Changing Injection Timing

[Johnny Cetane]

Does anybody know how to change the injection timing slightly? Any information at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John

 

[Turbo Steve]

With a VAG COM or VW Scan Tool and someone with technical expertise in this area, perform the following:

Select
Engine - 01
Login - 11
Enter Code #12233 and save
Adaptation - 10
Channel 4 - "Ignition Timing"
Use the "NEW" display value to raise timing to at least 2.4* BTDC (average of fluxuating digits).

Go to Measuring Blocks' Group 5, Block 3 to ensure timing is not out of range or less than 3* BTDC on average. If the values are a tad low, then go back to Engine Adaptation and raise the timing's "new" values a little more.

Measuring Blocks' Group 000, Block 2 also indicates Ignition Timing, but I prefer Group 5 instead, as previously suggested by GoFaster (?).

As always, check for Fault Codes when finished with everything.

Steve

Note - Raising Ignition Timing also lowers the Air Flow values in Channel 3 (MAF & EGR) and the ECU is programmed to likewise increase the richness of the Fuel Quantity Adjust (Channel 1) to help offset the slightly higher load on the engine at idle.

If you have no shuddering, try using the conservative numbers of 32800 across the board under (Channels 1, 3, & 4) and see what this does, but keep in mind the 5-digit programing value is dependent on where your pump's two mechanical settings are, so Channel 3's timing may need to be higher than the others.

 

[GeWilli]

I'd reccomend doing it the 'real' way mechanically using basic settings and changing the phyiscal pump timing.

changing the adaptation is not quite the same and can wind you up in a heap of trouble.

The bently manual is the source - get a hold of that, a serpentine belt tool (found one at murrays discount autoparts for $15 with lifetime warranty and more sockets than the craftsman one that is $30), some new pump bolts, a Vag-com, and an afternoon.

 

[Davin]

A slight advance of timing can cause slight holes in your pistons. There's a very fine line where suddenly all hell can break loose. Be very careful.

-davin

 

[GeWilli]

like davin said there are some serious implications of doing anything to the timing other than mechanically advancing it within the grey box from the timing graph in bentley.

DO NOT DO IT unless you are prepared to pay for the consequences down the road and take full responsibility for monkeying with the engine and causing a catastrophic failure.

If you are looking for the last little bit of horsepower or the way to completely over-pressurize the cylinders and eak out a wee bit of HP for a month or two Turbo Steve's advice is a great way to go about that.

Do not do ANYTHING that hasn't been documented stable and durable unless you are prepared for the unknown!

as LdV says (below) if you believe it you are setting yourself up for failure - if you understand it then and only then can you make effective use of it . . . BEWARE

[ February 06, 2002, 09:49: Message edited by: GeWilli ]

 

[Drivbiwire]

DO NOT adjust timing this way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Utilize the mechanical method! This requires making a slight change to the injection pump pulley orientation. This has been visited many times.

Using the adaptation method as mentioned above does NOT make the same changes as the mechanical/Factory prescribed method.

Steve I strongly suggest NOT recomending to every person to go and play with the adaptaion of these engines. And YOU specifically have NO IDEA what your doing much less what some of these funtions even do. All you know is that it makes changes but you have no idea how they change or modify other factors of combustion in a CI engine.

DB

 

[Ted_Grozier]

15 bar per each two degrees is a linear approximation...

I agree that timing advance is dangerous. But why does anyone think so badly of 2 degrees advance when that's what you get with UPsolute??

 

[dieselUFO]

Drivbiwire, my timing was set about 71 at the Denver GTG.
Heeding the warnings here- the timing setting on my '01 Golf should not be advanced beyond the "grey scale" to compensate for altitude.
I was curious cause I used to advance the timing on the gassers I've owned. Sounds like the TDI is a different aminal.

 

[Ted_Grozier]

Lancelot you are right not to advance outside of the gray range. The ECU has an altitude sensor and besides, altitude is much less important to a turbodiesel than it is to a traditional gas engine...

 

[Drivbiwire]

Lets define injection timing. The timing that should be adjusted is predicated on the graph in the Bentley manual. This timing has thousands of variables that determine a specific timing number based on ALL operating variables. Provided that you maintain the timing within the shaded area you will always be garunteed proper timing regardless of conditions.

Since you live in Denver the ECU when you engage the glowplugs detects altitude and will apply the proper amount of advance once the engine is started. The computer will compensate for these conditions.

Take this as gospel only utilize the procedure in the Bentley that uses the timing graph as the ONLY way to set and adjust timing. Don't second guess what the ECU and Drive-By-Wire systems are capable of in terms of making your car run properly.

DB

 

[dieselUFO]

Guys, thanks for the info on the timing. I am still adjusting to the 21st century of the automotive world.
DB, did you get the check I sent in the mail for the GTG tune ?

 

[GoFaster]

I'll post my $0.01184 ...

DO NOT advance the timing in the Adaptation settings!!!!!!

Every 2 degrees of further advance raises peak cylinder pressure by about 15 bar (that's about 10% increase in pressure from stock) and raises piston *temperature* by an unknown but very positive amount. Both of those factors are headed towards pistons with holes through them. DON'T DO IT!!!

 

[Turbo Steve]

Originally posted by Drivbiwire:
YOU specifically have NO IDEA what your doing much less what some of these funtions even do. All you know is that it makes changes but you have no idea how they change or modify other factors of combustion in a CI engine.

DB

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I respectfully disagree 100% with the above remarks that are not truthful on the date posted. The learning curve has steepened considerably the last few months in the education and experience department, including knowing what factors alter the combustion process and what symptoms are good indicators of this.

I do agree that mechanical adjustments should be done first or at least to ensure their settings are midrange, but as always suggested, an "experienced" person is needed for fine-tuning Engine Adaptations.

In short, I look for mechanical adjustments to fill the major role and Adaptation for the fine things.

 

[HowardZ]

Originally posted by Turbo Steve:
The learning curve has steepened considerably the last few months in the education and experience department

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just imagine how much further along the learning curve we will come when TS is forced to transition to his 3rd engine?

 

[tomo366]

My question is Who will he get to install Engine #3????
KABOOM...........

 

[valois]

Originally posted by Ted_Grozier:
15 bar per each two degrees is a linear approximation...

I agree that timing advance is dangerous. But why does anyone think so badly of 2 degrees advance when that's what you get with UPsolute??

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ted, we do it on a MAP based on RPM and load. When you do it with the vag-com you are doing it across the board.

Steve you need to have a laptop so that you can at least log certain data points after you make these adaptations. Running a cable from your desktop doing it at idle and then relying on a few guages you have in the car is not suffecient.