Can't start. 2002 ALH. Help Needed

[jdog1234]

I need some help. I have a 2002 tdi. I have has it since new. 270k miles. Replaced the turbo myself about a year ago then a few months later it had a diesel fuel leak from the injection pump. I took it to a local vw shop and they replaced seals on the injection pump and when I picked it up and drove it, it seemed like the car was driving in limp mode, but turbo could be heard spinning up. I took it back to the shop and they looked at it and said these cars are just slow. "You probably just forgot how doggy they are". I did some online searching including this form and I found info online about how if they didn't put the cover back in same position the pump quantity adjuster would be off. They read the document and said they tried to adjust it and now the car wouldn't start and the injection pump was definitely bad. They wanted 2500 for a new one IP plus labor. I called around and found a bosch certified place in SLC that would rebuild my IP for 750. The vw repair shop pulled the IP and called me. I took it to the the bosch injection repair shop (CIS) and they rebuilt the pump. I returned the IP to shop and they installed it. Then called me to say that the car was good to go. I picked it up and drove it home. Power was back to normal. The IP repair shop said the IP QA was not adjusted correctly, but they fixed all of that when they rebuilt it.

Two days later while driving to a store the car died while driving. I Pulled over and popped hood and it looked like there wss no fuel in fuel lines going into the IP. I rented a tow dolly and towed to different shop that I found after calling all iver the area asking shops how well they knew TDIs. This shop said they knew them well. IT was a german auto repair shop specializing in VW. They called me back after 'diagnosing the problem' and said the IP rebuild was bad. They pulled the IP and I took it back to CIS. They looked it over hooked it up to their systems and ran it for 3 hours to make sure it was still good. I took the declared good IP it back to vw shop and they put the pump back on car and then called me to say it wouldn't start. They messed with it for a few days and then said they got it running but thought there was an issue with the valve in the fuel sender unit. They said they would replace it for 400 bucks more. I said I could do it. I picked the car up which was still able to start and run and headed home. Now a few grand into thus IP issue and more than frustrated at the lack of knowledge regarding the vw TDIs by the local shops, I was hoping my troubles were behind me. While driving home from this latest repair shop, I noticed my speedo was now not working. I am certain it was before. One more issue to look into I thought. My odometer also was showing 0. I was a little concerned but continued south on the freeway. Then my car lost power. It was still running, but no power. I headed to nearest exit with the pedal floored and it stayed running but wouldn't go over about 2k rpm. I kept going off the freeway but eventualy had to stop at a light and car died and I couldn't start it back up. I pushed it off to a safe spot and later towed it back to my house. I couldn't find anyone who knows what to do in the local area. Most shops just say it's too old to work on or we don't work in Diesel VW. I have since replaced the fuel sender, the fuel lines, the fuel filter. I prime the pump and sometimes can get it to start then it just dies. I have a vagcom. I don't see the immobilizer being triggered. I am not sure what to do. Maybe replace the ecu? Any help and direction would be appreciated.

 

[tgray]

The best way forward is not to guess and throw parts at it. The last known good run you had was taking to the shop. It sounds like they did something wrong. These cars will not run right with out adjusting the quantity on the top part of the pump once that is moved on a seal replacment. Also, These cars will not run right with the smallest air leak in the fuel system. The IQ adjustment needs to be done on the VAG com software when the engine is running to read the numbers. The IQ is controlled by the ECU but if the adjustment is out of range it just hits the mechanical limit. There may be other things they did like knocking a speedo wire off but I doubt you need an ecu or IP rebuild. It may have an air leak on a cracked hose or something when they worked on the seals. Just a tiny ail leak will mess up running and starting. It sounds to me like you need someone that knows what they are doing or do it yourself. I doubt there is an issue on the fuel sender unit. A diagnosis like that seems likely they are just clueless. Look up "hammer mod" on this forum. loosening the bolts and moving the top of the pump around may help put things back into a better position to get things running better. This may help it start better but is sounds like you have an air leak if you need to prime the pump to get it started. Try running getting the car started and running the car off the inlet fuel hose run into a clean jug of fuel. Starting the car with a primed pump and with no filter and one line in will help identify where the air leak is located. Just make sure the hose and fuel are very clean and new. If you can get the car running at all then try messing with the hammer mod. If they were into the pump for seal replacement and didn't know how to adjust the IQ setting I can guarantee it is off. I have marked mine with a line and it still needs adjusting to run right. Too far one way it will run like a slow dog and the other way will have lots of power and run erratic. Check carefully your fuel lines. I had one that looked fine but would loose prime. I gave up and put another used line on and it started and ran fine. It really is hard to tell sometimes.

 

[csstevej]

First off welcome…. And I’m sorry to hear about your issues , but you’ve come to the right place to get help.

On top of what tgray said…..since the pump has been out a couple of times I would definitely recheck the mechanical timing with the correct tools….. I suspect that this wasn’t done .

Normally the cam sprocket is loose , IP sprocket is loose , cam locked , crank locked or verify at TDC and IP pinned in correct hole. I suspect that they just loosened tensioner installed pump and went from there.

Are there any white paint marks on the belt or cam sprocket and IP sprocket ? If yes I’d redo mechanical timing with correct tools.
I personally don’t believe you needed to have the IP rebuilt the first time……IQ was way off when the seals were put on and the ensuing maintenance attempts just compounded your issues.

 

[AndyBees]

To be clear, the OP had the IP rebuilt .......... then, took it back! They tested it for 3 hours. Surely they set the IQ properly.

Yes, I agree there may be an air leak.

I agree with what Csstevej is saying. If the goof-balls at the shop did not re-install the IP properly, well, that can be a major mistake.
Yes, look for white paint to see if they Marked & never Prayed.

I agree that the IP did not need to be rebuilt. The shop did say the Quantity Adjuster was not set properly but they went ahead and rebuilt (re-sealed, cooper washers, etc.) for $750. You can bet the farm they never did anything for the internal pump (vanes), cam plate, plunger, delivery valves, etc. These IPs are not really rocket science to disassemble/re-assembly. Having the parts and equipment to do the tests is the key (and yes, some basic knowledge via appropriate training).

I'm presently doing major work to my '03 with 278k on the body and 328k on the '01 engine in it. The engine starts and runs fine. It sits parked months at a time, but always starts and runs just fine. The same can be said of my formerly owned 2000 Jetta at 388k miles on it. My son owns it now.

The 02 ALH engine in my 84 Vanagon has about 210k miles on it. I've not driven it in months and months. But, it does start just fine.

OP, check the Trusted Mechanics list for someone in your neck of the woods.

 

[tgray]

Was the pump actually removed from the car for the rebuild? Or did they just replace some seals with the pump in the car?

 

[csstevej]

Yes it was

“The vw repair shop pulled the IP and called me. I took it to the the bosch injection repair shop (CIS) and they rebuilt the pump. I returned the IP to shop and they installed it. Then called me to say that the car was good to go. I picked it up and drove it home. Power was back to normal. The IP repair shop said the IP QA was not adjusted correctly, but they fixed all of that when they rebuilt it.”

 

[jdog1234]

That is correct, the Injection Pump service shop rebuilt the pump and had the tools to correctly tune it. I will look for white marks and try to see if when the pump was reinstalled if they checked the mechanical timing. I replaced all of the fuel lines after getting the car home after the not so great vw shop experiences. I also replaced the fuel sender unit. The only part of the fuel lines I have not replaced is the hard line portions that go from the flex lines back to the sender unit. I will try priming and running off a clean external source directly into IP intake.

The hammer mod is the info I sent to the first shop who replaced the seals then returned the car to me with poor power performance. It was after attempting that procedure that they then called me to say the car wouldn't start and the IP was therefore bad.

 

[sisyphus]

If the first shop didn’t have vcds no information about the hammer mod is going to help them.

 

[KrashDH]

If the first shop didn’t have vcds no information about the hammer mod is going to help them.

To piggy back on this, if a shop doesn't have VCDS, IMO they are not qualified to work on these cars. It's vital.

 

[J_dude]

To piggy back on this, if a shop doesn't have VCDS, IMO they are not qualified to work on these cars. It's vital.

Agreed, VCDS should be a minimum requirement

 

[tgray]

Sorry I didn't read your explanation very carefully about taking the pump off for the rebuild, I then wrote and posted my question before I saw Andy already responded.
Even if the lines are replaced, the connection seal going into the hard pipes back to the tank can leak or at the fuel filter valve. Sometimes I have taken the flexible hose and connected it straight to the hard pipe using the hose to make the seal. Pulling clean fuel from a bucket straight to the pump can help diagnose the problem and as stated above, check the timing marks.
When you prime the pump did you loosen an injector nut or 2 on the injector? It should give a good spray of fuel out when cranking and it is primed. If it is just bubbles then you have air in the line/pump. If you have a suction line straight to a bucket and you find you are still getting air in the injector lines (with the line nuts cracked open) you have something wrong with the IP pump. Everything you describe sounds like air getting in somehow. You said it looked like there was no fuel going into the lines one time you pulled over. All it takes is a tiny bubble in the high pressure side to be squeezed and the injector will not pop to spray out the fuel correctly.

 

[AndyBees]

This is an I V set-up that I did at last 10 years ago. It works great feeding fuel from above the engine. It can be set-up to feed thru the filter or directly to the IP. Either way, you have to make sure the return fuel goes back to the container. The IP internal Vane Pump really moves a lot of fuel in a very short time (got to see it to believe it).

Materials

- Jif Peanut Butter jar (quart size is best)
- Hose
- Plastic elbow to fit hose
- One or more shut-off valves
- In-line gasoline filter (see bottom of Jif Peanut Butter jar)
- Long slim bolt to attach to the center of the lid for hanging purposes (make what works best for you)
- Plugs to plug the I V hoses when finished and storing
- JB Weld.

Drill a hole in the center of the bottom of the plastic jar. After preparing the jar and filter for JB Weld, push the filter end up into the Jar. Do not cut off any of the filter nipple. It is best that it extends up off the bottom of the Jar.

Drill a hole in the side of the jar near the top for the plastic elbow (JB Weld it) ...... see pic.

JB Weld is extremely compatible with Diesel Fuel and any of the common additives.

Make darn certain you tighten the lid before using and/or after each refill. A mess can be made in a heart beat and dangerous too.

 

[jdog1234]

Thank you all for you input. I put together a test setup like your peanut butter jar setup. Just waiting for JB weld to cure then will see if I can find if there is an air leak. I will look into timing as well.

 

[jdog1234]

I setup the peanut butter fuel tank and guess what my car has risen from the dead. I first tried bypassing the fuel filter and got it running. Then I connected the peanut butter fuel setup going through the fuel filter and it runs for a few minutes and then stops. I noticed when Goin through the fuel filter no return fuel was coming back. Into the peanut butter fuel tank. Investigating that now. Could a bad mickey mouse connector cause that?

 

[csstevej]

Sounds like you have a bad fuel filter……if it runs without the filter but doesn’t when you hook your external fuel source to the filter….. something is impeding the fuel……could be a defective filter…..

 

[tgray]

Could be a plugged line or check valve in the tank? Sounds like you are getting close and way better than rebuilding a fuel pump. You should get a pretty good flow back through the return line when running.

 

[jdog1234]

I primed and then bleed the injector lines again and was able to get it running again through the fuel filter but the return line coming out of the fuel filter into my make shift peanut butter fuel tank was just dribbling return. Then I thought, maybe it's because most of the return fuel is going into the fuel filter and not to the return line coming off of the filter that was run to peanut butter fuel tank. When I connected the fuel tank setup directly to the injection pump then the amount of fuel returning to my peanut butter is fairly large volume. Is my assumption correct that the fuel is just mostly returning to the fuel filter and is that normal?

 

[Vince Waldon]

Yup, the vast amount of fuel sent to the injection pump simply cools the pump and is returned to the filter and/or fuel tank (depending on what the thermotee decides).

This is why pre-filling the fuel filter with injector cleaner does little actual hard-core injector cleaning... almost all of it goes back to get diluted in the tank.

 

[jdog1234]

So it seems my air leak is not in the front fuel lines or injection pump. I also already replaced the fuel sender unit. My 2002 jetta is manual so no fuel cooler on that model.
I must be getting the air leak in the fuel line between firewall and tank or the connectors on the fuel lines. I am having a hard time finding stock fuel lines to replace those. I see some that work with the cars that had the fuel coolers but not without. Any suggestions? And any input on how hard is it to run the new fuel lines?

 

[tgray]

It is not too hard to replace the lines from one in a salvage yard (or I have used a section to splice into a crushed one). I have never seen the lines fail from age but only the connection or seal part. Maybe someone crushed it on a lift? The lines behave like pex tubing. You can warm them up and insert barb fittings into them when they get soft. Then they will harden back up when cooled. The lines run down through passage ways down under the car and back up into the tank opening under the back seat. Really the problem will be found in one supply line as if the problem was in the return line it would dump fuel out. Try substituting the little jumper line from the filter to the 90 degree elbow before it goes down by the firewall with a straight rubber hose and clamp. If there is still a problem then you know it is farther on down. It sounds like you are almost there.

 

[jdog1234]

I don't see anything crushed. I think it could be connectors. There are a lot of the fast connection fittings. Does anyone know of a source for the connectors that snap onto the fuel sending unit? It would be nice to get some but if I can't find any I will use a splice to rubber fuel line and clamp it on with a little hose clamp.

 

[jdog1234]

I found the air leak I believe. The quick connector to hard nylon feed line. To test I used a little break bleeding vacuum hand pump to pump fuel from the tank. It didn't hold vacuum when going through the quick connect fitting. I connected a new fuel directly to the hard nylon line and tested pumping fuel out with the vacuum pump again. This time the vacuum held. I left it for 10 minutes with no loss of vacuum.
I was exited to find this and wanted to test running off the cars own fuel tank so I ran new rubber line from the hard nylon fuel lines to the fuel filter. Primed the pump again, bled the injector lines and started the car. It fired right up.
I ran the motor in the garage, with the door open of course, for about 10 minutes. I decided to take a drive around the block. As I pulled out of the garage I reved the car and rpms rose up to and a little beyond 2000 rpm. Still seems to not have full power. I could hear the turbo spin up yet it acted like it is in limp mode, no boost. I decided to not take the test drive around the block until I did some more tshooting. I reved the engine some more to see if I could get the turbo to kick in and a little over 2000 rpm it lost power and died. It was like it had air in the lines again, but the lines looked free of bubbles and were full of fuel. I tried bleeding the lines again, but still no start. I tried priming the pump again using a mighty vac on the return outlet then bleeding the injection lines again. I couldn't get it to start again.

I took a break from working on this car and changed the oil in my other car. Then tried the IV setup on the tdi again. Fuel straight from my IV setup direct to the ip with the return going back into the iv jug. I primed the ip and bleeding the injector lines again. The car started! I let it idol for 10 minutes or so. Then I tested reving the engine up again. It behaved like before. It seemed to run and you could hear the turbo spin up but no boost. When I tried to rev the car up beyond 2000 it just died again. No air bubbles in the setup, and it would start again. I tried priming the ip again and bleeding the injector lines. No luck, it still would not start. It acted like it wasn't getting enough fuel. Would the little filter in by iv setup restrict fuel flow enough to cause issues. Any one have suggestions on what might be my problem now and what to check next?

 

[csstevej]

I’m glad that you found the air leak…..but I think you have more than one issue.
You never did report if there was any white marks on the timing belt when they removed and reinstalled the IP.
And when they installed it , was it done with the proper lock down tools?
Any chance you can get ahold of someone with Vcds and scan the car?

 

[jdog1234]

I have a vcds. I hadn't gotten it started till today so hadn't scanned it. I can scan and see if there are recorded codes.

 

[tgray]

Codes can help tell the story if it relates to the sensors. It sounds like you are having a boost problem and the car goes into limp mode. This would trigger a code. However, a turbo problem will not cause a no start condition. I would think your fuel filter set up should work fine and you have another issue. Check and make sure no one plugged up the n75 vent line that should go into your air cleaner.
Check the timing on the computer while you are in checking the codes.
I had one behave like yours once and the valve lifters would stick when I would throttle the engine up. It would spit and kick like a bad fuel pump and die with no codes. It would loose compression until the oil bled off. It would always restart though. New lifters cured it and I am still driving it with over 360,000

 

[jdog1234]

Tgray and cstevej thanks for your suggestions. I will get the codes and check the vac lines and n75. The vac lines were all replaced 10k miles or less when the turbo was replaced so I don't suspect them, but never hurts to check. Sensors could have issues. I will look at timing as well. Your description sounds similar so could be valve lifter or something similar. At least I get to learn alot in this process.

 

[Smokin' Dually]

You mention bleeding the lines after a no start, are you finding air in the lines when you do that?

 

[jdog1234]

No I was just trying anything to see if it would start. The lines had no visible bubbles. When I moved from my normal fuel setup to my iv peanut jar fuel setup. I primed and bled the lines to make sure no air was introduce. But when it died and wouldn't start these last few times I didn't see any air in the lines.

 

[AndyBees]

Jdog1234, I would stick with the Peanut Butter Jar I V set-up until you iron out the issues with starting and running (idling).
The I V set-up is basically fool-proof. I'd bleed the injector lines at the injectors..... all four of them.

As mentioned previously, there will be a huge amount of fuel returning to the Peanut Butter Jar. At 70 mph on level ground, your TDI is only sipping fuel at the rate of about 2.56 ounces per mile, (50 miles per gallon) .... (128/50= 2.56). So, as Vance Waldon said, the vast amount of the fuel provides cooling and lubrication for the pump.

Once you get the engine running properly with the I V set-up, you need to solve the problem(s) as to why all this happened. There have been lots of suggestions. Make you a list and begin checking it off...........maybe like Santa Claus, check it twice.... and more!

 

[jdog1234]

I did get time today to hook up my vcds and scan the car. Not while running but it did have some codes recorded.



Mileage: 423790km-263330mi Repair Order:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 9M (9M - VW Jetta IV (1998 > 2014))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57
75 76

VIN: 3VWSP69M32M004814 Mileage: 423790km-263330miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.clb
Part No: 038 906 012 FD
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G000SG 4102
Coding: 00002
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 57EB806EA61F17A3FA8-4B1E
3VWSP69M32M004814 VWZ7Z0A3661417

2 Faults Found:
17946 - Fuel Shutoff Solenoid (N109)
P1538 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Ground
19561 - Valve for Intake Manifold Flap (N239)
P3105 - 35-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ABS.lbl
Part No: 1C0 907 379 J
Component: ABS FRONT MK60 0103
Coding: 0004097
Shop #: WSC 23011 444 53239
VCID: 313F1EF6ED3B299354C-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 6Q0 909 605 F
Component: 04 AIRBAG VW6 0202 0004
Coding: 12340
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 3A2D39DA354DEACBE56-513C

1 Fault Found:
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 1J0-907-487-A.lbl
Part No: 1J0 907 487 B
Component: Lenkradelektronik 0002
Coding: 00008
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 30391BF2E331209B5B2-51CE

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1J0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 1J0 920 906 L
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V58
Coding: 07232
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 313F1EF6E83B299354C-513C
3VWSP69M32M004814 VWZ7Z0A3661417

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.clb
Part No: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 70B9DBF223B1609B1B2-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
Component: 1H Komfortgerát HLO 0004
Coding: 00258
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 372B20EE065FF7A31A8-4B1E

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801A
Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0002

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802A
Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0002

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811A
Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.HL KLO 0002

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812A
Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.HR KLO 0002

16 Faults Found:
01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393)
53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01334 - Door Control Module; Rear Right (J389)
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
00928 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Front Driver Side (F220)
54-10 - Incorrectly Equipped - Intermittent
00929 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Front Passenger Side (F221)
54-10 - Incorrectly Equipped - Intermittent
00930 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Rear Left (F222)
54-10 - Incorrectly Equipped - Intermittent
00931 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Rear Right (F223)
54-10 - Incorrectly Equipped - Intermittent
01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386)
53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386)
52-10 - Supply Voltage Too High - Intermittent
01332 - Door Control Module; Passenger Side (J387)
53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01332 - Door Control Module; Passenger Side (J387)
52-10 - Supply Voltage Too High - Intermittent
01359 - Internal Central Locking Switch; Passenger Side (E198)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01333 - Door Control Module; Rear Left (J388)
53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01333 - Door Control Module; Rear Left (J388)
52-10 - Supply Voltage Too High - Intermittent
00930 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Rear Left (F222)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01334 - Door Control Module; Rear Right (J389)
53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01334 - Door Control Module; Rear Right (J389)
52-10 - Supply Voltage Too High - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 1J0-035-18x-56.clb
Part No: 1JM 035 157 A
Component: Radio DE2 0005
Coding: 02041
Shop #: WSC 00066
[LIST]
[*] VCID: 3E2535CA2965C6EBD9E-51F2
[/LIST]

2 Faults Found:
00856 - Radio Antenna
36-00 - Open Circuit
65535 - Internal Control Module Memory Error
00-00 - -

End----------(Elapsed Time: 05:12, VBatt start/end: 12.3V/12.3V)-----------




These two 2 Faults are ones I've not see in previous scans.
17946 - Fuel Shutoff Solenoid (N109)
P1538 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Ground
19561 - Valve for Intake Manifold Flap (N239)
P3105 - 35-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent


I'm going to try my best to follow your advise and stay with the IV setup until I get the problems uncovered. My checklist currently is

• To check the vacuum lines and the n75 valve to make sure they seem to be functioning properly.
• Check the turbo actuator that it functions when vacuum is applied
• Look for white mark on timing belt
• Check the timing
• Check power to fuel shutoff valve which I had already done, but I've yet to pull it out and see if the plunger is having issues or the o-ring has slid down so will check that as well.

Happy to add suggestions to the list but at least I've got some things to check.