Chasing Lug nut threads

[DidJettarun]

Worked on a car today with only 4 lugs..could not get bolt to start...I need to chase threads...what is the correct thread pitch?

 

[gforce1108]

M14 x 1.5 assuming a MkIV+ chassis

 

[Powder Hound]

Yep. Even the newer ones with a different bolt circle will still be using the same threads and bolt size.

Are the threads in the hub OK or do they need help as well?

 

[JB05]

Are you missing a 5th lug, or does the car come equipped with four lugs? That could make a difference in size.

 

[deejaaa]

Are you missing a 5th lug, or does the car come equipped with four lugs? That could make a difference in size.

mk4's have 5 lugs.

 

[DidJettarun]

Yes...sorry it is a new beetle 98 MkIV...best guess is air gun was used to try and start the lug at her local tire store...gonna try and chase out the hole and get a lug nut in but wheel hub may have to wait a few paychecks until my daughter's college friend can buy the parts

 

[vwdieseling]

Brings back a memory of a local tire shop I bought tires from in my area. Put my lug bolts in with an impact. Two months later I went to do the front brakes. Two were seized in on the right side and one on the left side. I had to drill the centers out of the lug bolts to get them out of the spindle. Saved the spindle and threads. It took me 12 hours to do my front brakes. And two days of waiting for new lug bolts. Kind of still peeved. A lesson learned tell the service manager to tell the guy servicing to use a torque wrench set at proper torque.


Do not apply "Antiseize" to the lug hardware or studs.
Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to
the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque
specifications can be found in your vehicle’s shop manual or
obtained from your vehicle dealer. Finish tightening the lugs
down with an accurate torque wrench. Use a crisscross sequence
(shown above) until they have reached their proper torque value.
Be careful because if you over torque a wheel, you can strip a
lug nut, stretch or break a wheel stud, and cause the wheel,
brake rotor and/or brake drum to distort.
NOTE: When installing new wheels you should re-torque them after
traveling the first 50 to 100 miles. This is necessary because as the
wheels are “breaking in” they may compress slightly allowing their
lugs to lose some of their torque. Simply repeat the same torque
procedure listed below.
NOTE: Since the thickness of an alloy wheel can differ from
original equipment wheels, refer to the chart (below) to
determine the number of turns required for proper
engagement for your stud or bolt size.

Quick Reference


Size of Bolt.................Mininum Number.................TORQUE VALUES
.or Stud..........................of Turns.................
12X1.5mm............................6.5................................81 Ft Lbs Tq
.................................................. ........(All 4 X 100 pre Mk IV, 4 cyl non VR6 cars)

.
.

14X1.5mm............................7.5..............................89 - 91 Ft Lbs Tq
.................................................. .............(All 5 X 100, All VR6 & All Mk IV cars)
__________________________________________________ _________________________
All Torque Values are 89 -91 Ft Lbs Tq exceptions noted
Exceptions - VW
'88-98 All......................81 Ft Lbs Tq
Touareg......................118 Ft Lbs Tq
Vanagon '90-91............123 Ft Lbs Tq
EuroVan '92-96.............118 Ft Lbs Tq
EuroVan '97-current.......133 Ft Lbs Tq

Exceptions - Audi
'88-97 All
'82-87 GT Coupe
'94-98 Cabriolet.............81 Ft Lbs Tq

Informatin Source: 2004 Tire Guild, verified by VAG Service Tech.
__________________________________________________ __________________________Do not apply "Antiseize" to the lug hardware or studs.

 

[JB05]

Where I bought my tires, the tech applied the torque wrench after the impact wrench. So naturally the torque wrench will click at 90 when the true, over applied torque is more like 130 foot pounds.

 

[vwdieseling]

Where I bought my tires, the tech applied the torque wrench after the impact wrench. So naturally the torque wrench will click at 90 when the true, over applied torque is more like 130 foot pounds.

Yes I agree. There are several sources online to purchase lug bolts either for aluminum or steel rims. I purchased mine through the dealer. I'm sure a tire tech could cross thread one too, but the spindles seem to have a stronger steel composition then the lug bolts. I use the word seem, because when I drilled out the centers of the lug bolts they seemed soft I stepped up bits until what was left of the bolt pealed away from the spindle threads. I did no damage to the threads. I remember being so mad and down to one car because my wife was out of town I wanted to beat the tech's as& for fuc*&^( my car up. I really didn't give a sh*& if it would work or not. Luckily it did.

 

[DidJettarun]

Has anyone tried threading the shank of the tap back though the wheel hub and backing it out to chase the threads but not cut new threads? I have seen adjustable back taps in metric sizes for cleaning up spark plug holes and bring the debris outward.

 

[todds87ss]

using grease on the tap will keep the particles in place.

I have never had an issue using anti-sieze on lugs, but I know alot of folks that have had issues NOT using it. Take your pick. You can use a tap, and remove metal which affect the available torque, or use anti-sieze which lowers running torque and therefore lowers the required torque value.

YMMV

 

[duwem]

I had one that was a little boogered up when I took my winter wheels off recently, so I ran a tap in it (but then 2 weeks later the wheel bearing failed so I replaced the whole hub anyways). Make sure you get the right one, some spark plugs are not 1.5 pitch thread.

 

[DidJettarun]

Not sure that I was clear....I want to put an M14 x 1.5 tap starting from the 'inside" working to the wheel side following the existing threads and only cleaning up the buggered thread on the wheel side...this would allow me to avoid cutting any new threads just cleaning up from inside out. I would be advancing the tap from the inside of the wheel hub to the wheel side

 

[duwem]

With the taper in the tap, you may be fine from the outside. I would just try it, just run it in a few turns and back it out, if it looks like its working go farther but if it gets hard then you might be cross threading.

I dont see how your going to get in from the backside on the car.

Worse case you may need a new hub at $75 and an hour to replace.

 

[LNXGUY]

Where I bought my tires, the tech applied the torque wrench after the impact wrench. So naturally the torque wrench will click at 90 when the true, over applied torque is more like 130 foot pounds.

I cringe when I see this...

 

[325_Guy]

I cringe when I see this...

Yeah, it's pretty much what you have to expect though from an auto repair shop. I had to have the shop work on mine in December (accident repair...ins was paying). They replaced a front wheel. I snapped a 3/8" extension and split a socket trying to loosen the lug bolts afterwards when I went to make sure they were properly torqued.

 

[ymz]

At least they didn't charge you extra for going above the call of duty and making sure the wheel won't fall off!!

Yuri

 

[Wankel7]

The lug bolts and hub on my wagon are pretty rusty making it a pain the thread them. Would chasing the threads of the bolt and the hub help out?

 

[duwem]

Might help or might take off some coatings and make them rust worse in the future.

You can get aftermarket lugs for like 2 bucks a piece.

 

[Wankel7]

Might help or might take off some coatings and make them rust worse in the future.

You can get aftermarket lugs for like 2 bucks a piece.

Chased both the lug bolts and the threads in the hub. The lug bolts thread in so so much better now!

If you do this though be careful not to run the tap to deep into the hub because you could hit the ABS tone ring.

I was able to find the 14mmX1.5 tap/die on Amazon.

 

[Jettascuba]

Put some copper anti-seize on the threads.

 

[Wankel7]

Put some copper anti-seize on the threads.

I am torn I have read a lot that said the threads need to be clean and dry to reach their proper torque.

 

[kcunniff]

I am torn I have read a lot that said the threads need to be clean and dry to reach their proper torque.

Correct. However, you can still achieve proper torque by following the directions from whatever anti-seize you use to compensate for the change exacted by the anti-seize.

Qualifier, I have never used anti-seize on my lug bolts. I simply wipe my lug bolts clean, blow out any dust from the hub, and torque to spec with a torque wrench in the recommended star pattern. I actually torque in two steps - half spec with wheels just making contact with ground, then full spec under full weight of the car.

 

[Wankel7]

Correct. However, you can still achieve proper torque by following the directions from whatever anti-seize you use to compensate for the change exacted by the anti-seize.

Qualifier, I have never used anti-seize on my lug bolts. I simply wipe my lug bolts clean, blow out any dust from the hub, and torque to spec with a torque wrench in the recommended star pattern. I actually torque in two steps - half spec with wheels just making contact with ground, then full spec under full weight of the car.

Interesting, I just read the PDF instructions for Permatex and nothing is mentioned. Who else makes anti seize?

http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/posts/13070.html

Interesting posts here.

 

[tditom]

Permatex, one of the leaders in anti-seize lubes claims that the products should not be used on wheel fasteners. I clean and dry both male and female threads as well as the shoulder of the lug bolt and the seal on the wheel and torque to factory specs.

 

[40X40]

See this for an example of HOW LITTLE amount of antiseize you should use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSJ7dQq7wx8

Yes, feel free to use it on your lug bolts. A little bit where the wheel meets the 'hub-centric' portion of the hub is a good thing as well. On the lug bolt, put it only on the threads and then only on the lower part and along one side like the video. When you put the bolt into the hub, the anti seize will spread to all the threads.

More discussion on the subject:

http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/posts/13070.html

Bill

 

[tditom]

Tire Rack also advises against using anti seize on lugs:
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=107&

 

[tditom]

... Who else makes anti seize?...

Loctite also makes it. They do provide a formula for figuring out how to de-rate the torque when using their product but it seems confusing to me.
https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/7506CCBCD9CC920E882571870000D92C/$File/C5-ACBAS-EN.pdf

 

[tjsean0308]

Well try a few winters in the rust belt and tell me that antiseeze is bad for lug nuts. Don't paint it gray but a little dab will do you good.

 

[Jettascuba]

Herschell copper grease. Using it all the time - the only tyre shop I trust (major retail chain uses it too). Nothing much special to tightening a wheel nut.