Buying myself a present (AMC head), but what brand for HG and bolts?

[03TDICommuter]

Tired of having to drive this NB like a baby so I'm going to buy myself a present and get a new AMC head. When I did the HG about 3 years ago, I bought a Victor Reinz HG that didn't fit (only had clearance for 1 dowel, not both) and ended up buying a HG at the dealer. Head bolts were Mahle.

Shopping around this time - any reason I shouldn't get an Elring HG and Mahle head bolts? Will pick up a set of intake, exhaust, egr gaskets, water outlet o-ring. I threw a new belt on when I did the HG 3 years ago so not going to put a timing belt kit in it this time around.

Anything else I'm missing?

 

[csstevej]

I started using Apr head bolts , there reusable and are supposed to have a better clamping force.

 

[burpod]

there are early and late styles of ALH head gaskets - so you want to make sure to get the correct one, at least if you're using regular head bolts.

FWIW, if you use studs, you can use either head gasket tho and just use one center dowel (iirc). with the studs + the one dowel, it will be perfectly centered

imo, stock head bolts, torqued correctly, should be totally fine for "30-32psi" on good tuning, which would include of course not trying to do 32psi @ 2000rpm etc i beat the hell out of my mk1 for a good amount of time at 30+ psi levels stock head bolts, stock bottom end and zero signs of any hg leakage ... or maybe just got lucky

i like the thicker fiber-type exhaust manifold gaskets

 

[03TDICommuter]

Any head gaskets to avoid?

 

[Sting]

Pardon my ignorance, what is an AMC head?

 

[Johhny04]

AMC is the brand.

 

[Sting]

Cheers, thank you.

 

[Nuje]

Pardon my ignorance, what is an AMC head?

AMC is the brand.

Case in point:

Loaded Cylinder Head, ALH AMC – Cascade German Parts

www.cascadegerman.com

 

[03TDICommuter]

I read the AMC heads have lousy valve stem seals. Anyone replace theirs up front or just wait until they go bad and replace in-place?

 

[03TDICommuter]

Head ordered. I can worry about the other stuff later - like why does Elring have 2 completely different sets of headgaskets for the ALH ? (and I don't mean number of holes).

 

[burpod]

Head ordered. I can worry about the other stuff later - like why does Elring have 2 completely different sets of headgaskets for the ALH ? (and I don't mean number of holes).

there's early and late style - one with 2 dowel pins, one with 1 down pin, i forget which is which

 

[03TDICommuter]

there's early and late style - one with 2 dowel pins, one with 1 down pin, i forget which is which

When I did the head gasket 3 years ago, the Victor Reinz I bought was for the 1 dowel. Wouldn't fit. Ended up buying a HG from the dealer.
I don't want to make that mistake again, nor do I want to pay dealer prices for another HG.

BTW, did you know the dealer still sells refurbished and new ALH heads? I was surprised to see it listed.
Refurb - $1398 https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen_2...ngine-Cylinder-Head/47990546/038103265AX.html

New $1440 https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen_2...Engine-Cylinder-Head/48000928/038103351B.html

 

[STDOUBT]

I hope you paid a lot less than that for the AMC!

 

[03TDICommuter]

I hope you paid a lot less than that for the AMC!

I ordered through Cascade German with their 5% off BF deal, so around $860

Still, $1400 for a new head through the dealer is a pretty good deal when most other places are charging over $1000 for an AMC head.

 

[turbocharged798]

I have heard mixed opinions on AMC heads. Quality isn't great.

 

[03TDICommuter]

I have heard mixed opinions on AMC heads. Quality isn't great.

Same but both sellers claim they are reliable. IBW has one on his son’s car.

 

[Nuje]

@Franko6 is the one person I've seen here who has spoken out against AMC heads as being sub-par; I don't recall seeing anyone on here who has had an issue with the head after they installed it (not saying it hasn't happened; I just don't recall seeing it).

Conversely, both @BleachedBora and @IndigoBlueWagon sell these by the (maybe-not-but-you-get-the-idea) container-load, and I gotta think that if they had persistent issues, they would have dropped them by now.

 

[Franko6]

I am proud of my reputation and quite honestly, my feelings about AMC are not come by without my usual detailed analysis. I will agree, not every AMC cylinder head is bad, but what I have seen is a littany of poor manufacturing, with not only the cylinder head itself, but the parts they buy to install in the head. Honestly, I think I may have been passed when bringing judgement by my blunt statements for quality, when each time, I back up what I say with the obvious proofs.

Let's start with the seats. VW uses a powder metal seat that only can be made by high heat with compression that forms two metals that do not want to combine, into a ruggedly hard and better yet, a material that has a coefficient of expansion very close to the aluminum. That means the seats don't fail by falling out. AMC uses as best I can tell a very soft and grainy ductile iron seat, that although it works well in a Yanmar garden tractor going 1500 rpm, it hammers out in a VW head.

Then there are the guides. Not sure who makes them, but I could guess. I don't even use the VW version of guides, but upgrade from them to manganese bronze.

Next, I will group: Valves, Springs, Keepers. I've seen each of these items break in two for no better reason than there was very poor quality control in their manufacture and I know, not made by AMC any more than the valves used by VW. The most stunning were two valves I finally identified with a marking: N184 that in two separate cylinder heads, the valve managed to make 1 week before each broke the valve's head off. You could make an excuse the mechanic screwed up the timing belt job, but the same good mechanic doing it back-to-back? That challenges the idea I would blame him. The same valve was later found to be sold separately and it faired as well in a job where it was not installed in an AMC head.

Glow plug holes bored off-center, poorly made cam cap studs... And I do know the metallurgy of the VW castings are not repeated by anyone else. High silicon to the point of free-floating, and all of the nickel, copper and molybdemum that can be alloyed into the aluminum is with great purpose. A durable head..

Can you make it a couple of years with an AMC? Yeah, I think so. Can it make 500,000? I would not bet my money on that. I do build with the intent of 250,000 miles and have very often beat that. With proper care, I think it's possible to have a 1,000,000 mile engine. I hope to see it. It may have happened and I don't know about it; closest I know of is 3/4 million.

Will an AMC do that? I think not.

You don't have to go with what I say. Do what you want. I will continue with my same thoughts and with some of those heads, it's stunning how poorly they were made and left their owners stranded.

 

[STDOUBT]

I think it's possible to have a 1,000,000 mile engine. I hope to see it.

It's been seen! Not sure what if anything @TornadoRed may have replaced engine-wise during those miles.

One Million Mile Mark !!!

When I first bought my 4-dr, I was driving at a rate that would have put me over a million miles in less than 40 years. These days, it would take me more than 200. It is safe to say I won't make it. So why did you dredge up this ancient thread, anyway???

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[Franko6]

Tornado Red and I do have a history. I'd have to look and see what all we did together.

Also, Nuje, I can add another name of someone who does not care for the AMC heads. That is Oilhammer, Brian Johnson, who I find to be one of the high status members on the Club. We both have drawn similar opinions. We also don't always agree, but it's never hostile. I respect Brian.

 

[oilhammer]

An AMC head with 50k miles on it will have the wear of an OEM head with 300k miles on it. The valves are poor, the seats are poor, the guides are poor, the stem seals are poor. This is nothing new, AMC has been making 'meh' heads for Volkswagens since way back when the engines were in the back where they belong.

There are no new or reman ALH heads available from Volkswagen anymore (despite what some websites might say, they'll be backordered forever, no more left, NLA obsoleted).

I think they can be a cheap way out for someone that has an entirely tooefed unusable unfixable OEM head, but I'd still rather source one of those instead.

Now the castings might be OK, I'm not sure. I know the AMC waterboxer heads were bad about the aluminum galling up when the guides were pushed out, simply because the material just wasn't as good. Be nice if AMC just sold a bare head instead.

 

[454k30]

Ideally, if you need to keep your car operational in the interim, you would get ahold of a good OEM core, have Frank06 rebuild and re-cam it, and then do the swap over in a weekend.

I have an AMC head. I installed that as the original head was damaged when a lifter collapsed during a cross country drive. If I had the time, I would've sent the original head to Frank to see what he could do with it. However, pressed for time, the AMC went in. The valve seals on mine were bad out of the box. Finally, when oil consumption went up and smoke became more than could be tolerated, I changed out those seals.

As to the OP question about studs or bolts, bolts are just fine unless you are making significant changes to the cylinder pressures.

 

[Franko6]

How are you doing, Brian? You and I have similar experiences with the AMC. In my opinion, it starts with the alloy and goes downhill from there.

To put some perspective on this ‘AMC opinion poll’, it’s not a matter of who sells them, or how many they sell. It is the question of how many of those AMC heads put the car into the junkyard? When crap valves break off or springs collapse and trash up the head and the block, and you have to understand the motivation of the Purchaser, the quick, easy and sloppy purchase is often the end of the vehicle. Who is going to brag OR complain about the cylinder head that put their car in the graveyard?

Neither Brian or I are going to pick out a part and give our take on its quality without many examples, much study, and a history of getting it right.

Nuje, I can find many more examples, but I think this should be enough.

 

[Nuje]

I don't know what I did for this to become a personal vendetta - I wasn't advocating one way or the other on AMC heads, but whatever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Back to the topic at hand: head bolts - with a well-tuned (see: @burpod) engine, you shouldn't need the extra hold-down strength of ARP head studs, but they do have the upside of being reusable (at a significant price premium, mind you).
If you're planning to be one-and-done on the head install, no reason you can't just go with the OE-quality bolts like what idparts or cascadegerman sells.
I quite like the Elring head gaskets (and intake / exhaust as well).

 

[03TDICommuter]

Thanks everyone, I've read up on the AMC heads long before I decided to buy one. I had also heard Franko6 had a long backlog, and after calling him a few weeks ago, learned he is currently not providing head rebuilding service and with no known date to resume. IBW success, Black Friday sale, and my impatience made me decide to get one now.

Oilhammer - interesting that VW's listing is vaporware.

 

[Franko6]

Nuje, you specifically point me out as a single person against a particular product and I am not supposed to notice? Well, I do.

 

[03TDICommuter]

However, pressed for time, the AMC went in. The valve seals on mine were bad out of the box. Finally, when oil consumption went up and smoke became more than could be tolerated, I changed out those seals.

Based on your input, I’m going to preemptively replace the valve stem seals on the AMC head before installation. That failure I’ve read about fairly often, and I have a set I bought 3 years ago that I didn’t use on my original head.

After the swap, I’ll have a good core to keep on hand for down the road or my next TDI. Hoping for a Golf or better yet a wagon in my future.

 

[454k30]

Based on your input, I’m going to preemptively replace the valve stem seals on the AMC head before installation.

That failure is not unique to AMC heads. The gasser VW engines from that era are notorious for having bad valve seals. If you go on youtube and search for VW valve seal replacement, you'll see a dozen videos of 1.8T and 2.0 owners having the same issue on completely stock engines. Our TDI don't produce much vacuum (but it's not zero) so I believe that this either disguises this issue in TDI or accentuates it in the gas engines.

Anyway... Since you have the cam out, I would suggest putting in new lifters as well. What took out my oem head was not a failed cam, it was a failed lifter that then ate up the cam lobe. These are another item that was used on a bunch of different VW engines, and if you look across the enterprise you'll see many engines having issues with shattered/collapsed lifters. Since the AMC lifters are of unknown origin, it might be worth the $70 to get some known ones. I thought at one point there was a new design for them as well, but I can't find anything online except for OEM replacements.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[03TDICommuter]

That failure is not unique to AMC heads. The gasser VW engines from that era are notorious for having bad valve seals. If you go on youtube and search for VW valve seal replacement, you'll see a dozen videos of 1.8T and 2.0 owners having the same issue on completely stock engines. Our TDI don't produce much vacuum (but it's not zero) so I believe that this either disguises this issue in TDI or accentuates it in the gas engines.

Anyway... Since you have the cam out, I would suggest putting in new lifters as well. What took out my oem head was not a failed cam, it was a failed lifter that then ate up the cam lobe. These are another item that was used on a bunch of different VW engines, and if you look across the enterprise you'll see many engines having issues with shattered/collapsed lifters. Since the AMC lifters are of unknown origin, it might be worth the $70 to get some known ones. I thought at one point there was a new design for them as well, but I can't find anything online except for OEM replacements.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks for the input. I remember recommendations for running a cam break in lube on other flat tappet cams. I think I’ll do that too when reassembling the head.

 

[454k30]

Thanks for the input. I remember recommendations for running a cam break in lube on other flat tappet cams. I think I’ll do that too when reassembling the head.

It's never a bad idea to use an assembly lube on new components. Be aware that most of those "break-in" or assembly lubes recommend an oil change within a few hundred miles of first start - So have an extra filter and oil on hand for that need.