BRM Intake Manifold Clogged with Gunk

bherman13

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Before you come in here to say "BRM engines NEVER get clogged with gunk", stop. I've read all the other threads that a search could find and they were filled with "because of ULSD, gunk doesn't exist" or things like that.

That's why I'm here.... because I haven't found the solution to my problem.

Please don't tell me that it never happens because it obviously happens. Maybe they're not supposed to clog up like it seems mk4's were designed to do, but mine is gunky. I'd like to ask for some help to diagnose what's causing it.

Proof:


This is my 2006 BRM 5spd. I work on it all myself and took this photo myself on my cell phone. It's never used off-road fuel and for as long as I've owned it, it's only been on B5-B20 ULSD since that's what's available where I live. I also make sure to choose a good quality fuel station, even if it isn't the cheapest. I also use Power Service Diesel Kleen just about every tank. I'm confident it's not "bad fuel".

A brief history of this engine.

~110,000 miles: Bought car. Began using Schaeffer Supreme 9000 5w40 oil right away after hearing about camshaft problems.
~130,000: Replaced noisy DMF for SMF. Saw a very clean engine bay on backside. No leaks, nothing.
*Fuel economy around 45 mpg avg. (manual calculation)*

Noticed some black tail pipe smoke and a very quiet hissing that I mistook for a normal noise.
~145,000: Replaced camshaft (minor sharp edges, not severe).
*Fuel economy drops to 41-43 mpg. Entire intake system is very clean during camshaft change. Tried messing with Torsion value to get some mpg back. The more negative, the better the mpg but also more smoke. Settled at 0.5kw for no smoke and just dealt with being lucky to get 43mpg.*


~172,000 miles: Check engine light on for Emissions Workshop, two glow plugs tested bad and getting a code for something like "running rich". Can't remember the exact code. Tail pipe smoke has been getting worse. Fuel economy had been steadily getting worse. Can't even hit 40mpg any more while driving calmly, like always. Actually getting some 35mpg tanks. Investigation finds clogged intake (first picture).
-Removed intake manifold and cleaned it of all gunk. Cleaned EGR and ASV area. Some gunk on it, but not enough to block movement. Verified ASV works properly according to VCDS.
-Could not get all the gunk out of the intake runners. Didn't want to push it down onto the valve, but I did try my best.
-Also noticed driver side e-brake cable had been sticking and causing dragging. Fixed that at same time. Fuel economy only improved slightly; hovering around 40. Still smoking at startup and at high pedal input or 2000+ rpm.


-Replaced MAF and O2 sensor: no change.


-Noticed dry black soot all over back of engine bay from behind the EGR valve. Hissing noise has very gradually gotten a little louder, but not obnoxious.


-Replaced EGR assembly.

~185,000: Changed timing belt - noticed fuel economy improvement from upper 30s back to 43ish. Torsion value was at -2.0kW. Check engine light comes back on; Emissions workshop + another bad glow plug. Black smoke is pretty bad. Changed torsion value to -1.0kW. Smoke is still bad, CEL is still on. MPG is still 40+, but too soon to know a good average. Was able to get 50mpg on a long trip driving 70, but that's the only time that happens.

Now we're all caught up to today. The intake manifold has become clogged up again. Can't get 45 mpg when driving like I should be touching 50. It's not yet as bad as in that photo, but it's maybe a quarter of the way there and sticky and gooey as hell.


Final notes:
Oil changes happen every 10k miles. Still using Schaeffer 5w40 Fuel filter changes happen every 20k miles and is currently only 11,000 miles old. I'm on my 3rd? air filter since owning the car. That reminds me, the hot air flap in the lower air box seems to be always open because of a spring pulling it open. Previous VWs I've had, the hot air flap had a weak spring pushing it shut. Is this how these air boxes are supposed to work?


Summary:
-Bought clean engine
-Started using 5w40
-Changed camshaft: worse f.e.
-F.E. gets even worse, CEL comes on, intake is gunky
-Cleaned intake, replace parking brake cable, change O2 sensor/MAF/EGR
-Change timing belt, intake gunky again, plenty of exhaust smoke
 
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firehawk618

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Location
Marysville, WA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI, 2dr, M6, Stock
Imo unless your intake is gunked enough to cause a substantial air restriction then I don't believe that to be the cause of your economy/smoke.

Very detailed post and I'm sure someone who has been through this will offer advise.
 

bobthefarmer

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Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2006.5 Jetta Mk 5 192K miles; 2012 Car of the Year, Passat Tdi SE+Nav in blue nightgown, shod in 18 inch heels
I would not agree that your picture shows a "Clogged" intake, like older models. My BRM looked about the same at 120K miles and I scraped out what I could from the intake hole by the EGV Valve. No change to operation and a 'risk' to contaminate the combustion chamber with debris. I don't have smoke, except from severe acceleration. I have a little smoke on start-up, which I guess is slight leak down from the Valve Guides, but only .3 L consumption per 10K miles. That smoke at your EGR cooler must really obnoxious in your cabin. I hope you did a Bushing Modification or weld up the stem and just let the cooler bypass or go 50/50. I did the bushing and kept it functional and it has lasted four years thus far. Frank06 just takes out the flapper under that leaking stem and welds the hole shut. Any loss there is parasitic to boost, so Lower FE.
 
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bobthefarmer

Veteran Member
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Aug 11, 2013
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2006.5 Jetta Mk 5 192K miles; 2012 Car of the Year, Passat Tdi SE+Nav in blue nightgown, shod in 18 inch heels
43 MPG ain't too bad.

Imo unless your intake is gunked enough to cause a substantial air restriction then I don't believe that to be the cause of your economy/smoke.
I concur with Firehawk618. 41-43 seems pretty good for a BRM. I get about 40 most times with my DSG and am conscientious, but travel relatively fast 70+ MPH.
 

bherman13

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
I would not agree that your picture shows a "Clogged" intake, like older models. My BRM looked about the same at 120K miles and I scraped out what I could from the intake hole by the EGV Valve. No change to operation and a 'risk' to contaminate the combustion chamber with debris. I don't have smoke, except from severe acceleration. I have a little smoke on start-up, which I guess is slight leak down from the Valve Guides, but only .3 L consumption per 10K miles. That smoke at your EGR cooler must really obnoxious in your cabin. I hope you did a Bushing Modification or weld up the stem and just let the cooler bypass or go 50/50. I did the bushing and kept it functional and it has lasted four years thus far. Frank06 just takes out the flapper under that leaking stem and welds the hole shut. Any loss there is parasitic to boost, so Lower FE.
Would this be what people are talking about when they say a "thin film" of stuff? If it were much much cleaner when I first got the car, do you think that is enough to indicate there is a real problem? It also came back much faster this time around after I cleaned it around 170k.

I replaced the EGR with a new one. I got 60k-170k out of the one that was on it depending on whether the previous owner replaced or not. I figured if I could get that interval on the next one, I'd be alright. I was considering getting a tune that would reduce how often the EGR is used to hopefully extend it's life also. Is that sound logic or no?
 
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Rembrant

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Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
TDI
2013 Golf TDI DSG
My BRM looked about the same at 120K miles and I scraped out what I could...
I bought my 06 BRM last year with 119k miles on it, and my intake manifold also looked the same. I removed and cleaned the EGR valve, etc..but just scraped what I could clean on the inlet of the intake...I really just tried to remove the lip and taper the crud inwards so no chunks would break off.

Would this be what people are talking about when they say a "thin film" of stuff?
I assume so, but have no idea. I was a bit surprised to find mine built up as well after reading that it never happens.

I have since replaced the cam and timing belt, and will leave the intake cleaning until later when I change the turbo. My BRM seems to be running fine...idle stabilization is almost zero on all cylinders, and MPG is OK at 43-44 most of the time. No smoke that I can see, at any time.

I had hoped for a consistent 45 mpg with the car, thinking anything above that was gravy, but I haven't screwed around with it much either. After I installed the cam, my torision landed @ -1.0 and my first tank of fuel got me 45.6 mpg all highway. I bumped it up to 0.0 even, and I've gotten 43 mpg every tank since.
 

bherman13

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
get an egr delete tune from Mark, it costs $99
the intake will never clog again
http://www.malonetuning.com/pd-tdi
I'm definitely going to do that. Might go with a stage one with it if it'll help me get a couple more mpg.

This might be a stupid question, but how does one go about loading a tune? Do you have to send the ECU in, or do you have to buy or borrow a tune-loader of some sort?
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
How do your MAF sensor readings look....specified compared to actual?
Do you know if the MAF sensor was ever replaced?
 

bluesmoker

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Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Maple Ridge, B.C.
TDI
2004 pd 5 speed tip
I'm definitely going to do that. Might go with a stage one with it if it'll help me get a couple more mpg.

This might be a stupid question, but how does one go about loading a tune? Do you have to send the ECU in, or do you have to buy or borrow a tune-loader of some sort?

I have stage 1.5 and egr delete, it is essentially smoke free except when you floor it at low rpm (takes a sec for the turbo to catch up)



i got another 4 mpg on the highway, and way more low end torque:D
 

bherman13

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
How do your MAF sensor readings look....specified compared to actual?
Do you know if the MAF sensor was ever replaced?
My MAF readings were matching close enough to specified and were staying up around/above 800 at full throttle if I can recall correctly. I can try to find my logs later if I need to verify something.

When I read a thread that someone mentioned they've seen a MAF give decent readings and still be the problem, I decided to replace my MAF. That was after 170k.
 

bherman13

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Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
I have stage 1.5 and egr delete, it is essentially smoke free except when you floor it at low rpm (takes a sec for the turbo to catch up)



i got another 4 mpg on the highway, and way more low end torque:D

Do you notice slower warm-up or any other side effects by doing the full delete? I've been thinking about doing the Dynamic EGR, figuring it'll still drastically reduce EGR usage but not have any ill side effects?
 

JETaah

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Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
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96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
My MAF readings were matching close enough to specified and were staying up around/above 800 at full throttle if I can recall correctly. I can try to find my logs later if I need to verify something.

When I read a thread that someone mentioned they've seen a MAF give decent readings and still be the problem, I decided to replace my MAF. That was after 170k.
My concern would be if the new MAF sensor replacement was a cheapo AIP brand or the like...not a Bosch or Pierburg. If I see that the car has one of the cheapo MAFs, I can almost always expect some errors in the readings.
 
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bherman13

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
My concern would be if the new MAF sensor replacement was a cheapo AIP brand or the like...not a Bosch or Pierburg. If I see that the car has one of the cheapo MAFs, I can almost always expect some errors in the readings.
It was a Bosch.
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
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Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
bherman,

I suspect you are dealing a bad turbo control.
See this: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/turbo-stop-screw-adjustment-tdi-engine-zip-tie-engine-hesitation/

Test it and ensure that the boost changes during the test are within 80-250 range.

Also, any exhaust leaks should be fixed. Not sure if you fixed your EGR cooler leak but you should. Make sure you don't hear any hissing sounds during partial or full acceleration. As hissing sound means a leak of air which has been accounted as entered the system (through MAF). Even if it was supposed to be recirculated but leaked to atmosphere, this causes error in accounting. ECU gives more fuel but the quanity or air calculated contains an error, which is why it ends up with rich mixture (and soot, which is unburnt fuel). That might be a reason of poor fuel economy.

Also, check your rear brakes for draging. One again! When the car if lifted in the air, rear wheel should freespin minimum full 3 turns when spun with sufficient force. 6 turns is realistically expected.
 

bherman13

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Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Thanks so much for that info, Henrick. I will certainly look into the turbo.

As for the EGR, I did in fact replace it with a new one and the hissing noise that I was mistaken for a "normal" noise went away completely.

I believe the brakes are fine, but will check them again anyways to be sure.

Thanks also to everyone that's given input in this thread so far.
 

bherman13

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Question: Does the "zip-tie mod" cure turbo responsiveness, or lack of boost?

I don't know if I'm having a low boost issue or not, but I'm trying to understand the function.
 

N.CaTDI

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Apr 9, 2010
Location
NorthBay San Francisco, CA
TDI
2005.5 Jetta
Question: Does the "zip-tie mod" cure turbo responsiveness, or lack of boost?

I don't know if I'm having a low boost issue or not, but I'm trying to understand the function.
Zip tie mode adjust the turbo as if you adjusted the set screw. Set screw can brake and is best to not to move it. If your turbo is in good shape it works well. If your turbo is bad it will not help you. It is an easy fix to try to see if it can be helpful.
 

Henrick

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Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
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Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Zip tie mod isn't the real thing, it's just a wild guess. Because actuator rod should also be adjusted. I believe that the proper adjustment would be at a specialized shop with proper equipment but zip tie mod is sufficient enough to cure most of the sympthoms.
 

bherman13

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Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Well I have done exactly nothing to the turbo since owning the car, so it's worth my time to look into it to see if it's healthy. I've checked MAP levels with VCDS in the past and they looked ok to me, but I guess I'm not 100% sure what counts as "ok".
 

JETaah

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Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Did you check out the diagnostic procedure on Myturbodiesel.com mentioned in the #16th post?
That should explain what is happening and how to see if your turbo is within an acceptable range. I find that a turbo with an OFF-ON range of about 180 mbar should eliminate the possibility that the turbo stop screw is your issue.

I have stopped trying to adjust the stop screw to remedy this due to a couple of times when the cast ear that supports the stop screw broke off while trying to loosen the jam nut. Things get too rusty here in Michigan. Now, I have implemented a bracket and a split collar that can be added from the top side.


fully retracted


fully actuated
 

kbaisley

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2002
Location
Midwest
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI 5spd
Love the "Bush Fix" for actuator JETaah. Going to have to remember that one for when one of mine fails.
 

firehawk618

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Aug 20, 2003
Location
Marysville, WA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI, 2dr, M6, Stock
I like that repair a lot better than the zip tie one.

On my car it had no power until 2k then wham it all hit. Actuator readings were within spec in vagcom. Added the zip tie and it feels better now.

I will eventually try to get the adjuster adjusted though. I do have a spare turbo in case I mess it up.
 

bherman13

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Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
JETaah, I did check out that procedure. I had never heard of that before. I will certainly look into that once I get the car back. It is in the body shop for the next week.
 

bherman13

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Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Ran the "Charge Pressure Control" test. High value 1122 mbar, low value 938.4 mbar for a difference of 183.6 mbar.

I guess that means the turbo stop screw is right where it should be?

I have snapshots of the test if you need to see them. Also ran the EGR test along with it, but I don't know what numbers I'm supposed to see. I also have those if you want to see them.
 

N.CaTDI

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Apr 9, 2010
Location
NorthBay San Francisco, CA
TDI
2005.5 Jetta
Ran the "Charge Pressure Control" test. High value 1122 mbar, low value 938.4 mbar for a difference of 183.6 mbar.

I guess that means the turbo stop screw is right where it should be?

I have snapshots of the test if you need to see them. Also ran the EGR test along with it, but I don't know what numbers I'm supposed to see. I also have those if you want to see them.
Yes that appears to be right on. I think I was at 250 and adjusted it down to 150 with zip tie. You may want to try a plastic zip tie just to see if it helps easy to do and cost a few pennies.
 

bherman13

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Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Yes that appears to be right on. I think I was at 250 and adjusted it down to 150 with zip tie. You may want to try a plastic zip tie just to see if it helps easy to do and cost a few pennies.

If I throw a plastic zip tie on there, what value should I be shooting for to test for an improvement?

I got a chance to take the intake off this past week and was able to see that the current gunk buildup is nowhere near as bad as it was last time. It is definitely nowhere near clogging up the intake or the valves.

I'll definitely be tuning out the EGR for long term results, but I'm hoping to find some mpg back before then if possible.

I changed the torsion value from the -1.0 I had it on to 0.0 and the car is still smoking out the tail pipe, just a little less than previously. It gives a puff of black right around every shift or if the throttle is 100%.

Any ideas of what else could be going bad? What's the likeliness the cat might be bad and how could I check? Do the injectors on BRMs wear out? Car has about 187k miles on original injectors.
 
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bherman13

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Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2006 BRM 5spd
Any ideas of what else could be going bad? What's the likeliness the cat might be bad and how could I check? Do the injectors on BRMs wear out? Car has about 187k miles on original injectors.

Anyone here have any experience regarding these questions?
 

Henrick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Ireland
TDI
Golf VI TDI, 77 kW (CAYC)
Everything wears out. PD is a wear engine on everything - be it cams, egr coolers, DMFs, injectors, cylinder heads or even intercooler hose clips and hoses themselves.

At that mileage you might have wear on injector bores on the cyl head. Worth checking.
Injectors typically last a bit longer but it's not uncommon to see a work injector or two at that miles also.
 
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