Cheap Diesel: 2014 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Value Edition Costs $22,115

[notagearhead]

Does VOA really get the customer?

Just my two cents, probably valued at cent and a half.
Hopefully VOA has seen that the business strategy since 2007-2008 gap years is not playing out as planned. Chiefly, diesel refiners have constricted supply to maintain a higher sales point, therefore, the appreciated price of a TDI over a similar Gasser no longer makes sense to the consumer. Is this horse dead? I swear I saw it move.
I put together some graphs to illustrate. While you grab your torches and pitchforks, I would like to say that I'm fully aware of the weakness/inconsistency of my numbers. Particularly when comparing Jetta models.

The following is taken from Dep of Energy data concerning National yearly fuel prices aggregated from weekly data.

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For the first 10 years, 1995-2004, no.2 diesel averages 1 cent cheaper than 87 gasoline. The following 9 years, no.2 diesel averages 26 cents more expensive than 87 octane gasoline. The real difference is a permanent trend that values diesel more than gasoline. Just as Oil producers thought that $100bbl oil was unsustainable (but realized that it is the new target price), refiners realize that diesel now has a break point of about $4.25. I think the goal of refiners is to offset efficiency impacts on demand, and they have succeeded.

For the following graphs, I used data offered by NADA Guides, using MSRP. Through 2005, the data is straight forward, VW offered the same trim title in both Gas and TDI. After 2005, VW gets freaky with trim titles (some years over 40 trim packages) with different titles for Gas and TDI. I tried to compare Apples with Apples, Mostly comparing DSG TDI with Gas SE trims. If there is a more appropriate comparison just let me know.

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another way

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Its fairly clear that after the TDI engine makeover, VW chose not to devalue the TDI line as it did with the Gas trim lines, in response to the "Great Recession" of 2008. At the same time, Diesel fuel had begun its irreversible break from Gasoline pricing.
This failure would eventually remove many of the potential buyers ( the economic minded ) as consumers began to realize that Diesel was no longer the same cost as Gasoline. I bought my TDI in 2007 (used) and I can't express my disappointment about diesel costs since then. I've owned diesel trucks since 1998 and tractors before that, and always felt "sometimes diesel is up, and sometimes it's down (compared to gas), but its always more efficient". That feeling is no longer true.
VWO also got greedy with the Federal tax incentive program (2006-2010) , diverting the incentive from the taxpayer to VOA. There is a nice drop in MSRP costs of TDI's beginning for model year 2012, first sold in fiscal year 2011 the first year after tax credits expire.
I'm sure this is all warmed over chat vomit, but I thought the graphs might be nice.

Is this horse dead? I swear I saw it move.

 

[notagearhead]

Noooooo!!!!!

 

[Cincy_TDI]

Diesel just hit $4.19 here in Ohio, while reg Gas is at $2.98. Diesel no longer makes sense at this price difference. I know after the winter heating oil season the price will come back down.

 

[oswegoPD]

Diesel just jumped 20 cents in Oswego, I to 3.84. Regular is 3.32. 18% price difference is as high as I can remember.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I just saw RUG for $3.36 and Diesel for $4.49 at the same station. Next station had RUG for $3.25. That's a big difference.

 

[snakeye]

My last fuel up was nearing $100 cdn. I filed up at $5.90/gallon. Gasoline is around 40 cents cheaper here. In the summer it's the opposite, though.

 

[BlankThis]

I think it's a step in the right direction but needs to come down another thousand or two. They would probably sell like crazy at 20k.

Miss the old days before "packages" where you could just get a base and pick and choose options, like the diesel engine.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

This is a base car with a diesel added. Only thing is the diesel is expensive.

 

[JettaJake]

On occasion I poll my coworkers and friends on their "pennies per mile fuel cost"....this has to be the most in-your-face way of comparing fuel costs. And while most gasser folks clearly have a weak handle on their actual fuel costs, based on what data I can find, no one ever comes as close as a nickel of what I get from an '03 5-spd ALH.

My last tank worked out to 9.12 cents per mile (which was the first time over 9 cents in a long while due to the traffic jams and crawling commutes of a couple winter snow storms but I digress...).

At just a 5 cents per mile differential due to better fuel efficiency, a diesel gains AT LEAST $1000 back in fuel savings versus a gasser every 20K miles. As I near 200K miles, my fuel saving differential over the gasser I did not buy is pushing $10K (that's $10,000 boys 'n girls).

Taking into account the time value of money and some other vagueries, after ~11.5 years I still think I am ahead by at least $7500....and I disagree with many of the rather dismissive posts found in this thread by those apparently convinced the diesel benefit no longer exists or has evaporated to nothing; not at all conviced of that.

 

[oilhammer]

On occasion I poll my coworkers and friends on their "pennies per mile fuel cost"....this has to be the most in-your-face way of comparing fuel costs. And while most gasser folks clearly have a weak handle on their actual fuel costs, based on what data I can find, no one ever comes as close as a nickel of what I get from an '03 5-spd ALH.
My last tank worked out to 9.12 cents per mile (which was the first time over 9 cents in a long while due to the traffic jams and crawling commutes of a couple winter snow storms but I digress...).
At just a 5 cents per mile differential due to better fuel efficiency, a diesel gains AT LEAST $1000 back in fuel savings versus a gasser every 20K miles. As I near 200K miles, my fuel saving differential over the gasser I did not buy is pushing $10K (that's $10,000 boys 'n girls).
Taking into account the time value of money and some other vagueries, after ~11.5 years I still think I am ahead by at least $7500....and I disagree with many of the rather dismissive posts found in this thread by those apparently convinced the diesel benefit no longer exists or has evaporated to nothing; not at all conviced of that.

Really? Come spend a few weeks at my shop. I've had TDI repair costs roll out of here that would have eaten up that "savings" quite quickly. Your 2003 didn't cost $7k more than the gas version, and it gets signifigantly better fuel economy than the gas version, and it doesn't have some of the frightening potential repair costs with the newer TDIs.

So, as is the subject of this thread, when the car costs more to purchase, more to maintain, more to insure, and the price-per-gallon of fuel is more, in order to come out ahead that car must be able to get 60 MPGs.... and it simply can't. So keep on enjoying your ALH, I certainly do. But the new ones? Nope. Not a money saving venture, sorry, just isn't. Simple math. Good thing the cars have a lot of other worthy attributes to make them appealing.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Good thing the cars have a lot of other worthy attributes to make them appealing.

I look at the Golf as a economical, reasonably priced, non-flashy personal car. I can drive it anywhere without feeling like an idiot (which I would in a BMW or Porsche) and it's cheap enough to own and drive that I can use it every day if I want. It's a very nice car with a great interior and all the features I want, and almost none that I don't. Beyond that the cost savings, if any, are a bonus. Certainly cheaper to run than a Cayman or S4.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

So, as is the subject of this thread, when the car costs more to purchase, more to maintain, more to insure, and the price-per-gallon of fuel is more, in order to come out ahead that car must be able to get 60 MPGs.... and it simply can't. So keep on enjoying your ALH, I certainly do. But the new ones? Nope. Not a money saving venture, sorry, just isn't. Simple math. Good thing the cars have a lot of other worthy attributes to make them appealing.

Yup. I enjoy my car, but I know that the moment I rolled it off the lot....it cost me $7,500 more than a 2.0L gasser of the same year. It will likely take 4+ years for any possible fuel savings to outweigh that additional upfront cost. Now if I was one of those guys that pile on 30,000+ miles a year, then it might only take 2-4 years for that to balance out.

 

[emscar]

Thanks, but i`ll keep my `00 B4, 210,000 mi`s and 47 mpg @ -10 to 90 degrees with an automatic.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

A 2000 Golf is an A4, not a B4.

And although I like the new cars I chose my wagon to drive 250 miles today to visit my son in Western MA. Filled it up after 704 miles, got 44 MPG despite many short trips in snow and very cold weather, combined with running on the highway at about 80 MPH. I had the Golf washed before the last snowfall and it looks so nice in the garage I hate to get it dirty.

 

[Jim B PEI]

Our latest pricing is $1.35.5 = $5.13 US gallon for RUG, and diesel is ! $1.54.8 ! = $5.86 US gallon. Needless to say, with the 03 Jetta wagon averaging 47.5 US mpg and the Prius C averaging 50.6 US mpg (both well off warmer weather form) it is still 1.5 cents per mile cheaper to drive the Toyota. With the current roads, not much 'fun' driving a car so the lack of joy driving the Prius versus the Jetta is well balanced by money saved...

 

[DickSilver]

I am not regretting my 2012 Golf 2.5 gasser. About $5000 less to buy than the Golf TDI, and gasoline is running 60 to 90 cents less per gallon than diesel. I also love my wife's 2004 B5.5V TDI, but save no money driving it. I figure my fuel consumption cost favors the gasser whenever diesel is 50 cents more than unleaded.

 

[kjclow]

I always look at it as a percentage. Comparable gasser to diesel to get equal or better cost per mile, diesel has to be less than 30% higher than rug.

 

[dieselb]

the basic jetta tdi at $22k vs a passat w/dsg, sunroof, alloy wheels, se for $25K. i think i would go for the passat. the passat manual, no sun roof is $23k. the price i paid was discounted, compared to the jetta list price. so maybe the jetta could be bought for $19k?

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

the basic jetta tdi at $22k vs a passat w/dsg, sunroof, alloy wheels, se for $25K. i think i would go for the passat. the passat manual, no sun roof is $23k. the price i paid was discounted, compared to the jetta list price. so maybe the jetta could be bought for $19k?

You might be able to do better, but my banks car buying service is showing $20,116 on the TDI Value Edition with a manual transmission.

It's $21,969 for a Passat SE manual. So in terms of how much vehicle you get for your money...i would say that the Passat is a better value.

I'm a cheap bastard, is why I didn't seriously consider the Passat TDI SE over the Jetta TDI Premium.

 

[atc98002]

I always look at it as a percentage. Comparable gasser to diesel to get equal or better cost per mile, diesel has to be less than 30% higher than rug.

True if your gas car uses RUG. But my Tiguan, and almost any other model I might consider, uses premium. At least here in the Seattle area I see D2 about 25 cents per gallon more. And with PUG at $3.55 and D2 at $3.85-.95, that's 10% or less a difference.

While a TDI Touareg may not get a whole lot better mileage than my Tig, it is sure more enjoyable to drive. The Audi Q5 would be even better on mileage, and BMW announced last week the X3 is coming to the US with a 4 cyl diesel this spring. That should provide outstanding mileage. I'm just waiting to see how it's priced. The announced base price beats the Q5 TDI, but what I don't yet know is equipage and option pricing. That's where BMW and Mercedes can bury ya!

 

[LDS4964]

At that I'd still hold out for the new engine. Offering it with steelies and cloth seats is good though but it sounds like they haven't done anything about the intercooler and HPFP issues. I'd also like to see small overlap crash reports of "good".

Hi...noob potential TDI buyer here. Can you tell me more/elaborate on the HPFP and intercooler issues,please. I'm looking at a TDI Golf tomorrow. I have no experience with turbos or diesels.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

Hi...noob potential TDI buyer here. Can you tell me more/elaborate on the HPFP and intercooler issues,please. I'm looking at a TDI Golf tomorrow. I have no experience with turbos or diesels.

Okay I've only had my diesel for 15 months. I'm sure more experienced owners will chime in. That said the VW diesels have been having a problem with the fuel pump self destructing, I recomend the HPFP thread on this forum. VW says its because people put gasoline in their diesel cars and many people swear on a stack of bibles that they didn't. VW has been covering these repairs in the US though not in Canada.
The intercooler issue is a problem for cold climates and I don't live in them.
The TDI Passats have eliminated the intercooler issue and mostly eliminated the HPFP issue due to redesigns starting in the 2012 model.
I've had no problems in 25,000 miles on my manual shift JSW diesel but I'm compulsive on getting the maintenance done and avoiding putting gas in the tank.
The 2015 Golfs are supposed to avoid these two issues.Time will tell.

 

[Steve-o]

The TDI Passats have eliminated the intercooler issue and mostly eliminated the HPFP issue due to redesigns starting in the 2012 model.
I've had no problems in 25,000 miles on my manual shift JSW diesel but I'm compulsive on getting the maintenance done and avoiding putting gas in the tank.
The 2015 Golfs are supposed to avoid these two issues.Time will tell.

+1 on doing the legwork by searching these forums. This is a complicated issue. No clear reproducible cause for HPFP failure seems to exist and fixing it is very expensive. However, it does seem to be a rather rare problem and VW seems to be handling the issue under warranty, at least so far. The people who've encountered the problem are (not unjustifiably) very vocal about it, but I think that's because there's a perception that there's a lot at stake.

There's a sizable list of reasons why buying a TDI might not be one's best financial move. The remote possibility of having a bad HPFP rates well down that list, IMHO.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Well said, Steve-o The only condition that people can reproduce that causes HPFP failure is to put gasoline in the car. Otherwise it's not clear why it happens, and certainly not clear how often it happens if gasoline isn't introduced to the fuel system. I was very worried about this in '10, enough that I canceled an order for a new Golf. I ended up buying one in '12 after it appeared the HPFP issue isn't significant. Now I rarely think about it except when I start reading here.

 

[atc98002]

Even fueling with gas isn't certain death. My daughter put RUG in hers and actually drove it for about 10 miles. After that it wouldn't start. Had it towed to the dealer, and they drained and cleaned everything. They even pulled the HPFP apart to make sure there was nothing bad. That's been almost two years ago now, and it still runs fine. ($650 later, of course!)

Do I thing she was lucky? Heck yes! And of course it helped to have me as her Dad, and knowledgeable about the potential problem. It probably also helped that Washington has a minimum of B2 at all diesel pumps. That extra lube can't hurt.

 

[kjclow]

Can we ask her if having you as a father is a good thing? ;p

 

[atc98002]

Can we ask her if having you as a father is a good thing? ;p

Go for it, I'm confident!

 

[Lincoln]

Everyone needs to take a longer view. So many posts about diesel not making sense at current differentials... Of course, when gas was over $4/gal everyone was freaking out in the opposite direction. Use a site like gasbuddy.com to see what historical prices in your area have been in recent years, ignoring cyclical rising/falling. Compare those numbers to determine how much a diesel would save you per year, if anything, given how much you drive. Factor in the increased price of the diesel engine. It's a different answer for everyone. Then, of course, there's intangibles like the enjoyment of the drive (TDI vs. Prius, for example). Ultimately, everyone has to decide what is right for them. I'm certain a TDI was right for me and I love my car, but not everyone has to feel the same way.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

When I bought my Golf I thought hard about buying a GTI instead, mostly because it would have been great for track days. If I drive 15K a year in that car (about right), got 26 MPG in the GTI on premium my fuel cost at $3.49/gal would be right around $2,000. If I drive the same distance in my TDI at 45 MPG with fuel at $4.49 (haven't paid that yet), my cost is just under $1,500. So even at the current differential the TDI is less expensive to fuel.

 

[Jim B PEI]

Hi...noob potential TDI buyer here. Can you tell me more/elaborate on the HPFP and intercooler issues,please. I'm looking at a TDI Golf tomorrow. I have no experience with turbos or diesels.

We all start somewhere. I drive a manual '03 90 hp and a DSG automatic 140 hp '10, both TDI wagons. Also a Prius C hybrid (auto CVT) and a Suburu Forester (manual). All I like--for VERY different reasons and VERY different driving.

Do lots of driving? Do lots of highway driving? Like to drive fast sometimes? Climb hills sometimes? Like a manual? Often load a car up with people or stuff? get a diesel, and learn to keep it warm, lubricated and running usually between 1400 and 2600 RPM. Slower under load is bad, high RPMs will do you no exceptional favours for power. Learning to shove the pedal to the floor at 1500 and upshifting by 2100 will likely get you there about as fast as winding it out. Diesels are all about heat, and pressure, and torque and efficiency under load, so driving with a raw egg under your right foot ruins the experience for all concerned. My favourite little run is running a loaded wagon at speed up a series of looooong 9% grades in fifth (or DSG 6th, manually held) just because they run so sweetly after a good hard haul. Do this once in a while, or run through the gears from stop to 70+ mph, use the right oil, and don't ever put gasoline in it , and you can easily get very silly mileage out of a diesel. I have a very rusty (that's why it's dead, only reason) Peugeot diesel wagon in my drive with 770,000 km on it...

Doing it all again, I'd specify manual only for a diesel just because its just better all around and more fun.

Diesels will surprise. Its not that they are a stoplight rocket, but that they have serious grunt once rolling.

If you drive around town, or don't drive a lot--get a hybrid or a cheap gasoline car

Turbos/superchargers with a gasoline engine are trickier (from the days of the Studebaker Golden Hawk and the Kaiser Manhattan, through to pretty current times) but turbos in a diesel are pretty rock solid if they have oil...