Cannot get to timing screen on VAGCOM?

vtpsd

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I have my AHU running in my audi 90. Took it for its first drive, ran great, but then started running a little rough on acceleration.

Not sure what was going on, I brought it into the shop and decided to try and check timing. I switch to 000, basic setting and it runs very rough, but I never get the "TDI timing" button.

I tried it on my ALH car, and got the screen and graph, no issue.

If the timing is WAY off will it not even get the option to go to timing?

Strangly the car ran great at first, but now starts a little hard and runs a little rough.

I am also wondering if a plugged fuel filter could do this. Maybe some left over crap from the gasoline tank got into the filter?
 

Seatman

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If you can't get the graph that must be an obd port/connection issue or something I'd have thought.

But I'd definitely try a filter seeing as it was running well
 

vtpsd

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I am having no issues communicating with any thing else in VAGCOM. Everything works great, just do not ever see the TDI timing button. My generic OBD tool also reads it just fine.
I just advanced the timing a bunch and it runs better, and starts better. Also changed the filter, but I dont think there was any issue there.
 

vtpsd

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here is what I see when i go into basic settings. When I hook it up to my ALH I see a TDI Timing button on the lower left side. But nothing when hooked to the AHU.


here are some other shots of it running


 

vtpsd

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I am also confused when I took it for a short jaunt, it was running great. I was very pleased with it, but after a couple miles it started to run like it was very retarted. It would idle just fine but stumble when you step on the accelerator.

I just advanced the timing pretty much to the top of the window and it runs much better, like it should I think, but I cannot figure out
1) why I cant see the timing button and
2) what changed in that short drive?

Static timing all looks exactly the same as when I started, but looks good, timing marks look good.
 

vtpsd

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i rechecked my timing, and it looked very good. I advanced the pump one tooth, but then got this error, so I think my original timing was correct.


Man, this is bumming me out. The car was running so well, now it is not as happy. I wish I could verify timing via vagcom.
 

Steve Addy

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You have a tuned ECU correct?

Have you ever been able to get to the timing graph with the tuned ecu?

Steve
 

kooyajerms

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Seeing the graph is not necessary for timing. You can look at block 2 while in 000 basic settings, and get a "range" to be above the midline(advanced) Can you advance it to see 50-70? Yours says 003. We.todd.did. Mine is set at 55, just above mid (my preference, some like it at the top)

BTW, what about the graph button on the lower right? Is that not the timing graph?

Which ECU is this? Not sure if a BK is an issue or has obd-I tendencies. I know it says Jb but that could just be the tuning chips.
 
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vtpsd

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I will check that tonight. thank you for the insight. The ecu is indeed a JB. I will also try the stock chips to see if the timing button pops up. I have read some old threads where this happened because of a tune.

It ran to me like it was retarded, popping a little bit, smoking some, starting harder than it ususally does.

The kicker is it ran really well at first, even with coolant temps up, but when I got about 4 miles on it, it started running badly. Not sure if fuel temp got warm enough to pull the timing a bit and that was enough overall retard to make it run badly?

So many variables. The tank was quite low on fuel, so i would think the fuel started to warm up some.

A quick compression check says the engine was still at its original numbers before I drove it.

The graph button is not the timing graph, its a running log of a bunch of stuff vs time.
 
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vtpsd

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video of it after I had it driving, and it sat for a few minutes. You can hear it run terribly when I click the "switch to basic settings" button and you can see field #2 go straight to 255, which seems pegged, but maybe that means its so retarded it cant even tell where it is?

Also, before I hit "switch to basic settings" you can see the timing jumping all over the place, not sure if that is normal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lno7B05uHH8
 
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Stromaluski

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Watching this thread, as I've had the same issue in the past. Just kept trying it and the button showed up. Not a clue what I was doing differently.
 

whitedog

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Did the AHU have cam (edit: Crank) gear problems? What is the history of the pump? Have you sent a message to Ross Tech to get their opinion on the timing graph button?
 
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vtpsd

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Did the AHU have cam gear problems? What is the history of the pump? Have you sent a message to Ross Tech to get their opinion on the timing graph button?
I am not aware of any problems with the cam gears on this engine.

I emailed with my tuner and he said that this sometimes happens in heavily tuned older ECU's. I can simply set my timing using field #2 of basic settings, as stated a few posts above.

I don't know much history of the pump of this car, but i would consider it suspect. It has run veggie oil at some point (not by me!!), but I don't know how long. I know the pump was brand new and was only used for a couple years before I bought the mk3 jetta and pulled the engine.

I am definitely open to the possibility that the pump is no good, and have no problem replacing it with another if that is what it takes. I just want to make sure I have it set up and timed right before jumping to that conclusion.

The pump was very clean inside when I replaced the seals, and it was running well in the mk3. I made sure to run clean, treated diesel straight from a fuel can for about 45 minutes before I pulled the engine from the AHU and it sat in my shop on a stand.
 
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GTiTDi

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video of it after I had it driving, and it sat for a few minutes. You can hear it run terribly when I click the "switch to basic settings" button and you can see field #2 go straight to 255, which seems pegged, but maybe that means its so retarded it cant even tell where it is?

Also, before I hit "switch to basic settings" you can see the timing jumping all over the place, not sure if that is normal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lno7B05uHH8

It is running poorly when switched to basic settings because the timing is way off and the computer has compensated...you need to recheck your static timing.
 

whitedog

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I meant to say crank gear, not cam gear, sorry.

Did the pump still have the yellow paint marks on the security bolts and such?
 

vtpsd

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I meant to say crank gear, not cam gear, sorry.

Did the pump still have the yellow paint marks on the security bolts and such?
I think the AHU is ok with the crank gear, and a quick check of my static timing looked to be the same as where I set it originally. Its a little tricky since I am using an audi 80 flywheel and a transmission from a diesel a4, but the timing marks on the flywheel look right and checked out by feeling for piston movement through the glow plug hole on #1.

It is running poorly when switched to basic settings because the timing is way off and the computer has compensated...you need to recheck your static timing.
This makes perfect sense. The only things confusing me now are

1) you can see my timing in #2 jumping over the place, not steady like on other cars I have checked, and
2) why did it run and drive well, then begin to run badly. This is confusing and would seem more like a physical slip in timing or another mechanical problem with the pump.

I am probably overthinking this. I will reset all static timing tonight, and try to set my timing using field #2 in basic settings and then see where I am.

Engine needs to be fully warmed to set timing I assume, so I will probably need to drive it again since it really doesn't get very warm just idling in the shop. Not too happy about driving it with totally unknown timing and or other issues.
 

Steve Addy

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I think the AHU is ok with the crank gear, and a quick check of my static timing looked to be the same as where I set it originally. Its a little tricky since I am using an audi 80 flywheel and a transmission from a diesel a4, but the timing marks on the flywheel look right and checked out by feeling for piston movement through the glow plug hole on #1.



This makes perfect sense. The only things confusing me now are

1) you can see my timing in #2 jumping over the place, not steady like on other cars I have checked, and
2) why did it run and drive well, then begin to run badly. This is confusing and would seem more like a physical slip in timing or another mechanical problem with the pump.

I am probably overthinking this. I will reset all static timing tonight, and try to set my timing using field #2 in basic settings and then see where I am.

Engine needs to be fully warmed to set timing I assume, so I will probably need to drive it again since it really doesn't get very warm just idling in the shop. Not too happy about driving it with totally unknown timing and or other issues.
I'd have a tendency to agree with GTITDI's comments on this.

If you're worried about warming up the engine while running poorly I'd do the following:

Swap back to JB chips - the JB is a good ECU
Recheck static timing - reset timing belt to factory specifications
check with VCDS - TDI timing button? What does graph show?
Adjust pump timing - per VCDS if necessary.

Only then would I swap back to the performance chips. If performance is ok and then degrades again I would question the tuning chips and go back to the company that did the tune with questions about what the tune is and what it was designed to work with.

At this point between the tuned ECU chips and the moved timing belt 'one tooth' situation you're at a point where it would be difficult (at least for me) to diagnose and fix something without undoing what you have now and moving back to a stock situation.

Steve
 

vtpsd

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Yes steve, I agree. I was in a fit last night. I will restart tonight by swapping back to stock chips, resetting factory mechanical timing, checking crank pulley for wobble. And then look for timing with VCDS.
 

Steve Addy

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Yes steve, I agree. I was in a fit last night. I will restart tonight by swapping back to stock chips, resetting factory mechanical timing, checking crank pulley for wobble. And then look for timing with VCDS.
We all have fits, you just have to work through them. I find it really difficult to do that sometimes.

Good luck and I hope you're next posts have positive news.

Steve
 

Seatman

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Just remembered a friends mk3 with the ahu lump, did a similar thing where it would run rough every so often, seemed to be a problem with the connections in the big round multiplug for that has the wiring for the pump etc. Wasn't making very good contact on some of the pins.
Not sure if maybe dialectic grease could help if that's an issue
 

vtpsd

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Update:

I took the timing belt completely off, broke the cam sprocket loose and reset everything. Started it back up, exact same symptoms.

Then I swapped back the stock chips, started it, exact same problems when I hit "switch to basic settings".

I then advanced the pump all the way to the top and checked...and low and behold, I have a timing graph, and it shows I was at about 45 and holding steady. Seemed to run much better, but ran out of time for a test drive.

So my theory is that I am going by a zero timing mark on the flywheel, but the flywheel is from an audi 80, the trans is from an a4 TDI and the engine is a 98 jetta. It would seem that maybe my method of lining up the crank timing is wrong.

There isnt really a pointer in the window, but there is a straight edge that you are supposed to line the marks on the audi up with. I am wondering if something is lost in translation between these three parts.

My next plan is to reset timing again and put the crank back one tooth and try again. It would seem that if I get timing on the retarded side when fully advanced, the crank probably could come back one tooth and it should be in the middle of the range.

Is this logical thinking? If I had a dial indicator it would be nice to verify true TDC and then make a real mark in the bellhousing.
 

turbodieseldyke

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Can you find TDC without a dial indicator, by dropping a chopstick/whatever through the glow plug hole, and seeing where it peaks, and then making your mark on the flywheel?
 

Steve Addy

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The line on the flywheel should be TDC. When I converted my VW Fox to diesel I used the flywheel that was on the Fox 1.8L engine and that line with the 0 next to it was TDC. I matched it up to my used diesel flywheel and it was exactly the same place as the TDC mark.

When you setup your initial timing does the belt hit the IP sprocket perfectly or do you have to rotate the sprocket slightly (a half tooth) toward the front of the car? I've always had to lean a little on the IP lock pin to get the belt teeth to drop in at the sprocket. Once the belt is on the IP though I can let loose of the pin and the sprocket rotates back to where it was.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not understanding why you're moving the crank position by one tooth? That seems to me to be non-compliant with factory specs for setting timing TBH.

Steve
 

kooyajerms

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Your logic sounds fair, but I'd verify tdc before adjusting that crank a tooth. I do like the idea, if it's necessary because of the flywheel/transmission deal, but last resort.

Also, on vag com if timing shows 255 yes iit can mean it's overly retarded, not just overly advanced.
 

vtpsd

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Your logic sounds fair, but I'd verify tdc before adjusting that crank a tooth. I do like the idea, if it's necessary because of the flywheel/transmission deal, but last resort.

Also, on vag com if timing shows 255 yes iit can mean it's overly retarded, not just overly advanced.
I am going to try and verify TDI through the #1 injection hole with the probe end of my calipers, and hoping to find that the mark i used is off about a tooth.

I think my timing number were crazy for 2 reasons:
1) When I was adjusting the pump, I only tightened one of the front bolts, and did not tighten the single rear pump bolt. I think this causes the pump to vibrate and give wacky numbers. I remember this from my 1.6td days. If that rear bolt worked loose, the car would have erratic power on the top end, like the timing was moving all over.

2) You are correct, 255 is definitely displayed when the timing is way too retarded. It didn't start spitting out numbers that made any sense until I started getting near the top of the advance range on the pump slots, then I could see timing numbers that started to make sense, and rose as I increased the advance.
 

vtpsd

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Can you find TDC without a dial indicator, by dropping a chopstick/whatever through the glow plug hole, and seeing where it peaks, and then making your mark on the flywheel?
I can get pretty close, this is how I verified the mark originally. My fingers are not sensitive enough to get it perfect though. I can probably get with a couple teeth. I need something more sensitive to really know.
 

vtpsd

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The line on the flywheel should be TDC. When I converted my VW Fox to diesel I used the flywheel that was on the Fox 1.8L engine and that line with the 0 next to it was TDC. I matched it up to my used diesel flywheel and it was exactly the same place as the TDC mark.

When you setup your initial timing does the belt hit the IP sprocket perfectly or do you have to rotate the sprocket slightly (a half tooth) toward the front of the car? I've always had to lean a little on the IP lock pin to get the belt teeth to drop in at the sprocket. Once the belt is on the IP though I can let loose of the pin and the sprocket rotates back to where it was.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not understanding why you're moving the crank position by one tooth? That seems to me to be non-compliant with factory specs for setting timing TBH.

Steve
I think the mark on the flywheel is correct, I compared it to the VW flywheel, but I am thinking that the window in the transmission might be a little different. Not sure on that. This is why I want to verify real TDC with something precise.

I do have to lean on the lock pin some to get it together like you describe.

My whole reason for thinking that my method of reading the TDC timing from the flywheel might be flawed is that I need to advance the pump to the very end of its range to get a timing number around 45. I could probably get it right by just advancing the injection pump by one tooth and setting it near the middle of its adjustment range.

I figured that verifying where the real TDC is was a good first check. If I find my marks to be correct, I think i will jump the IP sprocket forward and readjust.

I assume a worn pump could require much more advance to get it in spec? So that is a possibility, but I am not ready to conclude that until I figure out real crankshaft TDC. The pump does not give any other indicators of any problems at this point.

I'm closing in on it, I will get much more info tonight.
 

kooyajerms

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We like these threads where the OP is proactive with fixes, can't wait for the next update.
 
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