Camplate - Plunger - Nozzle Combination Diagrams

Alleslowbuged

Active member
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Location
NRW Germany
TDI
Golf MK2 TD
Hi,

MK1-83 send me a link to a diagram with measured camplate profile of a set of DI-camplates (I have also seen it in another thread here somewere, but can not find it again)

https://postimg.org/image/3lt7w2fbl/
I have done a lot of fettling with IDI pumps for VW and BMW and have also make some measurements and graphs for different combination of camplates and plungers. But with IDI engines the resistance of the nozzle is much lower so you can use the same nozzles for 75hp and 190hp.

As a result i start thinking if it would not be beneficial to try to cover the possible combinations of a set of "camplates - plunger - nozzle" a bit more analytic and try to come up with tables and graphs like:

- stroke vs. degree of pump rotation
- flow vs. degree of pump rotation
- flow vs. time
- mg / stroke (ecu unit) vs. stroke (camplate)
- mg / stroke (ecu unit) vs. mV (ecu output)
- expected injection pressure
- etc.

I am not sure if i will be able to come up with all this information in valid form, but i am sure i will be able to set up the needed excel file and calcuation code. So if some of you could provide some real life measurements to make some tuning for the flow efficiency and leakage rate, i can imagine that we could come up with decent graphs, which shoud be very helpfull to define the stup upfront an engine built.


to have the thread a bit mor shiny from the start up:

here is a pic from a 1.6TD vs 1.9 TDI (AFN) camplate
http://s702.photobucket.com/user/euro-styler/media/ESP Umbau/P1010018-1.jpg.html


here is theoretical fuel vs stroke (simplified)
http://s702.photobucket.com/user/euro-styler/media/ESP Umbau/Frdergeschwindigkeit_ESP.jpg.html


here is theoretical fuel vs rotation angle (simplified)
http://s702.photobucket.com/user/eu...Foumlrdergeschwindigkeit_zps6ad598f1.jpg.html
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
P.S.

Here is a link to a "How to mod a mechanical injection pump"
(its german but there are a lot of pictures of all internal parts with decription)
http://www.golf1.info/forum/index.p...e-4-neu-mit-ausführlicher-einstell-anleitung/

I have allready setup an excel file with some calculations for the mech. injection pump, which will also suit for the electronic pumps, as they are only a simpler copy of the mech. pumps and will add "nozzles" as additionally parts of the systems as first step.
 

named tintin

Veteran Member
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Jan 21, 2007
Location
quebec, canada
TDI
golf tdi
This is not all about fuel quantity, flow, pressure or etc... the key for a diesel engine is the duration of injection in Crank °, the window where you can inject fuel is quite small, you don't only need more fuel, you need more fuel in that window.

For example, you can have an 12mm plunger with an IDI profiled camplate to get the same result as a more aggressive DI camplate with a 10mm plunger, you'll get the same quantity inside the same ° of duration, max quantity about the same too. Of course, a DI cam with 12mm is the best.

I've played a lot with this in the past, and the best Bosch camplate to use is the later AHU, ALH and auto ALH, there is some camplate that are more aggressive than that, but very hard to find, and from experience, they don't last as long when heavily sollicited. There's also the delivery valve to take into account, some of them will not pass more fuel than what they are designed for, you'll get in the ''hydro-lock'' territory.
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
De664 3.35 mm lift almost same profiel as de143
De681 3.4 lift bit more agressiver

Im drive 4 year long with oem 12mm and de143 to 5700 rpm
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
DE637 from cummins 4bt 12mm head have 3.2 mm lift
DE643 from iveco 2.8 12mm head have 3.2mm lift
DE657 from lt 2.8 mexico 12mm head and 3.2mm lift

It looks like all 12mm ve pumps for cars have 3.2mm lift
Only the DE664 from kia have 3.35mm lift
De681 from perkins generator have 3.4mm lift with 12mm head
DE660 from Avia a80 have agressive profiel and 3.4 lift 12mm head
 

Alleslowbuged

Active member
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Jan 5, 2016
Location
NRW Germany
TDI
Golf MK2 TD
@ named tintin

yes for sure, it all about transient behaviour not maximum absolut fuel amount. Beside the old 1.6 pumps with 9,0mm plunger and soft camplate (2,2 or 2,5mm stroke) all combination can easily provide the needed fuel for more than 220kW even with poor engine efficiency. A TDI pump with 12mm plunger could theoretical provide fuel for more than 400kW (only speaken for the pump alone)

The diagrams from the first post did show exactly what you described.
As example:
For IDI engines the optimum combination from my expirience is AAZ-camplate (3,05 mm stroke and approximate 19° lobe angle) with 11mm plunger, but you get nearly the same flowrates with an AFN-camplate (3,1mm stroke and approximate 28° lobe angle) and 9,0 mm plunger or TD-camplate (2,2 mm stroke and approximate 16° lobe angel).

I was running my AAZ with the TD / 12mm combination and the engine runs easily above 6000rpm and provide decent power to up 5500 rpm+, but you could not use the same combination for TDI, as the flow rate would way to low (equal to a TDI pump with an 9,0mm plunger downgrade). The issue is, that a TDI / 12mm combination will be limited for revs, due to dynamic behaviour of the plunger (inertia). So to build a pump for an VE TDI and 6000rpm is a diffrent story and all this is, what my idea was for this thread. I would like to come up with some "hard numbers" as addition and in line with the group experience, which is availabe here in the Forum. Due to the fact that the TDI have the possibility to log a number of engine and pump measurements at the same time, i hope it will be possible to tune a code to be able to predict roughly the behaviour of the system, before running it.

@MK1-83
thanks

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
mine 12mm pump revs to 5700 rpm with de143 3.3mm lift camplate im use 2 pd liftpumps and pd fuelcooler
 

GOFAST

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
nederland
TDI
vento afn
interesting thread.

I've played a lot with this in the past, and the best Bosch camplate to use is the later AHU, ALH and auto ALH, there is some camplate that are more aggressive than that, but very hard to find, and from experience, they don't last as long when heavily sollicited.
how about 2 stoke oil as addition to the diesel ?
that's what I do.

There's also the delivery valve to take into account, some of them will not pass more fuel than what they are designed for, you'll get in the ''hydro-lock'' territory.
how can we mod that ?

I want a pump able to rev till 5700 rpm.
going to need it.
 

mk1-83

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LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Last edited:

Alleslowbuged

Active member
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Location
NRW Germany
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Golf MK2 TD
Hi,

regarding the delivery valves, are you sure that the information from dieseltruckresource are regarding DI pumps. The delivery from IDI and DI pumps do not have the same design.

The IDI delivery valves looks like the ones shown in the second and third thread you posted. There are two IDI designs:

First is short plug with non return plunger - spring
When they close, at the end of the injection period, they enlarge the volume between the delivery valve and the injection nozzle, which causes a sudden and safe close of the injection nozzle. They also avoid that the pressure in the injection line is decreased to much and keep seomething like 60-75 bar (can't remeber) in the injection line.

Second is long plug with non return plunger - sping and flow restrictor (orifice)
They do the same as the first one, but the additionally orifice avoid, that the shock wave, caused by the closing of the nozzle, will be reflected by the non return valve in the delivery valve and runs back to the nozzle and open it again.

Both versions are also used with an additionally build in throttling effect, due to the shape of the non valve plunger, which causes less fuel flow at higher rpm. I know that this is used in some AAZ-pumps for example.

For IDI there are two design i know:

First is short plug with non return plunger -spring and a second small piston.
I do not know what is the theory behind this design, but found it in some injection pumps for Iveco engines. I assume that the design is similiar to the long plug IDI delivery valve and i know that IDI engine will not run properly with these delivery valves.

(you can find pictures of the three delivery valves described above, here:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/VW-TDI-R.pdf

Second is short plug and you can not disassemble it easly

I do not have a picture available, so this is based on memory and Bosch - "Kantengesteuerte Diesel-Verteilereinspritztechnik" - Gelbe Reihe - Ausgabe 2002

This is version which is used in VW TDI pumps, as far as i know and the design is called "equal pressure" delivery valves. The design caused, that the resultant line pressure after the end of the injection period can be set to a choosen setpoint (e.g. 60 bar), by adjusting the preload of an additionally non return valve (against flow direction). An IDI engine will also not run properly with these valves.


Regarding the flow curves for different camplate / plunger combination i adjusted my calculation code (last edited in 2013) to use the camplate stroke vs. degree of rotation measurements, as provided by MK1-83. This causes some deviation to the diagrams from my firts post, especially for the steeper TDI camplates, as the "real" smooth pick-up ramp is more differential to the mean steep ange.

I also used this document (provided by TDI-Meister):
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/VW-TDI-R.pdf
and try to recalculate the stated data for the stock and stage-3 setup of the AFN engine. I have completed the pump, but have to add the nozzle to get a more realistic overall view. In the moment the calculation shows that the theoretical injection duration at rated load / speed is 17,2° (stock) and 20,8° crank rotation, but in the document they speak about 36° crank rotation.

My calculation is actually based on an assumed volumetric efficiency (ve) of 80% (see this as an start value, i do not have any specific information in the moment for guessing the "corrected" value). To bring the injection duration to the stated 36° CA i would need an ve of 33%, which is unrealistic. Second is that i have not included any typ of pre-stroke, which delays the injection start to the more steep shape of the camplate.

My next step is to make a simple approach for the resultant injection pressure and generate a table with flow vs. time for different nozzle sizes and injection pressures. I know this table must be temperature sensitiv but i think it would be better to add this latter with a factor.

@MK1-83
Do you have infos for the prehub of specific high-pressure plunger?

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

P.S.
I will probably post the revised flow diagrams tomorrow, with changed flow unit to mg / stroke (engine), to make it comparable to the ecu values.
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Hi what do you mean pre hub of do you mean the kf and k setting of the pump head ?
The injection degrees I'm think they mean crank degrees not pump because the ratio is 2:1 crank to pump
 

Alleslowbuged

Active member
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Location
NRW Germany
TDI
Golf MK2 TD
Hi,

preload is an option for the plunger design to increase high rpm performance. In this case the plunger has a circular groove in the near of the plunger tip, whichs conects all longitudinal "out slots".

Here is a picture with two plunger, left is 10 mm plunger from BMW E34 525TDS (design approximate 1990 - 1995) and right the equal 10 mm plunger from an BMW E28 524TD (design approximate 1978-1980).



The circular groove allows the fuel to flow back to the low pressure area at the beginning of the working hub, so the high pressure area stays at a constant pressure and the injection period is not started. After the plunger stroke has increased to a certain point (dependent on the position of the channel in the head, the position of the circular groove in the plunger and the k (k1) value), the circular groove is not longer connected to low pressure area and the injection period will start (nozzle will open slightly later). Because the camplate lobe shape is so soft in the start area, this causes a much more rapit pressure increase and therefore shorten the injection duration significant.

As example, according to your camplate diagram, the first 0,3 mm of stroke will need approximate 11,6 ° of crank rotation, but the next 0,3 mm stroke will only need 4,4° of crank rotation. So starting the injection prozess after 0,3 mm of prehub would safe 7,2 ° of crank rotation for the same fuel amount.


The TDS plunger also has additionally longitunal slots, which will help to fill up the high pressure area between the injection sequnences, because at high rpms the high velocity fuel flow will suck fuel out of the high pressure after the dumping bush opens to the low pressure area.

here are detailed pictures of both plungers (old and new)






and just because i like pictures, here a comparision of 524TD / 525TDs and Iveco sixclinder camplates.





Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

P.S.
MK1-83, do you remeber if the plunger in my 12mm plump has this circular groove?
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Hi yes no groove on plunjer, its proven by zolta kiss that it´s not good.

Also look at the different sized spill ports in the plunjer, the 10mm tdi have hole with small box shape part, the cummins 12mm have hole and slot like picture

I prefer kf 8.8/9.0 and k 3.6/3.8 so you have good top end fueling and fairly safe K.
I have made a pump test bench its still in develoments stage but the diesel head gets fairly hot when its on work. so a fuel cooler is really good thing in high rpm 12mm head.

https://goo.gl/photos/SLaDDYsfrgxDXkED6

https://goo.gl/photos/MxjUASgzDb5wDcXy8

mine new project

https://goo.gl/photos/vd6Fu3VUFicK6wtB9

10 mm oem pump head size

https://goo.gl/photos/kkFt7zMDS9PyLZCM9

plunjer size

https://goo.gl/photos/zM6anWX8x5YNW3zZ8

some camplates to test

https://goo.gl/photos/vZuWdERpmEwfFEkD7
 
Last edited:

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqBlqdeP3uE

video of bosch ve pump at 6.00 min you show the 2 types of plunjer
zero pre stroke like tdi ve have little more injection duration
the pre stroke have a grove in top of plunjer and little less injection duration on same camplate
because the filling port only closed when its have a bit lift so you loose bit injection duration time

the zero stroke plunjer like tdi the port closed by rotation
 
Last edited:

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Wouldnt one think the pre stroke is actually benefical as it could start with a smoother pressure rise in which the primary stge of the dual stage DI injector squirts a smaller amount of fuel initially, just like a pilot injection in a CR engine.

Even as this might come over to you as a longer total inj event. I think it will still be beneficial.

Example: in a CR engine run without any pilot injection, the time between start of injection and start of heat release is fairly long, what happens is a lot of fuel is already in the charmber evaporated before the self ignition occurs. this creates a pretty steep rise in pressure, making a louder combustion and more shock load on piston/rod assy. also higher PCP.

A CR with one or 2 pilot events will start earlier with injecting a tiny amount of fuel (1-2 mg), this will start to burn pretty soon creating a higher pressure and temprature in the chamber. by the time the main injection is released this increased temp/pressure will cause the main injection to ignite more quickly, so by the time it ignites, a smaller ratio of the total qty is in the chamber and the peak rate of pressure rise will be lower.

Its clear that in both examples one adjust start of main injection to optimal (alpha 50% burn approx 7 deg AFTDC)

pure BSFC wise single injection is usually better at high loads, but it causes more strain on the engine hardware and makes for a louder combustion.
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
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Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Hi ruben the ports are closed later so build inj pressure late when cam rotates and plunjer lifts
But im found thate with a k 3.4 mm setting the groove sits above filling port

So then it use all camplate lift for fueling and dont loose anything by plunjer rotate to close ports and pressuraised it. Yes im now what you mean to say little pre inj to speed up for main inj
 

Digital Corpus

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
*Bump*
There were two graphs that showed about a dozen cam plate profiles. However, with postimg.org down, they seem to be non-existent now.

Did anyone else here save the images out to their hard drivers? This was in a section of data I lost so it is a no go for me.
 

WarmStart

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Aug 24, 2016
Location
Estonia
TDI
TDI
Hello,
Maybe a little bit out of topic question but I replaced factory plunger with 12mm preload plunger (1.9 tdi, 81 kw, Seat Leon, 2004)
And now I can't get timing right, I advanced pump timing to 14 BTDC and now is cold start (-20C) good. I advanced timing with VCDS as much as possible (under Adaptation, Channel 4) got it 5.5 BTDC. At least now there are some timing advancing by computer when I am driving. But still there are 9 degree difference between pump and computer timing.
Look like needle lift sensor measures needle lift from zero. So it shows pre stroke not main injection.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Strange. Tbh I would set timing by looking in normal meas block in channel 4 (not basic setting) and then with warm engine the req timing will be close to 0, then advance pump till you have 2-3* btd with duty cycle close to 0, this means that the timing at idle will be mechanically 2-3 deg without intervention from the n108. This way if case pressure is decent you will easily get 20* of dynamic timing with stock timing piston/cover.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Look like needle lift sensor measures needle lift from zero. So it shows pre stroke not main injection.
I don't think it measures from needle lift, but when the needle strikes the travel stop, fully open.

On mine at warm idle the 'timing (actual)' goes blank and n108 duty cycle defaults to a fixed 44%
if it were measuring the needle's initial opening it wouldn't do that, but if it is measuring the needle's end of travel fully open it would make sense, at hot idle there just isn't enough fuel going in to fully open the injector.
 

WarmStart

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Joined
Aug 24, 2016
Location
Estonia
TDI
TDI
I don't think it measures from needle lift, but when the needle strikes the travel stop, fully open.

On mine at warm idle the 'timing (actual)' goes blank and n108 duty cycle defaults to a fixed 44%
But it have to measure from zero or pre stroke (on my car) because it is only explanation why pump mechanical timing and computer asked timing is so much off. There are -20 C. cold outside and engine with 14 degrees advanced timing start like normal engine. When it was advanged 8 degrees it was much harder start.
Maybe there are G80 different sensors, some are more active then others or ECUs are reading them differently.
 

Yucca

Veteran Member
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Apr 13, 2007
Location
Finland
TDI
ALH 388bhp, Polo 6R 2.0TDI CR GTC1752VZ
Has anyone tried DE177 camplate?
Lift is 3.5mm.

This is b.s.

I have DE177 and stock 10mm pump camplate DE110 in my hands. Both have same lift, like 3.1mm or so. Profile is little different.
 
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