Changing the oil to often?

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
olson325is said:
The oil filter becomes plugged with carbon the builds up after time and that time is based on your driving style.
Not true. The soot due to dispersents remains at the 50-500 nanometer size, Particles as large as 7-15 microns will freely pass thru a full flow oil filter. In other words NOTHING in your engines oil can be filtered out short of using a 2 micron by-pass and even then very little is actually filtered out in the 2 micron element which is why the elements can last up to 60,000 miles between changes.

If you were getting solids in your oil filter (you will never find any, go ahead and prove me wrong) then the oil is either not rated for a diesel (lacks proper dispersents and detergents) or the soot loading is so excessive that you have an engine in dire need of a tune up, in which case you probably noticed the coal fire coming out the tail pipe...and probably have a few polution citations to go with it.

Even wear metals (assuming they categorized as normal) are less than 1 micron.

The bottom line is that an oil filter is simply a last resort at stopping something that can cause damage to the engine, otherwise they don't stop or remove any normally occuring contaminant in ANY engine.

If you do a lot of short trips you should change oil more often because of the condensation build up in the engine.
Again not completely true. VW's and most other German cars regulate oil temperatures by way of an oil to coolant heat exchanger. This heat exchanger HEATS the oil and burns off any residual moisture in the oil. As long as the oil is heated above ambient temperatures (possible on even the coldest of days) the moisture will evaporate from the engine and be burned off by way of the CCV system.

The issue with moisture is not the moisture itself but the reaction with combustion by-products that forms acids in the oil. Oils especially the long drain oils have higher levels of "base" or acid neutralizing chemicals that prevent the formation of acids and other corrosion forming compounds. As long as those base chemicals (identified using a TBN test) are still present, the engine is protected from damage due to acid formation. Generally even with short trips in winter weather TBN will still remain at sufficient levels that after 15K you have ample reserve to safely run out to 20K. The biggest reducer of TBN is sulfur, since this is virtually eliminated from diesel fuels, the acid formation is nearly eliminated as a possible issue thus further increasing your drain intervals beyond what was typically recognized as possible.
 
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SonyAD

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București, România
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I've seen many oils advertised as long drain interval having, paradoxically, lower TBN, HTHS viscosity and viscosity index, SAPS. Virtually all are 30 weights.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Bear / bare with me. This just happens to be the way I can cope / explain all this.

A juggler starts with a few items in the air and adds items as time goes on. A world class juggler can do his craft well beyond what most people can conceive of or even see. You have to use high speed cameras and then show the artist at work in slow motion to see all the things that are going on. I do not juggle physical items (way to clutsy) but I do try it with ideas at times. I am slow at even using ideas and it takes me forever to get everything rolling.

Drivbiwire has about ( I really do not know the exact number) 9 concepts about diesel lubricants in the air right now. He does an excellent job at this. If I were to master another 5 lubricant concepts ( new or differemt concepts) it does not mean I could get him to take all his concepts and just add mine to his performance. At 14 concepts he might start to be loaded. Now why do I drift off into juggling and then into concepts?

The TDI PD has 15 or so engineering problems in the camshaft area. There are 9 lubrication laws at work at any one time, there are 5 material choices at play, there are 4 hydrodynamic laws in operation, along with 3 or so groove pumping laws, 4 surface treatment processes, 2 lubricant placement laws and a many more things I am sure.

How does any one person handle all this at any one time? With a whole bunch of trouble! As a jerk from Mississippi I am way out of my league. At times all I can do is watch the other persons juggling performance and clap. I try to get my performance going and just start dropping things at times. More practice and realize that I am not world champion material. That can not however be an excuse to quit. It can not be an excuse for any of us to quit. We have to intergrate all this into a working solution for the PD. I personally believe 4 or 5 selected solutions will make a huge difference.

Perhaps we can just watch each other and clap most of the time. Maybe there is a person who can get it all together.

Mercy please descend on all this....

eddif
 
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TooSlick

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Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
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Audi 100S
Changing oil more often in a diesel is beneficial to a degree, simply because your equilibrium levels of soot will be reduced. In most cases however, the 10,000 mile oil change interval in a TDI is fine and there are only marginal benefits to be gained by changing oil more often.

I've seen a lot of high mileage engines that had 3000 mile oil changes with a
basic petroleum oil. You simply can't tell everything from a $25.00 oil
analysis.

TS
 

VWBeamer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Location
GA
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
I wish I had taken pictures when I had the valve cover off the PD with the 5k OCI. The motor looked new inside, very clean and the cam lobes all had the chamfer on the edge all the way around.

BTW, I will be going to a 10K OCI



Thanks for all the info from everyone.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
I am not a lubrication specialist. I grind on ferfectly good bearings, overcome cantilever forces, and try to redirect oil to the right place. As a sideline of all that, I must choose a heavier / higher viscosity oil. The oil needs to be a diesel oil and thus I have to listen to all that goes on. What the experts talk about has to be taken into account. I may choose to violate some of their concepts to save money. I have to wonder what caused some of the problems so that I can decide what to do.

It appears to a yokel, that this is kinda what happened:
The cam and followers in the PD are marginal with 5W-40 oil.
Extended OCIs are easier to work with using 5W-30
They ignored the cam problems and went with the 5W-30
Cams failed more with the thin oil (BEW-BRM ?)
The VW factory replaced the followers with a more slippery model (when ?)
The great oil hunt began


I conclude as a yokel:
The 5W-40 oil is too thin for the sub-tropics.
A just right oil for the tropics is too thick for EOCIs (not blended for diesel EOCIs either)
Without a custom blended oil, I have to revert to shorter OCIs.
A thick oil in cantilevered bearings is bad
I have to reduce the cantilever forces to use 15W-50
I have to place oil in the right place
Folks that live in cooler areas resist what I face.
Folks in cooler areas do not understand the importance of cantilever force reduction for 5W-40 oil in a cool area. (BEWs and BRMS handle oil differently.

Everyone wants a pill not surgery and 3 pills.

eddif
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
TooSlick said:
Changing oil more often in a diesel is beneficial to a degree, simply because your equilibrium levels of soot will be reduced. In most cases however, the 10,000 mile oil change interval in a TDI is fine and there are only marginal benefits to be gained by changing oil more often.

I've seen a lot of high mileage engines that had 3000 mile oil changes with a
basic petroleum oil. You simply can't tell everything from a $25.00 oil
analysis.

TS
You done good with that explanation.
eddif
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
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Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
In respect to soot, the use of ULSD alone can account for up to a 90% reduction in soot produced. You also get smaller soot particle size which makes it easier to disperse in the oil.

There is no doubt in respect to the benefits of keeping the total soot content below a certain threshold but I don't think any engine on the road can generate enough to come close to the 8% levels the oils are tested to.

A typical oil change after 25,000 miles of ULSD use at most may approach .5% and thats on a car with performance modifications.

The point is that soot just isn't the issue it was with 2000ppm or even 500ppm sulfur fuels.
 
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Ron 33

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2000
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Y2K Jetta GLS Atlantic Blue, Manual
265,000 miles

Oil (5w40) changed every 10,000 miles, still runs like new at 265,000 miles.

Started out on Mobil 1 Synthetic, changed to Rotella T6 Synthetic.
Engine is all original, including turbo. Proof is in the miles.
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
Drivbiwire said:
15w40, will it protect a PD more than likely YES.
BUT....
It had better be a SYNTHETIC 15w40 to handle the high temperature regions of the motor. Of course if you are running a 15w40
why not run a top tier 5w40 aka D1, TDT, Rotella T6 etc and get the best of both worlds?
The OP said the PO was using RTS/T6 -
VWBeamer said:
the previous owner did a 5K miles OCI using Rotella synthetic oil
To which you replied:
Drivbiwire said:
Never mind the 5K oil changes you're gonna be changing the cam and lifters, wrong oil
So which is it? :confused: Is this an acceptable oil or not?

FWIW, I've heard from some gurus that have had the valve cover off PDs at timing belt changes that have been running nothing but 15w40 and the valvetrain looked as good as new. Rings & turbo bearings may be another story but there's little worry for running 15w40 for short periods of time. It's certainly better than running gasser oil or without oil. I wouldn't hesitate to run 15w40 in my PD Golf if it was the only oil available at the time.

From what I've seen, UOAs have shown RTS/T6 5w40 to run just fine* in PDs. TDT is the darling oil around here for anything pre-commonrail but IMO there's no reason to not run any of the other fine CJ-4 synthetic oils.

*at least as good as VW-certified 505.01 5w40 synthetics
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
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eddif said:
Bear / bare with me. This just happens to be the way I can cope / explain all this.

A juggler starts with a few items in the air and adds items as time goes on. A world class juggler can do his craft well beyond what most people can conceive of or even see. You have to use high speed cameras and then show the artist at work in slow motion to see all the things that are going on. I do not juggle physical items (way to clutsy) but I do try it with ideas at times. I am slow at even using ideas and it takes me forever to get everything rolling.

Drivbiwire has about ( I really do not know the exact number) 9 concepts about diesel lubricants in the air right now. He does an excellent job at this. If I were to master another 5 lubricant concepts ( new or differemt concepts) it does not mean I could get him to take all his concepts and just add mine to his performance. At 14 concepts he might start to be loaded. Now why do I drift off into juggling and then into concepts?

The TDI PD has 15 or so engineering problems in the camshaft area. There are 9 lubrication laws at work at any one time, there are 5 material choices at play, there are 4 hydrodynamic laws in operation, along with 3 or so groove pumping laws, 4 surface treatment processes, 2 lubricant placement laws and a many more things I am sure.

How does any one person handle all this at any one time? With a whole bunch of trouble! As a jerk from Mississippi I am way out of my league. At times all I can do is watch the other persons juggling performance and clap. I try to get my performance going and just start dropping things at times. More practice and realize that I am not world champion material. That can not however be an excuse to quit. It can not be an excuse for any of us to quit. We have to intergrate all this into a working solution for the PD. I personally believe 4 or 5 selected solutions will make a huge difference.

Perhaps we can just watch each other and clap most of the time. Maybe there is a person who can get it all together.

Mercy please descend on all this....

eddif
Please..............can anybody, anybody at all, please tell me what he just said??????? :)
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
DRIVBIWIRE..............I followed your breakin advice and after 8,000 miles my 2010 TDI is running like a dream. I check the oil weekly (why? I don't know) and the level remains exactly the same.

Your advice about OCIs is the first one I've read that makes sense. All to often so many 'armchair expects' come up with the 'Jiffy Lube' BS and pretty soon they believe it as fact. I have no idea what you do up there in Idaho but your knowledge on diesels is priceless.

Thanks for clearing out the fog of so much misinformation found herein.

Dan :)
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
GTIDan said:
Please..............can anybody, anybody at all, please tell me what he just said??????? :)
Short version. Do not look for a simplistic answer. Use the ideas of many people in multiple areas to arrive at a multi-facited answer to the PD problems.

eddif
 

ruking

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Joined
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Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
VWBeamer said:
I wish I had taken pictures when I had the valve cover off the PD with the 5k OCI. The motor looked new inside, very clean and the cam lobes all had the chamfer on the edge all the way around.

BTW, I will be going to a 10K OCI



Thanks for all the info from everyone.
Indeed now that we know (you are the most important variable here) you did have the camshaft inspected, you really do not need to be an expert or guru to KNOW. The suggestion to ask a guru is still good advice and was given on the limited information provided. If it were me I would go to a min of 10,000 miles interval and with M1 5w40 TDT CJ-4. As said in a preivous post I do not follow the interval advice. I do run 25,000 miles intervals in a 03 TDI aka NON PD. All the best.
 
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ruking

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GTIDan said:
DRIVBIWIRE..............I followed your breakin advice and after 8,000 miles my 2010 TDI is running like a dream. I check the oil weekly (why? I don't know) and the level remains exactly the same.

Your advice about OCIs is the first one I've read that makes sense. All to often so many 'armchair expects' come up with the 'Jiffy Lube' BS and pretty soon they believe it as fact. I have no idea what you do up there in Idaho but your knowledge on diesels is priceless.

Thanks for clearing out the fog of so much misinformation found herein.

Dan :)
As for checking the oil every week I would say you are following the spirit and intent of the VW oem owners manual, words to the effect, check the oil every fill up. (you can look it up if that is important to you)

However you might consider this. After a while, each TDI has its own cycles. So for example my 2 TDI's 03 @138,000 miles/09@ 18,000 miles seem to "consume" a range of 1/4 to 1/2 qt (8 oz to 16oz) max over app 20-25k miles OCI's. While I do micro manage this, (I shouldn't) neither figure is really cause to "top up". So as you can tell I do "top up" that is how I REALLY know the values!!?? In fact @ 12,000 miles for the 09 TDI and doing continuous break in per Drivbiwire, the oil level did not move at all !!??? The local dealership made sure the correct oil was used (VW507.00 aka still under warranty) and was at the top level. @ 18,000 miles, ZERO movement !
 
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hid3

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Lithuania, Vilnius
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-Is there anyone who repaired/replaced engine or components due to changing oil too ofter? I don't know anyone.
-Is there anyone who repaired/replaced engine or components due to changing oil too late or not changing it at all? I know several.
 

ruking

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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Absolutely yes to the first question, if the PD saga/fiasco is to be believed.

As for the 25,000 miles and above for the VW TDI's, we of course would love to hear the details. I have heard of no one recommending never to change oil.

Like I said I have a NON PD engine and run 25,000 miles OCI's. (Delvac One 5w40) So far FLAWLESS.
 
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andreigbs

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Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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N/A
I'm running anywhere between 16K-20K mile OCIs on my PD, using M1 TDT and the DG bypass filter kit. My PD has been chipped for the last 65K miles, runs great and returns solid FE and performance.

As was said earlier, proof is in the miles. DBW's advice on PDs and oil, as well as TooSlick's and others have contributed to my PD's overall health. Many thanks to them.

Now I shall continue to DM, WL.
 

TooSlick

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Dixie
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Audi 100S
I haven't see any data to suggest that ULSD fuel will significantly reduce soot levels in used diesel oil. In fact one of the main goals for the new API/CJ-4 oil spec was improved performance with regards to suspending/dispersing soot. This increase in soot loading is a by-product of reducing NOx emissions and the more aggressive EGR duty cycles that are being programmed into new diesel engines.

TS
 

TornadoRed

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To those of you draining synthetic diesel-rated oil after only 5k miles: do not discard that oil. Pour it into another engine and run it for another 5k miles or so. It is perfectly good, even if it has a pure black color.
 

eddif

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Location
MS
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2004 Jetta PD Automatic
TornadoRed said:
To those of you draining synthetic diesel-rated oil after only 5k miles: do not discard that oil. Pour it into another engine and run it for another 5k miles or so. It is perfectly good, even if it has a pure black color.
That is a pretty good idea if the cam is not wearing, and the other engine has a thick enough hydrodynamic oil film inside.

The PD is just a poor engine to do EOCIs on. Narrow lobes and cantilevered cam bearings, that have reduced supporting areas.

If we want EOCIs, why are we not fixing the engines to handle the EOCIs? Instead we generally try to force something on the engines as delivered.

I can hardly wait to see the latest bearings come out of our engine. I hope to get them out this week.

eddif
 

Diesel pwr

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maryland
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ODE's that are shorter than what you "could" go are perfectly fine and will NOT cause any harm, other than needlessly changeing oil and opening the engine up to debris......

There are no "chemicle" reactions or any issu'e with that, were talking about a metal engine here guys, not some OCD woman hands....

It's your engine, do what you want, only thing that will reflect is your bank account.

OAT is the only way to really know how long you should push a oil, and what oil will work best for each specific car. With the exception of tearing down the engine for inspection. Remember each car is NOT assembled exactly the same, so clearances will vary, and so will quality of parts.

5-40 and 15-40 will both work fine of a top synthetic brand, amsoil, redline, mobil1, are very good choices, but remember the first # is what the oil flows " like" @ cold temps the second # is the weight @ opperating temps , only difference is that the 5-40 will flow "like" a 5 weight untill the oil is up to temp.
 
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eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
MS
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2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Well I done did it now.

I changed to 15W-50 Mobil 1 (with one qoart of 5W-40 TDT as a kicker).

Since the oil is not rated for extended oil changes, it will have to be changed more often, to keep it from becoming too thick.

It is installed with these cam bearings.


Now to see how it will do.

eddif
 

Dimitri16V

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DE
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eddif said:
Well I done did it now.

I changed to 15W-50 Mobil 1 (with one qoart of 5W-40 TDT as a kicker).

Since the oil is not rated for extended oil changes, it will have to be changed more often, to keep it from becoming too thick.

It is installed with these cam bearings.


Now to see how it will do.

eddif
Already have +5K miles in mine. Cam/lifters look the same as they did last year. I added half qt of PS Diesel Lube extender with it though. Rich in ZDDP and those other additives needed in diesel engines. and it's not even made anymore :D

I will post a 10K UOA
 

brons2

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Austin, Texas
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none
scrapen said:
I'm not 100% sure if my case is the reason, but the previous owner did OCI's every 5-6k per "the dealer" until i bought it w/ 183k. Now at 217k, a compression test yielded very low compression (barely w/in spec). I would say it's plausible that the shorter OCI's caused faster wear of the piston rings than normal. Not to mention, after 50k miles if you change every 5k you've paid for 5 extra oil changes.
You have compression that is within spec? That is not "very low compression".

Maybe the reason it's not as high as a brand new engine is because it's 11 years old and has 217,000 miles on it in that timeframe?
 

Bob_Fout

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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
brons2 said:
You have compression that is within spec? That is not "very low compression".

Maybe the reason it's not as high as a brand new engine is because it's 11 years old and has 217,000 miles on it in that timeframe?
For only 200K miles, compression should be same as factory (a bit better actually since it's broken-in). If all goes well, factory compression is maintained even at 300K, 400K, 500K miles.
 

eddif

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Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Dimitri16V said:
Already have +5K miles in mine. Cam/lifters look the same as they did last year. I added half qt of PS Diesel Lube extender with it though. Rich in ZDDP and those other additives needed in diesel engines. and it's not even made anymore :D

I will post a 10K UOA
Oh no! The old bull fight trick. Wave the cape in front of the bull then yank it away.

Show us the product then yank it away. LOL

eddif
 

eddif

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MS
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2004 Jetta PD Automatic
With the use of the Mobil 1 15W-50, I have a question. The oil is / was certified for older diesels. The 15W-50 has a pretty good package except for a modern soot dispersant (my guess). Is there an additive for soot dispersment available?

eddif
 

iMando

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Jun 22, 2010
Location
Missoula, MT
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen
Hi:
I'm new here... this is my first post. I've learned allot already. I got my Sportwagen on May 1st of this year. I've already got 3000 miles and I've noticed the MPG getting better and better.
I was told by a good friend who happens to work as a diesel mechanic for CAT that I should change the oil filter on my Jetta TDI at 5K but the recommended oil change at 10K was fine. Does anyone have thoughts about changing the oil filter at 5k?
Thanks,
iMando
 

Drivbiwire

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Location
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Waste of time, the wear metals are so small that they pass right thru the filter.

Most wear metals are in the 200nm to 1 micron range, your filter can't stop anything smaller than 5 microns.
 
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