Calling Malone Tune CR with emission deletes.

MÄDDNESSS

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Location
GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
Long story short, I'm trying to find a problem. Tuner thinks its my car, I think its the tune. I dont have any tuned CR around me to compare my car against. So I'm reaching out to the community for support.
If you have, or have access to, VCDS, or other like tool, could you check out what your MAF reading is at while idling? Engine- Messuring Blocks- Group 010, and could you post that value here please?
That all I ask. Thanks.
 

Keir@malonetuning.com

Vendor , w/Business number
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May 11, 2016
Location
Canada
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none
Mind telling me via PM what your issue is so I can help?

I've got a CR sitting right here, however without knowning what the issue is, it makes helping quite difficult.
 

MÄDDNESSS

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Location
GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
Awesome, somebody from Malone Tuning. Thats not sarcasm. I really am happy you offered to help because this is getting really frustrating. I dont want to PM because it would be very long. I have a thread thats going on 4 or 5 pages with no resolution.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=464707

Any and all help is appreciated.
 

Golf tdi

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NY
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Golf
My 3.5 tune is amazing loving it everytime I drive it zero problems,yes it's fast.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
For the record, measured value block 10 is NOT ideal for MAF readings, since you're only going to get just the sensor reading, not the ECU specified MAF reading. It is primarily the ECU comparing plausbility of the MAP sensor to the barometric pressure sensor that's inside the ECU. And it's only a check that's done key on, engine off.

MAF is normally viewed in measured value 3 so you can see what the computer specifies vs. what the sensor is actually reading, although there are a few other blocks in VCDS that also contain MAF data... 3 is the obvious one that again shows specified MAF vs. actual reading.

Of course with an emissions delete, that's a whole different story...

But still, for MAF data I would primarily want to see MVB 3 to see ECM expectations vs. what the sensor is reporting (broken record here to drive the point home).
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
After reading the other thread, I'll add this:

Your friend who you swapped MAFs with still has all his emissions equipment, right?? Because at idle, a stock commonrail will have its EGRs activated, since those are introducing air into the engine after the MAF sensor, the MAF reading drops. It's quite normal to see an EGR-less TDI at 450 mg/st or more at idle when the EGRs are off/disabled.

But the reading at idle isn't going to tell you the whole story. Log measured value 3 with both MAFs, wide open throttle in 3rd gear just like you do for the measured value block 11 boost log. Note any difference.

VW also has a TSB out there now about another trick for setting the actuator. I don't have it handy, unfortunately, but they do have a specification for what the position sensor should report min vs. max voltage when performing basic setting 11.

Of course that's for replacing the actuator. A whole new turbo should have had the actuator already correctly set from the factory.

It's entirely possible you have a fueling issue. You had the head removed, right? How did you store your injectors while the work was being done? I have witnessed several cars that underperformed after cylinder head work because the injectors were not stored in fuel or other oil-based solution to prevent contamination and drying out. The injectors don't flow very well at all. Injectors that don't flow the amount of fuel they're supposed to can absolutely make for a sluggish turbo response. A MAF that underreports the air flow has a similar effect. Is there any difference in boost response and drivability when you drive with the MAF unplugged?

Also, did you make sure the injectors went back in the same cylinder they came out of? If you did not, you need to re-enter the correction values that's printed on top of each injector into the engine computer's corresponding adaptation values so the computer is correctly compensating for each injector's unique characteristics.
 

MÄDDNESSS

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Location
GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
For the record, measured value block 10 is NOT ideal for MAF readings, since you're only going to get just the sensor reading, not the ECU specified MAF reading. It is primarily the ECU comparing plausbility of the MAP sensor to the barometric pressure sensor that's inside the ECU. And it's only a check that's done key on, engine off.
MAF is normally viewed in measured value 3 so you can see what the computer specifies vs. what the sensor is actually reading, although there are a few other blocks in VCDS that also contain MAF data... 3 is the obvious one that again shows specified MAF vs. actual reading.
Of course with an emissions delete, that's a whole different story...
But still, for MAF data I would primarily want to see MVB 3 to see ECM expectations vs. what the sensor is reporting (broken record here to drive the point home).
Meassuring block 10 is the only MAF value one can look at on the CR. It is done with the engine on but only at idle. If you hover the clicker over the value, a little window pops up telling you soecs at idle.

Measure block 3 does is not specified MAF vs actual MAF. I dont remember what it is off the top of my head but after talking with ROSSTECH support, we came to the consensus that CR ECUs not have such a block.


After reading the other thread, I'll add this:
Your friend who you swapped MAFs with still has all his emissions equipment, right?? Because at idle, a stock commonrail will have its EGRs activated, since those are introducing air into the engine after the MAF sensor, the MAF reading drops. It's quite normal to see an EGR-less TDI at 450 mg/st or more at idle when the EGRs are off/disabled.
But the reading at idle isn't going to tell you the whole story. Log measured value 3 with both MAFs, wide open throttle in 3rd gear just like you do for the measured value block 11 boost log. Note any difference.
VW also has a TSB out there now about another trick for setting the actuator. I don't have it handy, unfortunately, but they do have a specification for what the position sensor should report min vs. max voltage when performing basic setting 11.
Of course that's for replacing the actuator. A whole new turbo should have had the actuator already correctly set from the factory.
It's entirely possible you have a fueling issue. You had the head removed, right? How did you store your injectors while the work was being done? I have witnessed several cars that underperformed after cylinder head work because the injectors were not stored in fuel or other oil-based solution to prevent contamination and drying out. The injectors don't flow very well at all. Injectors that don't flow the amount of fuel they're supposed to can absolutely make for a sluggish turbo response. A MAF that underreports the air flow has a similar effect. Is there any difference in boost response and drivability when you drive with the MAF unplugged?
Also, did you make sure the injectors went back in the same cylinder they came out of? If you did not, you need to re-enter the correction values that's printed on top of each injector into the engine computer's corresponding adaptation values so the computer is correctly compensating for each injector's unique characteristics.
Yes, they do have all of their emissions equipment. I tried it on 2 JSWs. One was a mk5, the other a mk6.

I figured there would being a difference because of the EGR, being a secondary source of intake, I guessed that towards the end of my other thread.

Yes, I replaced the head. I kept them in individual ziplock brand, 1 gallon, freezer bags. I also labeled which injectors came from which cylinder and put them back to their respective cylinder.

The other basic setting I velieve you are reffering to is "Charge Pressure Control" it give N75 duty cycle and I believe the voltage specs. They were within spec on all accounts.

I did unplug it and the reading dropped by about 40mg/st. I didn't get a CEL or DTC, which I found odd, but I only tested it unplugged at idle. I did not drive it or take logs
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Meassuring block 10 is the only MAF value one can look at on the CR. It is done with the engine on but only at idle. If you hover the clicker over the value, a little window pops up telling you soecs at idle.
Measure block 3 does is not specified MAF vs actual MAF. I dont remember what it is off the top of my head but after talking with ROSSTECH support, we came to the consensus that CR ECUs not have such a block.
Yes, they do have all of their emissions equipment. I tried it on 2 JSWs. One was a mk5, the other a mk6.
Wonder if your label files are wrong, because measured value 3 absolutely shows MAF actual vs. requested in fields 2 and 3.

If you want a slightly more complete list of labels for CBEA and CJAA measured value blocks than what Ross-Tech has, here's a file straight from VW:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/D3E802F8708-2_0L_TDI_Common_Rail_CBEA-CJAA.pdf
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
And freezer bags aren't necessarily going to prevent the injectors from drying out/gumming up. You could always try running a couple cans of diesel purge through it and see if it helps. A little tricky to do on a car with a lift pump, though...
 

MÄDDNESSS

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Location
GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
Wonder if your label files are wrong, because measured value 3 absolutely shows MAF actual vs. requested in fields 2 and 3.
If you want a slightly more complete list of labels for CBEA and CJAA measured value blocks than what Ross-Tech has, here's a file straight from VW:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/D3E802F8708-2_0L_TDI_Common_Rail_CBEA-CJAA.pdf
Its under engine and measuring blocks, right?
I'll have to check that PDF on my laptop, it isnt pulling up on my phone.

And freezer bags aren't necessarily going to prevent the injectors from drying out/gumming up. You could always try running a couple cans of diesel purge through it and see if it helps. A little tricky to do on a car with a lift pump, though...
How can it be tricky?
Where does the term "lift pump" come from. I've mainly only heard it on refference to older VW diesels.
 

MÄDDNESSS

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Joined
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Location
GA
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2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
Keir, did you have a look at the MAF actual in block 10 on the car you have there?
 

Keir@malonetuning.com

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Joined
May 11, 2016
Location
Canada
TDI
none
Block 3 it supposed to be your EGR label,FYI, you are both right here, its labeled as EGR but it is your MAF reading in there.

I thought our shop car was at the same state as yours but it isn't anymore so its not likely to provide you with much comparison info.
 
Last edited:

Keir@malonetuning.com

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Joined
May 11, 2016
Location
Canada
TDI
none
It was hovering around 500 but I can't take it out and get it warmed up, I'm unsure if that would make a world of difference as I haven't studied that particular value hot or cold.
 

MÄDDNESSS

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Location
GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
That,.. just, what?
That makes no sense to me.

If I dont have an EGR system, how is it going to give me an accurate reading? Of my MAF nonetheless.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
The only way the computer can calculate EGR flow rates is by comparing MAF values with its internal calculations/mapping.

Measures value block 3 field 2 has always been MAF specified, block 3 field 3 is MAF actual reading. Variances in specified vs actual is how the computer knows how well the EGRs are performing.
 

Vince Waldon

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Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
...and post #27 is saying: although those readings are labeled "EGR" on your screen they are actually MAF readings.
 
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