CBEA/CJAA DPF info

[MrCypherr]

Seems like more and more of these cars are getting out of warranty and people are starting to find the easy and cheap way out. Sadly there isnt. Even the delete route is quite expensive. Although not as expensive as DPF replacement but still up there.

 

[oilhammer]

The issue we've run into as of late is the tuners don't want to do the readiness set, so if you are in an OBD test area for licensing, you can no longer get away with a delete. It'll insure those of us that can get away with it, however, will have a steady supply of cars to drive in the years to come. Because really, once the nuisance of the emissions equipment is gone, the CJAA is otherwise a pretty good engine, and they bolted them into some pretty decent cars... I'd say the only real 'turd-in-the-punchbowl' as far as that goes is the pano-roof in the J-wagons. But everything else, even the lowly deconted NCS Jetta, even the early ones with the beam axle, really are not a half bad car. My 2010 Jetta has over 300k miles, and it still drives perfect. Solid, tight, no noises.

 

[MrCypherr]

Is it that much of a hassle or whatever you want to call it to set readiness? I have no idea how to do any of the tuning but wouldnt that attract more customers?

 

[oilhammer]

That's their "out". If they don't set readiness, they can say "well it wasn't for road use anyway".

 

[MrCypherr]

Ahh touche. I guess thats their loophole to saving their a$$ with this. No need for readiness if its for off-road.

 

[oilhammer]

The thing is, that really isn't going to save them from litigation by the gov't should the EPA decide to go after them, or IF they are even able to. Because the "off road use only" clause doesn't work, because so long as the car was originally designed, spec'd, and sold for road use, then that's what it has to meet.

Therein lies the rub: the racing community was all up in arms over this, because if you really applied that rule, someone building a race car that started as a road car would have to keep all the equipment intact. Which of course, nobody does. I'm talking ALL motor sports with production-based vehicles/engines. Truck pulls, dirt track racers, drag strip racers... anything that was originally a road vehicle. Obviously this is an impossible rule to enforce, and it probably is hoped that the fear of consequences will dissuade the tuners from doing it. But so long as the draconian regulations force endlessly fragile and expensive equipment on to vehicles and machinery, the outcome is always going to be people trying to modify it.

When TDIs first came along, all we really had to deal with was the EGR system... and with the old 500ppm "low sulfur" fuel, the EGR was problematic, but it was fairly easy to deal with. Either you did a quick, simple, cheap, widely available software change (early ones this meant changing the PROMs in the ECU, hence the term "chipping"), or you just dealt with periodic intake cleaning. Neither was much of a nuisance in the grand scheme of things. You still enjoyed a car that had good driveability, unrivaled fuel economy, and whichever route you took to deal with the EGR was relatively easy and cheap. And even with EGR, we still had a car that was FAR simpler than ANY of its competitors of the time for engine management. The VE TDI is a dirt-simple engine. Its electronics are super simple, it is still a mechanical based fuel injection system that in 1996 was already two decades old in Volkswagens. Tried and true. Simple, tough, reliable. Then when ULSD eventually came along, the EGR issues largely went away, or at least lessened to a point that it is hardly worth mentioning.

But it has evolved and become simply too much to deal with. Volkswagen's answer was to try and cheat the system, they got caught, then got all butt-hurt and took their toys away. And it is sadly becoming clearer every day that the only realistic way to deal with these modern diesels in many instances is to do extensive modifications to them just to make them useable long term. I see 6.7L Ford trucks every day with sooty tailpipes, so you know those are deleted... because stock ones don't do that. I'm talking the ones with the double fluted pipes, not some brodozer guy that has a giant soccer ball sized pipe sticking out the back and a lifted suspension and rolling on Chinaspokes wrapped in no-name Chinapops displaying to the rest of the world just how small and useless his genitalia is. I'm talking about company trucks, vocational beds and boxes, livery on the side, that they have chosen to delete because sometimes they just need their damn equipment to WORK.

Of course, it also doesn't help (regarding the domestic pickups) that the diesel engine game has basically become a dick swinging contest to see just how much frame-twisting, slushbox-munching (because they're ALL automatics now), axle-punishing tire-smoking horsepower and torque they can squeeze out of these things. Does anyone really need an engine that belts out 1200 torque just to drive around mostly empty most of the time??? Because if you do, Ford will sell you one.... can't do much for your teeny peeny, though.

 

[MrCypherr]

I've seen it too. I dont blame the company trucks that have gone that route. Imagine hauling a bunch of equipment and guys to a job site that is paying you very good money and your truck goes into limp mode cause some NOx sensor goes bad. Now your day is ruined, job pushed back, paying guys and not even making the money. List goes on for examples. It sucks that its gone that route and have to risk with annual inspections or whatnot. The brodozers are a whole other thing. Even older truck guys with stock looking trucks have deleted them because they dont want to deal with the headaches they cause being stock.

 

[oilhammer]

Just a couple pics showing just how clean a diesel can be (according to common sense, your nose, your eyes, etc.... not the EPA)..

This is a CKRA, not a CJAA, but the slight difference in the bend of the downpipe is easier to see in:

That's looking UP from the outlet end of the DPF, from the connection to the SCR catalyst. This car has over 170k miles on it... look how clean the inside is!

This is the inside of the low pressure EGR tube:

Again, super clean, not a spec of soot anywhere. The CKRAs actually seem to do pretty good with DPFs, I attribute it to the fact that they needn't work as hard because with SCR, they need not run as aggressive of an EGR, so they produce less soot to begin with. This is also why the 140hp CKRA in the larger Passat typically gets better MPGs than the 140hp CJAA in the smaller, lighter Jettas, Golfs, etc.

All water under the bridge at this point... and of course, the EPA deemed these too dirty, and wouldn't even approve a modification for the manual cars at all, so in the interest of "clean air" they basically forced a bunch of 50+ MPG mid-sized sedans off the road. Let that bit of idiocy sink in for a minute.

These pics are of the parts taken right off the car, I actually drove this car in the shop less than an hour before taking these. The downside of the CKRA is of course the problematic SCR system. In the case of the DPF, unlike the CJAA, they really don't have much troubles. Even after the turbochargers fail (which is common).

 

[T1MMBOJONES]

The thing is, that really isn't going to save them from litigation by the gov't should the EPA decide to go after them, or IF they are even able to. Because the "off road use only" clause doesn't work, because so long as the car was originally designed, spec'd, and sold for road use, then that's what it has to meet.

Therein lies the rub: the racing community was all up in arms over this, because if you really applied that rule, someone building a race car that started as a road car would have to keep all the equipment intact. Which of course, nobody does. I'm talking ALL motor sports with production-based vehicles/engines. Truck pulls, dirt track racers, drag strip racers... anything that was originally a road vehicle. Obviously this is an impossible rule to enforce, and it probably is hoped that the fear of consequences will dissuade the tuners from doing it. But so long as the draconian regulations force endlessly fragile and expensive equipment on to vehicles and machinery, the outcome is always going to be people trying to modify it.

When TDIs first came along, all we really had to deal with was the EGR system... and with the old 500ppm "low sulfur" fuel, the EGR was problematic, but it was fairly easy to deal with. Either you did a quick, simple, cheap, widely available software change (early ones this meant changing the PROMs in the ECU, hence the term "chipping"), or you just dealt with periodic intake cleaning. Neither was much of a nuisance in the grand scheme of things. You still enjoyed a car that had good driveability, unrivaled fuel economy, and whichever route you took to deal with the EGR was relatively easy and cheap. And even with EGR, we still had a car that was FAR simpler than ANY of its competitors of the time for engine management. The VE TDI is a dirt-simple engine. Its electronics are super simple, it is still a mechanical based fuel injection system that in 1996 was already two decades old in Volkswagens. Tried and true. Simple, tough, reliable. Then when ULSD eventually came along, the EGR issues largely went away, or at least lessened to a point that it is hardly worth mentioning.

But it has evolved and become simply too much to deal with. Volkswagen's answer was to try and cheat the system, they got caught, then got all butt-hurt and took their toys away. And it is sadly becoming clearer every day that the only realistic way to deal with these modern diesels in many instances is to do extensive modifications to them just to make them useable long term. I see 6.7L Ford trucks every day with sooty tailpipes, so you know those are deleted... because stock ones don't do that. I'm talking the ones with the double fluted pipes, not some brodozer guy that has a giant soccer ball sized pipe sticking out the back and a lifted suspension and rolling on Chinaspokes wrapped in no-name Chinapops displaying to the rest of the world just how small and useless his genitalia is. I'm talking about company trucks, vocational beds and boxes, livery on the side, that they have chosen to delete because sometimes they just need their damn equipment to WORK.

Of course, it also doesn't help (regarding the domestic pickups) that the diesel engine game has basically become a dick swinging contest to see just how much frame-twisting, slushbox-munching (because they're ALL automatics now), axle-punishing tire-smoking horsepower and torque they can squeeze out of these things. Does anyone really need an engine that belts out 1200 torque just to drive around mostly empty most of the time??? Because if you do, Ford will sell you one.... can't do much for your teeny peeny, though.

ive been seeing more and more fleet owned deleted diesels myself, sadly also a lot of companies that exclusivly had diesel fleets slowly switching to gas....

 

[turbodieseldyke]

And it is sadly becoming clearer every day that the only realistic way to deal with these modern diesels in many instances is to do extensive modifications to them just to make them useable long term.

golf-ball pistons

 

[oilhammer]

ive been seeing more and more fleet owned deleted diesels myself, sadly also a lot of companies that exclusivly had diesel fleets slowly switching to gas....

Yep.... gasoline ambulances were a thing of the past, but they're back. So are gasoline fueled school buses, tow trucks, and all kinds of other things.

Several factors. Purchase cost, the extra stuff diesels get saddled with is not free.... then all the ridiculous power they make, coupled with trying to make them "clean", means they cost even more. Then they use more fuel than the would otherwise. Then the newer, simpler, gasoline engines have easily passed the ability that diesels had 25 years ago.

And they won't let us have all the smaller, more efficient diesels everyone else gets. The Sprinter is really the only exception. Diesel Transit? Gone. Diesel Promaster (Fiat)? Gone. Diesel E-van? Gone. Diesel G-van? Gone. Diesel Transit Connect, Promaster City (smaller Fiat), never got 'em.

And a diesel F450 cab-chassis based ambulance doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you feel the need to have them drag your RV camper trailer, your cabin cruiser, and a couple personal water craft along with you to the hospital after you had your first heart attack (because trust me, that big 6.7L Powerstroke can do it... easily... won't even break a sweat). Or, the ambulance company could save TEN GRAND, and just get the more-than-capable 7.3L gas V8 and get you there just as quickly, and probably be far less likely to trip an MIL or go limp or something in the short ~50k miles they'll keep it in service anyway. So what it gets 3 MPG less?

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

My CKRA DPF and tail pipe is white glove clean before I've deleted. DPF is still clean on the out end and actually found 3 NMS passats a 12, 14, and the CVCA 15 that has soot on the tail pipe.

I told the people who own the Passat's and they just shrugged it off.

 

[jokila]

Yep.... gasoline ambulances were a thing of the past, but they're back. So are gasoline fueled school buses, tow trucks, and all kinds of other things.

....

And a diesel F450 cab-chassis based ambulance doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you feel the need to have them drag your RV camper trailer, your cabin cruiser, and a couple personal water craft along with you to the hospital after you had your first heart attack (because trust me, that big 6.7L Powerstroke can do it... easily... won't even break a sweat). Or, the ambulance company could save TEN GRAND, and just get the more-than-capable 7.3L gas V8 and get you there just as quickly, and probably be far less likely to trip an MIL or go limp or something in the short ~50k miles they'll keep it in service anyway. So what it gets 3 MPG less?

To your point about the diesel ambulances, I know I have posted this gem before. This was in my area:

Waller County EMS ambulances found with emissions defeat devices

KPRC2 Investigates has learned the Environmental Protection Agency is reviewing a whistleblower complaint about emissions defeat devices on at least four Waller County EMS ambulances.

www.click2houston.com

 

[14BeetleCJAA]

I got lucky and my girlfriend's car has just a hair over 5,000 miles left. But yeah, I don't think that many people still have time on that extended warranty.


Ditto on my 2013.

Same here brothers, my DPF cracked. I got a 2014; figured it’s past the mid point of 2024 so I’d be SOL on the 10 year part. I called Niello VW in Sacramento, (btw: they are a great dealership), to ask for my original “in service” date and the let me know that my vehicle wasn’t first sold until March of 2015. So I got the DPF replaced and learned I still have roughly 8 months and 20k miles left. For everyone that is “close” on the 10 years, make sure you get your original “in service” date. If you’re over the 120k, well guess your outta luck on that part.

 

[14BeetleCJAA]

@oilhammer ... On dieselgate tunes, what kind of miles are you seeing between changing DPF'S?

Mine lasted 99k.

 

[pkhoury]

Is removing the DPF and EGR and replacing with pre-routed pipe something that is even discussed here? I'm having difficulty finding posts related to this. One of the main reasons I recently joined is to find information on this. I want to do the work myself, except the required tune. I live in Texas so emissions inspection isn't a problem.

Go to Rawtek's website. They should have an installation PDF, which is pretty helpful on what you need to do to remove it.
And that's what I love about this state - that diesels are exempt from emissions inspections. Period. Heck, I've talked to a lot of law enforcement who tell me about their lifted, straight-piped diesel trucks. Don't ask me how many times I've been pulled over just so they could ask what mods I had in my car. Okay... two times. LOL

 

[pkhoury]

I think if I needed an ambulance to get me to somewhere in an emergency, I'd want it to be reliable and not go into limp mode or light up a bunch of warning lamps on the dash. Just sayin...

We have a customer, an electrician, who uses an older E350 ambulance repurposed as his mobile shop and rolling toolbox. Old IDI non-turbo 7.3L. Reliable as the sun, we just put a new set of tires on it.

I've heard those and 6.9's smoke like a frieght train on the highway, but you can't really kill 'em.

 

[oilhammer]

Only time they smoke is if they are sick. They're set to be pretty modest on fueling from the factory.

 

[14BeetleCJAA]

I posted this on another thread, but wanted to place it here too since this is a “DPF info” thread.

How detrimental is shutting off the engine during regen? It has happened before. I’ll pull in my driveway not knowing that the car may be in regen, I’ll shut her down get out and then notice the cooling fans running. Should I jump back in and restart until the fans “go off”, or just deal with it? I’ve read about some of the indicators of regen, scent, decreased fuel economy, idle speed, etc. But to be completely honest, with the windows rolled up when I pull in my driveway I have no idea how to tell if it could be in regen without physically getting out and checking for the cooling fans running. Any advice, suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. This vehicle has treated me great this first 100k, and I’d like to keep it that way for the next 100k. Thanks in advance.

 

[oilhammer]

With the CJAA, there are several versions of regen. The passive one happens pretty seemlessly, and most drivers are not likely to even know it is happening. So long as that version nets the results the ECU wants to see, it's possible a lot of people won't ever even experience the more active version. The active version is pretty obvious. The idle speed is higher, the fans run full speed no matter the A/C request, the engine is slightly down on power, and sounds more like a diesel (more 'nailing' I guess would be the best description).

Now how much this plays into the DPF cracking internally I do not know. I've had customers that have the original DPF still working fine at 200k miles, and other ones that are on DPF #3 by that time.

 

[Nuje]

I realize it'd be strictly via hearsay (and possibly unreliable narrators), but have you been able to ascertain any correlation between the driving habits of early/multi-cracked DPFs and ones that have lasted longer?
Like, I'm wondering if the "bad" ones are on cars that are used more as grocery-getters - short trips around town, engine rarely getting up to full operating temp, whereas "good" ones that last being on predominantly highway vehicles (?).

 

[oilhammer]

If I had to SWAG it, I'd say that highway miles are always going to be easier on everything, including the DPF. Remember, the engine software does some pretty strange things to get the engine up to temp from cold. Like some really bad (for the exhaust) things. The CKRAs have a nasty "let's put the turbo in blow-torch mode" to get up to temp, probably why so many have suffered failed turbochargers.

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

If I had to SWAG it, I'd say that highway miles are always going to be easier on everything, including the DPF. Remember, the engine software does some pretty strange things to get the engine up to temp from cold. Like some really bad (for the exhaust) things. The CKRAs have a nasty "let's put the turbo in blow-torch mode" to get up to temp, probably why so many have suffered failed turbochargers.

I can confirm that the CKRA when cold the High side EGR opens and the turbo is blasted with 1100F+ exhaust temperature. I say that is nuts especially when it's cold

Now I've deleted, it dosen't do that anymore and hopefully a more happy turbo. Also the Turbo I got don't route exhaust gasses back through the head any more as well. So hopefully fix other isses as well.

 

[oilhammer]

The poor CKRA seems to have been an experimental engine, and a lot of it just went horribly wrong. But yeah, once deleted, a bunch of its issues go away completely. There's also an aluminum oil filter housing available for them, another all too common issue.

 

[MrCypherr]

Ive heard when deleted, people havent had issues with the CKRAs. Even the heater core issues went away.

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, no more EGR means no more superheated coolant through the EGR cooler (low pressure side) and no more scorching hot exhaust right back through the end of the head (high pressure side) so no more internally boiling of coolant so no more additives being left behind to clog the heater core up. No more EGTs at supernova temps during warm up and no DPF regen so significantly less stress on the turbo. And all that heat won't turn the plastic valve cover and dumb-ass cam seal design to peanut brittle so those leaks go away. Really the only thing left is the injectors and the plastic oil filter housing, and while the aluminum housing is available, I'd suspect the oil temps as well as coolant temps won't tax the plastic one nearly as bad so that may not be much of an issue on deleted cars either.

The hex shaft driving the oil pump may be an issue on higher mileage cars still, though. Tough to say. I've yet to see many 1/4 million mile plus CKRAs.

(I have a 338k mile ALH and a 340k mile BRM here today, though.... man the VE and PD cars turn and laugh at the CR car issues, LOL).

 

[2.0TDmark]

CJAA is what I'm working on. If I have a p0401 and 240F does that mean I have a cracked dpf?

 

[oilhammer]

Read the very first post of this thread.

 

[2.0TDmark]

Ok I wasn't getting the p2002 so I wasn't exactly sure... post 59 in this thread seems to say that it doesn't matter that if you don't have both codes, the dpf is probably bad

 

[MrCypherr]

Either or. Ive seen just the EGR fault pop up but the TSB says either 2002,0401 or the 240F. As long as its a EGR or DPF fault.