Car won't start troubleshooting

[boostedtsi]

found the issue...
I got on alldata and verified the timing marks on the cam, injection pump and crank...
The cam and injection pump are in time, the crank is two teeth off.
Looks like a really fun time for me... not really...

 

[mactdi66]

My 2001 Golf TDI with 146k won't start. I'm in northwestern Ohio where it has been really cold lately and I still have the original battery in the car.

Monday moring, I tried to start the car, going through the normal process with the glow plug light taking the usual time to go out. It cranked slowly a few times and then ground to a halt. I turned the key off immediately when it was obvious the battery did not have enough juice to turn the starter over. The entire process was not any longer than 10 seconds.

I sat for 30 seconds or so, tried again and the glow plug light again glowed for the normal amount of time and I tried to crank the engine and nothing. My first thought was the battery finally died and I needed a new one. So I jumped in my other car rather start looking around, so I would not be late for an appointment.

On Tuesday, we were snowed in and I don't have a heated garage, so I didn't do anything to the car on Tuesday.

Today, I tried to start the car again thinking maybe...but again, nothing...glow plug light came on and stayed on the normal period of time but when the light went out and I tried to start the car...nothing. So I took the old battery out and went to town and bought a new battery.

Put the new battery in and turned the key on, the glow plug light stayed on the normal amount of time and when the light went out, I tried to crank the engine and nothing.

There was nothing wrong with the car before this incident and I was aware going into this winter that I still had the original battery in my 2001 Golf, so who would think it would be anything but a battery issue.

I did think it was odd that my lights inside the car and the dash lights came on, even when the car would not crank with the old battery (that I thought was dead) but I figured that the lights didn't take much to light and the voltage necessary to to turn the starter was just too much for the 9 year old battery. Now I'm wondering if there was anything wrong with the old battery, but no way to know that now.

I read about the 109 relay being a possibility and was wondering if there could be a fuse that could possibly burn out due to the engine cranking to a hault when the problem first appeared on Monday. Again, I did not turn the key to start the engine any longer than 10 seconds before the engine would not turn any longer.

I do not have a VAG so don't ask me to diagnosis the issue. I would have to find someone in my area here in Northwestern Ohio who has a VAG and would be willing to lend it out before I could test for codes.

I'm hoping someone might have an idea or two that I can check on myself. Any help will be greatly appreciated...thanks...mac

 

[DanG144]

It is not clear whether your starter is engaging and simply not able to turn the engine over (engine locked up) or if your starter is not even trying to engage.

1) If you have a manual transmission, jack up one front tire, put the engine in 5th gear, lock the brakes, and try to turn the jacked up wheel in the normal direction of travel. If your engine is not locked up, you can turn the wheel without excessive effort, as long as you turn it slowly.

I had one car this year whose alternator bearings were so bad that the starter could not turn the car over more than about 40 rpm at best, and sometimes not at all. So if it is bound up, try taking off the serpentine belt, and try removing the glow plugs - see if either make it easy to turn.

2) When you do try to run the starter, tell us what the battery voltage does.

 

[boostedtsi]

found the issue...
I got on alldata and verified the timing marks on the cam, injection pump and crank...
The cam and injection pump are in time, the crank is two teeth off.
Looks like a really fun time for me... not really...

Well got it running again, but there is still something off with the glow plug system as they are still only kicking on for 2 maybe 3 seconds.
Is there a secondary relay set anywhere?

Again with the CTS unplugged it stays on for 20 seconds, otherwise 2-3. Could the relay still be bad even though it is testing as it should with a scanner?

 

[mactdi66]

DanG...If you are replying to my post, I can tell you the engine was cranking slowly for about 4 or 5 seconds, slowly, as you would expect on a very cold morning...then slowly stopped like your battery went dead.

When I tried it again, the glow plugs took the normal amount of time to warm, the glow plug light went out, and I turned the key to start and nothing...the battery appeared to be dead.

Like I said, I replaced the battery and tried to start the car and nothing, just like the battery was dead. I have the normal sequence of dash lights and the glow plug light staying on a normal amount of time, but when I go to crank the engine after the glow plug goes out...nothing.

After I get my drive cleared of snow, I will jack it up and see if the engine turns over...it is a 5 speed manual.

On the voltage issue, I have no way to tell what the voltage on the battery is doing.

If you were guessing, would you be thinking the starter shorted out?

Also, could it be the relay or fuse?

This is gonna take me some time as I have limited time to work on the car on a daily basis...but stick with me...I'm willing to learn and do what is necessary to figure out what is going on with my beloved Golf...I have another car to drive so I'm not up against the clock.

Thanks for your response...mac..in cold NE Ohio

 

[DanG144]

Mac,
What do your interior lights and headlights do as you engage the starter? Do they dim quite a bit?

It could be quite a few things based on what you are saying.

A $20 voltmeter will quickly pay for itself in many ways.

It could be your starter solenoid.
It could be a bad ground.
It could be a bad battery connection. ( I will not assume that you cleaned them when replacing the battery.)
It could be a bad solenoid to starter cable.
It could be a hydrolocked engine.
It could be a draggy engine from some auxiliary component (AC, alternator, power steering pump, bad clutch and in gear.)


Please do not feel that you wasted your money buying that new battery, unless you got the wrong battery.

 

[mactdi66]

Dan...thanks for responding and I'm sorry for not getting back to you. The next morning after I posted I went to start my computer and it would not work right so I had to take it to the shop and just got it back yesterday.

I'm beginning to feel snakebit...lol.

I will take your advice and pickup a voltage meter...give me a couple of days and I will let you know when I have it...thanks for your help...mac

 

[tdeboeser]

Thanks for this thread!!! It's got me on the right track, I'm not getting 12 volts to the IP solenoid. I do if I use a jumper.

One question reguarding wire testing; will the wire be "hot" with just the ignition on? Or does the car need to be running?

Thanks,

Tom de

 

[DanG144]

It only has voltage for a second or so when the key is turned on, then when you start cranking it should have voltage all the time.

 

[tdeboeser]

Thanks. Tested at the solenoid while cranking. Got 4-5 volts, I figure this could be a wire thing, but where do I look into next?

Thanks again,

Tom de

 

[DanG144]

Thanks. Tested at the solenoid while cranking. Got 4-5 volts, I figure this could be a wire thing, but where do I look into next?

Thanks again,

Tom de

What was your battery voltage during this time (while cranking)?

 

[tdeboeser]

What was your battery voltage during this time (while cranking)?

Battery voltage is 8 while cranking. I'm second owner, and I know the battery is at least 4 years old (probably older). Voltage with key out is 12.0+. It needs replacement, but I'm not sure replacing the battery will help. Thoughts?

I tried directly wiring to the solenoid, heard it trip ( it sounds like solid click ), but still no go. The motor cranks, I get smoke but no start.


Whats a good method to test the clutch/IP solenoid wiring? The wiring goes back to a large connector, hard to tell what happens after that.

Thanks,

Tom de

 

[childishidealism]

Sounds like a battery issue to me. Take it to autozone or similar and have them test. It's free and it will rule out something else causing the voltage drop. When batteries start to die they can't put out enough power and you'll see a voltage drop like that.

 

[tdeboeser]

UGH

Replaced battery. better cranking, and she started after more than a few attempts - I let it crank till she started.


Just went out to start her, just to see... no start .

I know I'm getting fuel. I have the "see thru" fuel line, and I replaced the filter (because I thought that was the problem). I primed the filter by loosening the 3rd fuel line at the head, got fuel all over the place - not much its a fine spray, but had some power to it.

I haven't taken any voltage readings after the new battery, but I feel like I'm lost again. Is there a way to test for bad fuel?

Thanks.

Tom De

 

[DanG144]

Check your cranking voltage again.

I had a new battery and new starter pulling down to 8 volts, and turning over too slow to fire.

It turned out to be an alternator bearing was so badly frozen to the shaft, that it was spinning the bearing housing despite the ears that should have held it. It was machining aluminum alloy out of the alternator with every turn. Periodically it would fall into a region of low resistance and allow it to start. But usually not.

I found this by taking the serpentine belt off; it started right up every time, ran fine, voltage was only dropping down to 11 or so.

 

[l_c]

Tom, can you try cranking using jumper cables (from another vehicle), or else using one of those starter boost units (that plugs in to the 115VAC), and determine whether you get a nice, smooth (not taking long) start-up?

If it still doesn't start nicely (while externally boosted), then I'd think that the battery itself isn't the only issue ...
Larry

 

[mactdi66]

Mac,
What do your interior lights and headlights do as you engage the starter? Do they dim quite a bit?

It could be quite a few things based on what you are saying.

A $20 voltmeter will quickly pay for itself in many ways.

It could be your starter solenoid.
It could be a bad ground.
It could be a bad battery connection. ( I will not assume that you cleaned them when replacing the battery.)
It could be a bad solenoid to starter cable.
It could be a hydrolocked engine.
It could be a draggy engine from some auxiliary component (AC, alternator, power steering pump, bad clutch and in gear.)


Please do not feel that you wasted your money buying that new battery, unless you got the wrong battery.

Dan...I think I'm ready to start on this...I ordered a voltmeter that was supposed to be here on wed. that just got here this afternoon. Nothing fancy...just the basics.

I will fill you in on some checking I have done...
...you asked me to jack the car up and see if I could rotate the the tire in a forward directions with the car in 5th gear
......I did that and the answer is NO, I can't rotate the tire

...also, I believe you asked if I had lights when I tried to start the car a second time after it stopped cranking...I believe I did have lights because the dash lights came on and glow plug light worked as it was supposed to.

I hope this tells you something as far as where I should begin to look..thanks in advance...mac

 

[DanG144]

If you jack up one front wheel, leaving the other on the ground, lock the ebrake, put it in fifth gear then you should be able to rotate the engine slowly with about 30 pounds of force on the tire.

If you cannot do this, then something is wrong. Something is creating excessive friction.

 

[4202cvinc]

Thanks for the help

I am a newbie to the forums. 2003 TDI Golf 145,000 miles. Had to park it for 6 weeks following knee replacement surgery. Couldn't get in and out of the car. After the new knee became a little more flexible, I tried to start the car and....nothing. Followed all the treads, flutter valve fine, RPM turn over fine, but couldn't verify fuel flow. I replaced the fuel filter, bled the lines several times. Ended up buying the MityVac to check the vacum on the lines. Spent as much time trying to establish the leak free seals on the Mity Vac. Finally got good vacum (leak free) through the filter and vented fuel injectors 3 & 4, when the bubbles stopped and the fuel started squirting as your instructions stated, the engine fired. Closed 4 then 3 and the engine started. Just as you stated. Patience is required, as the fuel system is very slow to prime. Heed the starter 10 seconds on, 30 seconds off, and it still took a while. But thanks guys, everything was as you stated.
Some observations with my Golf. Most stable steering I've owned, blew a front tire at 70+ in a curve coming down a mountain in Arizona. Barely a wobble. The car is not as responsive and handlable as my BMW but hey the VW costs less than half the BMW. I have 145,000 miles on the original set of front disc pads... must be gremlins replacing them when I sleep. NEVER have gotten more than 40,000 on front pads. Replace transmition at 60,000 miles. Broke a timeing belt at 83,000. Valves did not impact pistons, infact had two cylinders running when I figured out the problem. Replace timing belt and all is fine. Have taken out 3 oil pans on road hazards. The hird time I was going over 35MPH and the turbo froze. It is hard to diagnose, friends with turbo deisel dodges helped. The turbo is expensive and hard to replace, do not let anyone talk you into a used turbo, it doubles the time and expense. A bad mass air flow sensor will cause the engine to shut down when climbing in altitude, turn the engine off and restart and it will help. Replace the sensor. I got drown in a monsoon storm between Texas and Arizona, it resulted in multiple electrical failures common to the relay responsible for "Comfort" that's not the word, but the relay type escapes me. Found that fuse # 14 or 15 blew, replaced it and saved myself $700.00 at the dealership, as that relay is the first thing they replace. That fuse was $.35. I found out about it in another blog. One line and nothing else. It is a quick check. Have never been able to find a reference to that fuse.
Anyway, thanks guys for your help
Chuck Vincent

 

[Brooklin Express]

No start

I went to start the car this morning 2002 tdi jetta 5spd, and it wouldn't start.
The glow plug light and all other lights come on, checked the egr. When I turn the key I can hear one click then nothing.

I tried boosting samething, I tried jump starting it, car started and then died again.

I have been reading the no start forms and still lost.

Help

 

[rdkern]

Have you tried diagnosing? Do you have a multimeter? Get one if you don't have one. Test the battery voltage at rest and while trying to crank.

What is the history of this car? Did it run the day before with no issues? Have you looked at the starter, wiggled the wires going to it?

You may have two issues here - the no-start (battery system or starter motor or cables) and the "died again" after starting (air in lines?).

 

[Brooklin Express]

The battery is only two month old from dealer. I don't have multimeter.
The car ran great yesterday. Come to think of it the day before at work the car did the same thing on the first try Then started no problem.

I tried putting wire to the starter from the battery and it just clicks.

Is it the starter.

 

[Brooklin Express]

Just back from getting the battery tested at CT. The test said the battery was good 12.73V 665cca.

So does this elminate the alternator?

 

[rdkern]

I hope they did the test under load.
And do yourself a favor - get a multimeter. You can use it to help with several tasks, including trying to find you problem with this vehicle.

You could have a starter problem, might be a wire problem, might be a switch problem. I'd start by playing with the starter, making sure no wires are loose. This thread does have a good approach to finding the problem, but you have to go one step at a time to isolate the issue. Good luck!

 

[Brooklin Express]

They put it on a machine I told him that the car was a TDI.

Now thanks to the group I have ther starter out now I am going to get it tested.

I went to get the starter tested they couldn't do it broken. He told me to use jumper cables on the starter to see if it turns. I did and nothing happen the shaft didn't turn.

I asked him when he tested the battery if it was under load, he said yes.

 

[Brooklin Express]

Up date
I took the starter to work and had it tested the shaft out and turned twice. the tech said it didn't sound to good.
I went to Ararat Automotive on Midwest. He put in on the tester and just the shaft came out and made the click sound.
Rebuilt starter 120.00 one year.

So thanks to this great group I was able to put it back in 30 min. Car started no problem.

Thank again everyone.

 

[rdkern]

It's nice when it's easy. You're welcome for what little I did.

 

[tommytix]

Engine Light possible, not Immobilizer light

This will probably be accompanied by the immobilizer icon. This icon is an outline of the car with a key superimposed on the bottom.

In my case I had the engine light on the dashboard, not the immobilizer
It is possible this was down to a failed ECU pairing to the Instrument Cluster rather that the failure of the immobilizer reader - I had the immobilizer reader changed and at the same time had the ECU swapped out and back in, all by the main dealer, and it worked fine after that.

 

[pkap]

car erratic warm/hot start

Hot start issues are related to fuel. Checked in tank pump for pressure and maintaining that pressure with engine off at fuel filter input. Was o.k. Reconnected tank to fuel filter line and disconnected fuel filter to vacuum/fuel pump return line. With key on, tank pump pumping, there should be no fuel coming out of this return line. If fuel comes out it means fuel return line pressure limiting valve in vac/fuel pump is not maintaining 15 psi. This maintains a force equilibrium at the pump/injector solenoid valve ( per VW page 9 course #841303). I had a small amount of fuel coming out. Replaced pump and erratic starting issues went away.

 

[DanG144]

pkap,
You replaced the tandem pump, correct?
I have seen this several times.
After doing a post mortem on the fuel return line pressure retainging valve I found that it has a bypass orifice built into it.
Yet a new/good pump would not pass fuel when simply running the lift pump.
Careful examination showed that the fuel coming from the return line in this test was a sign of a worn tandem pump. The sealing surfaces in and around the tandem pump are the only thing that completely stops flow.
Replacing the pump when you see flow through the system is still the proper course of action.
I need to update my fuel system pdf -n it I said the same thing you just said.