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BRM w/PD 140 Turbo and 150 Injectors

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
I finally got around to running a dyno on my '06 BRM with an upgraded PD 140 turbo and PD 150 injectors and of course a tune from Jeff at RocketChip. Lots of people helped pull this together, my thanks to them all.
Rollin' the Coal:
http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_i...4_3428501544318_3428472263586_61728_720_b.jpg
The dyno plot:

The car is wonderful to drive, a great mix of power and torque. They should have come this way.
 

Hurst89

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2005.5 Pkg 0 5spd TDI
Did you use the standard gt1646 or the upgraded gt1749vc from Scroll products for the PD140? Looks like really good performance for something that could cost less than 3,000 in parts/tune when all said and done.

Hurst
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Did you use the standard gt1646 or the upgraded gt1749vc from Scroll products for the PD140? Looks like really good performance for something that could cost less than 3,000 in parts/tune when all said and done.

Hurst
Just the stock PD 140 turbo from ID Parts. I was not aware of any other PD 140 turbo being available. You're a bit low on your parts estimate; however I was looking for a combination of power and longevity. I hope to get 300,000-400,000 miles from this car.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
Man, that's a REALLY nice curve! I'm really excited to get everything buttoned up on my BEW and get it on a dyno (1756, PD150 injectors, etc etc)
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Man, that's a REALLY nice curve! I'm really excited to get everything buttoned up on my BEW and get it on a dyno (1756, PD150 injectors, etc etc)
The 1756 is a generation or two newer and I thought about going that route but having to fab an intake was too much for me. The bolt-on option was the way I wanted to go. Your car should be great when finished. Hope to see some number when its done.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
Yeah, I lucked out with the BEW for sure (as far as not requiring anything special to bolt all my old ALH stuff up to it)
 

Hurst89

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2005.5 Pkg 0 5spd TDI
Just curious because I have been giving a similar upgrade some thought, where am I going wrong in my cost estimations?

GT1749vc PD140 upgraded turbo: $1400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item5890909afd&vxp=mtr
PD150 injectors used: $700 (if you're patient, can find a set for less usually)
Tune: $6-700
Oil Feed Line for turbo: $70
Manifold Gasket: $20

I'd install it all myself, so not including labor in my estimate. Please let me know what you found when doing the upgrade as far as the parts needed and if I'm leaving something out of my list.

Hurst
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Just curious because I have been giving a similar upgrade some thought, where am I going wrong in my cost estimations?

GT1749vc PD140 upgraded turbo: $1400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item5890909afd&vxp=mtr
PD150 injectors used: $700 (if you're patient, can find a set for less usually)
Tune: $6-700
Oil Feed Line for turbo: $70
Manifold Gasket: $20

I'd install it all myself, so not including labor in my estimate. Please let me know what you found when doing the upgrade as far as the parts needed and if I'm leaving something out of my list.

Hurst
The turbo you've found has been remanufactured by an "expert" according to the ad. I'm more conservative and wanted to buy from a known vendor. Because the actuator works in reverse on the BRM as opposed to the other motors listed the one you've found will require a new actuator and or someone with enough technical savvy to rewire this one. I only know of one person who's done this. So the bottom line is that I paid more for my turbo as a new OEM product and had the additional cost to find an actuator that would work. You may not have an issues with this yourself. My turbo came with the proper 140 oil feed line but it wasn't a joy to install. You may want to do something with your CAT or an upgraded down pipe if you go with the turbo you've found.

I searched for a long time to find PD 150 injectors. Kerma sells them new for $795 each. I bought used ones at first but they did not work as I'd hoped so I had to replace them with new; although I did use another vendor.

I did replace the clutch with a South Bend Stage III (currently called a Stage II Endurance) and had my dual mass flywheel machined by South Bend. I can't even remember what all that cost.

The cost of a tune will vary by vendor but I suspect you're in the ballpark there. So overall I spent well over 4K in total not counting having to replace the cam in the middle of this. Some will say I was nuts to spend that kind on $$$ for an upgrade like this, maybe so, but it seems to bring a smile to the face of everyone who's driven it including me.
 
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bquick

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Location
Napa, CA
TDI
2006 Jetta MT
Sootman,

What exactly did you have to do for an actuator on your turbo setup?

Thanks,

Bryan
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Sootman,

What exactly did you have to do for an actuator on your turbo setup?

Thanks,

Bryan
Peter and Corey at ID Parts came up with an actuator that works. However it needed to be modified as the length of the thread rod wasn't long enough. They did figure a way of doing it. Recently Corey found that the actuator from the common rail has the needed length and has the electronic loop connector that's needed. You may want to contact them and see what the options are available as Peter recently told me that he had just gotten in some new turbos.
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Sootman,
What exactly did you have to do for an actuator on your turbo setup?
Thanks,
Bryan
Peter and Corey at ID Parts came up with an actuator that works. However it needed to be modified as the length of the threaded rod wasn't long enough. They did figure a way of making it work. Recently Corey found that the actuator from the common rail has the needed length and has the electronic loop connector that's needed too. You may want to contact them and see what the options are available as Peter recently told me that he had just gotten in some new turbos.
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
The turbo I linked in my earlier post is believed to use the PD170 actuator (that's the 16v engine with the 1749vc) according to this post:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=344379

Says it is plug and play with the BRM's computer, but is located slightly differently than the original turbo.

Hurst
Interesting reading and lots left to conjecture. I really like to see some solid numbers from a non-Mustang dyno.

I hope double rl will post a dyno soon.
 

TDI817

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Location
Comox BC
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI & 2001 Jetta TDI
Very nice build. This is something I have been looking at doing for over a year now. Those are very nice numbers on the dyno. I just have a few question. Do you have an upgraded down pipe and exhaust? How come you had to replace your cam? and how come you had to upgrade your injectors? I've been told that the stock injectors are good up to 170hp?

My plans are to go with the PD140 turbo, Malone stage 4 tune (with dynamic egr control & dynamic idle control) With an exhaust similar to the one linked below. And a Sach VR6 clutch kit. My aim would be 160hp and 270pounds of torque.

http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_15_70_184&products_id=1382
 

Louczar

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2012
Location
New Braunfels, TX
TDI
2012 Jetta
Great write up / questions and answers. I have desire to "upgrade" my TDI when the warranty is up. Thank you for the cost coverage.

I do have a question about your power increase. do you have traction control still enabled. I feel / see it kick in with my 12 tdi and I wish there was a switch to turn it off. It's very annoying
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Just wondering why nobody does nozzles instead of replacing the entire injector? For what you pay for used PD150 injectors, you can have new nozzles, set up and everything.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I'll let Sootman reply to most of these questions but will add a couple of comments. It's true that stock injectors are good for up to 170 WHP, but probably on a dynojet, which typically provides more optimistic numbers. I would guess this car would get close to 200 HP on a dynojet. If your goal is 160 I think you'll get there with stock injectors.

That tectonics pipe looks nice, but the important part of the exhaust upgrade is the downpipe, as the flex and cat are pretty restrictive.

And my understanding is that PD150 injectors run at significantly higher pressures than PD100s do, and the nozzles are actually smaller on the PD150s. So a nozzle swap wouldn't get the same results.
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Very nice build. This is something I have been looking at doing for over a year now. Those are very nice numbers on the dyno. I just have a few question. Do you have an upgraded down pipe and exhaust? How come you had to replace your cam? and how come you had to upgrade your injectors? I've been told that the stock injectors are good up to 170hp?
My plans are to go with the PD140 turbo, Malone stage 4 tune (with dynamic egr control & dynamic idle control) With an exhaust similar to the one linked below. And a Sach VR6 clutch kit. My aim would be 160hp and 270pounds of torque.
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_15_70_184&products_id=1382
Just spotted your post. I have a stock DP however the cat has been emptied. I do plan to buy the ID Parts one in the fairly near future as I'm recovering financially from my recent purchases:eek:. The DP that ID Parts is selling has very smooth transitions (i.e. curves). Frankly the Techtronics exhaust you link to is only 1/4" larger in diameter than the stock exhaust pipe. I'd suggest focusing on the down pipe first.
Nearly everyone with an '05-'06 seems to run into cam problems sooner or later. When installing the injectors it became very obvious that I had several cracked lifters and the cam itself was showing wear. I just bit the bullet before I lost the engine to some small piece of the cam coming loose.
My understanding is that the PD 100 injectors require a higher pressure to operate and may as a result contribute to cam problems like I and other have experienced. I believe the PD 150 injectors run at a lower pressure and have bigger nozzles or at least that how I understand it. It would have been much cheaper to have had new nozzles installed on my old injectors as opposed to buying 4-new PD 150 injectors. I still have my old ones so I guess I could go that route. I have no idea what the stock injectors are good for and I really don't want to swap out my stock one with new nozzles from the PD 150's.
Louczar...I do have the stock traction control it seems to work fine. I can however light up the tires in 1st, 2nd and 3rd even with a heavy set of 17" Audi wheels:D
 
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turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
I'll let Sootman reply to most of these questions but will add a couple of comments. It's true that stock injectors are good for up to 170 WHP, but probably on a dynojet, which typically provides more optimistic numbers. I would guess this car would get close to 200 HP on a dynojet. If your goal is 160 I think you'll get there with stock injectors.

That tectonics pipe looks nice, but the important part of the exhaust upgrade is the downpipe, as the flex and cat are pretty restrictive.

And my understanding is that PD150 injectors run at significantly higher pressures than PD100s do, and the nozzles are actually smaller on the PD150s. So a nozzle swap wouldn't get the same results.
I was told that BEW and ARL(PD150) injector bodies were identical and the only difference was the nozzle size. BRM injectors use a smaller piston or something.....

Again, that's just what I was told. No idea if its true or not.
 

JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
I have also been told that ARL and BEW bodies have slight differences.

BRM are definitely different.
 

blue176

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Albany NY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
So as far as a tune for the brm.....the next step is a turbo right? from what ive read it at least seems like it.

ive been also looking at this turbo because its one of the only bolt on options.
 

Farfromovin

Torque Addict
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
03 Golf 2dr- PD150 6m
Beautiful curve, keep it stock, keep it simple. Notice I didn't say keep it cheap lol. Great results!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

munisign

Active member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Location
Naples, Fl.
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG
Thanks Blue for all your input and help. Your cohort Cory hooked me up with the Pd 140 turbo, oil line, smart actuator,TB kit, and the 2.5 downpipe. He also referred me to Jason up in Madison to do the install work. I'm going to have him put in a new cam also (84,000 mi.), just because I love the car and I don't want to have to worry about a soft cam or lifters again if possible, for a long long time. When I saw Sootman's dyno chart I knew I had to try this on my BRM DSG model. I'm not going to the PD 150 injectors (I have a RC 2 tune with stock injectors) until I can get ahold of Jeff for a retune. Im having the install work done on 6/11. I'll try and get it dynoed in the above state the middle of this month, before I install the PD 150 injectors and have Jeff retune it, and post the results asap. Thanks Sootman for your help too. I think the quicker spool-up of this turbo verses the scroll hybrid (PD 170 compressor side) will work better with the DSG trans. Sometimes Less is more. Sootman, Your Dyno chart was a thing of Beauty-broad strong torque! I think my only problem will be keeping the DSG together!

Best Of health To You All,
munisign
 

TDikook

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 15, 2003
Location
New Orleans, La
TDI
'06 Golf Anthracite Blue
as for PD150 injectors. they do WONDERS for the BEW. when I installed mine, I had RC2+. and without a retune, it ran GREAT! it was a little smokey on hard runs, but something about the 150s just made it better.
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
as for PD150 injectors. they do WONDERS for the BEW. when I installed mine, I had RC2+. and without a retune, it ran GREAT! it was a little smokey on hard runs, but something about the 150s just made it better.
Mine too is a little smokey on hard runs but the power is so nice it's worth it. Still I'm going to see if Jeff can back off on the fueling at WOT a bit. In the meantime it sure is fun.
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Thanks Blue for all your input and help. Your cohort Cory hooked me up with the Pd 140 turbo, oil line, smart actuator,TB kit, and the 2.5 downpipe. He also referred me to Jason up in Madison to do the install work. I'm going to have him put in a new cam also (84,000 mi.), just because I love the car and I don't want to have to worry about a soft cam or lifters again if possible, for a long long time. When I saw Sootman's dyno chart I knew I had to try this on my BRM DSG model. I'm not going to the PD 150 injectors (I have a RC 2 tune with stock injectors) until I can get ahold of Jeff for a retune. Im having the install work done on 6/11. I'll try and get it dynoed in the above state the middle of this month, before I install the PD 150 injectors and have Jeff retune it, and post the results asap. Thanks Sootman for your help too. I think the quicker spool-up of this turbo verses the scroll hybrid (PD 170 compressor side) will work better with the DSG trans. Sometimes Less is more. Sootman, Your Dyno chart was a thing of Beauty-broad strong torque! I think my only problem will be keeping the DSG together!
Best Of health To You All,
munisign
Jeff will know how to set it up to keep your DSG together, that's what his own car has (well, one of his cars:D). It would be great if you could dyno the car with the PD 140 turbo and stock injectors before you go with the PD 150 injectors, if for nothing else to give us a baseline. Have fun!
 

pghvdubguy95

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2005
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
TDI
15 Passat se 6m,
I'd love to see a dyno of a setup with this turbo and stock injectors.

Coming soon!!!! Peter, I dropped my car off today the get my PD140 installed!!! After Jeff tunes it, I'll get another Dyno.

Here are a few video's of my dyno this morning. All stock except Rocketchip Stage 1+ and g60/vr6 Clutch with lightened flywheel.

http://www.youtube.com/user/krado94?feature=mhee

Best run today was 131.64 hp and 261.74 torque.
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
If anyone wants to try out an upgrade to this i have 2 'sizes' bigger, 210hp or 240 capable!! bolt on too!!
 
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