for a whole year, in your conditions.

If, on the other hand, you switch to a 6 month drain interval, then either oil will handle the situation just fine. There would be no need to use Delvac 1, and in fact you'd just be pouring expensive oil down the drain.

I'd stick with the cheaper Delo 400 Synthetic, and change it every six months. Delvac 1 make more sense in an "extended drain" situation, with a lot of freeway driving and a bypass filter installation. It's not an economical choice for a SHORTER drain interval.

-mickey

 

[GeWilli]

let me chime in there with mickey, go 6 months with the Chevron.

You'll see some gain over the period but not enough to make it worth it mostlikely.

Si aint' that bad - the iron is though . . . and the aluminum is somewhat high.

The Oilguard bypass unit will more than likely reduce a large chunk of the iron wear and definately help with TBN and OXD retention, but unless you are using crappy fuel no bypass will reduce soot by a measurable amount in the TDI (more than 2% - 1% maybe).

All in all - not bad considering the duration it was in there. Still well within the "normal" range of 10k/1year rec oil change interval in the TDI. . .

 

[solstar]

my guess is fuel dilution!

 

[AutoDiesel]

I am using Chevron Delo Synthetic and have beed changing every 5k miles because of the run cycles the engine was being subjected to. Start, drive 5 miles, stop. Repeat with maybe 7 to 10 miles in the evening. This is consider extreme duty service as the oil is never heated fully. It worked out to about every eight months for a oil change.
Now that the wife does not work any more it is only driven two to three days a week with trips generally in the 10 to 15 mile range. Still a little short so I'm going either going to stay with the short oil change cycle or make sure I take it out on some medium length "Italian Tune-up Runs".

Maybe I should push it to 7.5k miles and then do a analysis to see what's is happening.

[ May 07, 2002, 15:53: Message edited by: AutoDiesel ]

 

[peter pyce]

Originally posted by Norman:
...hmm, I wonder if this is in ALL their reports...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We will find out very soon ...... just sent my oil to the same people

 

[mickey]

Most of the reports say, "Oil is suitable for continued service." If they say "Change it", you'd better change it!

-mickey

 

[mickey]

It could be worse. Last time I sent them a sample, they told me I needed "engine repairs."

-mickey

 

[peter pyce]

Can someone of you experts explane how exactly this oxydation occurs and what is happening when you have high level of it? Thanks in advance....

 

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by mickey:
It could be worse. Last time I sent them a sample, they told me I needed "engine repairs."

-mickey

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Was this before or after The Troubles with the Evil Beetle? Maybe they were practicing clairovoyance.

 

[Curious Chris]

10000 miles a year! Poor poor little TDI never gets warm. Cold engines are the worst service conditions for any oil. I am a believer in the XXXX miles or X months. 3 months of short trips in winter could very well be the limit for any oil in a TDI!

I am running Chevron Delo Syn in my 2002 and based on this thread I am going to do an analysis when I change my oil when the engine hits 10000 miles. My guess is it will be a little out of wack being a new engine, but not as bad as the next analysis. I ran Delvac in my last TDI and I will return to it for more testing once my 5 gallon bucket of Chevron Delo Syn is gone.

My TDI loves me as it hits the 190 engine temp every time I drive it, and weekday it gets to spend 2 hours at 2800-3100 rpm.

 

[GeWilli]

Originally posted by peter pyce:
Can someone of you experts explane how exactly this oxydation occurs and what is happening when you have high level of it? Thanks in advance....

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oxidation,

basically you take the lubricant molecule and do something that causes it to react with oxygen.

Heat is the biggest cause, contamination and acidification will also result in oxidation. Water in the oil (condensation) will deplete the TBN and increase the oxidation.

Group III oils are reportedly VERY oxd stable (pretty close to PAO but not quite as good).

The problem with it is this. The oxidized lubrication molecule gets bigger and abrasive.

Kinda like taking 1/4" ball bearings between two sheets of metal, and then welding a group of 3-4 together (or sticking in 1/2" bearings).

It disrupts the film and the lubrication. Increasing wear and decreasing effectiveness of the oil.

Oxidation is bad. 'MKAY?

I actually have a PDF of an article somewhere - let me see if i can dig it up.

 

[Georgeseq]

As a follow on to Geoff's excellent response, oxidation is a process by which the oil makeup degrades with time and temperature. An example of extreme oxidation is the old Mobil 1 commercial with the mineral based oil in a frying pan on a stove; the mineral oil was black burned. This is an example of ultimate "oxidation".. By exposing mineral based oil to either high heat for a short period of time or just moderate heat over a longer period of time, the oil will experience some degree of oxidation. The downside of oxidation is increased oil viscosity, reduction of additization effectiveness and most of all, the formation of acid groups which can begin actually attacking soter metals used in bearing surfaces, etc..
Oil can become severely oxidized from extending drain intervals beyond the limits of the oil, an engine with high blow-by (actually cooks the oil like the frying pan example), clogged oil cooler/reduced oil filter effectiveness, etc.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[Norman]

OK, thanks, Karl. How about this...we're discussing the bad points of (relatively) short trips and such (which I understand), so where does the oil not warming up fully fit into this picture? It's not like we have some huge oil cooler that'll over-cool the oil, is it? Wouldn't most of my trips be warming the oil up to a decent temp, albeit for a shorter period of time? Is it this repeated short term cycling that is in fact bad for the oil? So many questions...

Thanks again for the responses, everyone.

 

[peter pyce]

Thanks for the explanations on oxidation!

 

[VelvetFoot]

Your crankcase breather is working properly?

 

[Norman]

My TDI loves me as it hits the 190 engine temp every time I drive it, and weekday it gets to spend 2 hours at 2800-3100 rpm.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could someone please clarify this comment? On 95+% of my trips I get the coolant temp up to 190 (which is what I'm assuming is being discussed above), but that is separate and distinct from the oil temperature, is it not?

 

[VelvetFoot]

Hi Norman.
With the oil cooler it more or less parallels the coolant temp unless the capacity of the cooler is exceeded, which does happen. Plenty.

 

[Norman]

Your crankcase breather is working properly?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I haven't modified it in any way, if that's what you mean...

 

[Rapt]

Norman,

The oil not getting fully up to temperature means that moisture from combustion and air that condensed in the engine and contaminated the oil isn't driven off by the heat which loads the oil and damages it. Thats one of the reasons short runs are bad. Also when oil isn't up to full temperature it doesn't flow and lubricate the same way.

My recommendation, like the others, is a shorter change interval (like 6 months) but I'd also suggest trying the PC Duron 5W40 oil as a good quality, reasonable price oil that will be more economical for shorter intervals.

I've put 10,000 miles on my car since I got it the end of January. I can't imagine what its like to drive so little.

 

[GotDiesel?]

Not sure getting Petro Canada products is going to be economical in San Jose, California.

 

[GeWilli]

well . . . I've almost driven 20,000 miles since jan

LOL

mine is bigger than yours comments aside

one thing that might help you is an oil pan heater. Even if it isn't that cold where you are getting the oil temp up before you start it will help activate the ZDTP anti-wear chemistry faster, and get teh engine up to temp faster and all that - reduce TBN depression, OXD . . . .

 

[Norman]

one thing that might help you is an oil pan heater.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Geoff, you don't know how funny that sounds, living in a mediterranean climate..

However, I will risk ridicule and poke around to see if I can find such a beast locally. Elsewise, I will search mailorder via the web. Thanks for the thought. Also, I haven't forgotten about that video, so bear with me, OK?

 

[peter pyce]

I never had oil heater like the one described by GeWilli ...... could you guys give some more info of where to see some of these (the once you are using) on the Net as I would like to get more info? Thanks.....