Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

OHV? I think not. And for your reference, just about ALL Japanese car companies produce diesels, they just don't sell them in the US.

Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Suzuki, Isuzu, Daihatsu, Nissan. All make diesel vehicles, and they're all OHC designs, and efficient modern ones at that. The only oddity on that list is Suzuki, who don't actually use their own engine, preferring to pick from the best of the current crop for their vehicles- over the years they've used Mazda and PSA (and another Euro III compliant beast in some markets that I've not yet ID'd) and are now raiding the GM parts bin for their small cars...
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Well I guess I was wrong about saying Japanese would build them ohv but still nobody has given me a good solid engineering reason why it is bad idea just not modern or inefficient old. Give me a gear driven cam any day over a belt in a low rev app. I have seen hundreds of engines engines apart in my life an have never seen ohv cam gear failure but I am sure if looked hard enough I would find one. Dan
 

nortones2

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan: component numbers for an ohv engine also include drives to the camshaft(s) wherever they are! So, in addition to 8 pushrods (old tech TDI) you need the same number of drives, their ancillaries etc. As for induction, the turbo is in place already- its a given. So any additional measures are not required for induction reasons. Occams razor.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I did not include the gears because I also did not include the belt drive sprockets in my analysis (More typing)it is a wash. Push rods are cheap. Yes your point about it is what's common is a good one for standardization reasons. But can you give me a good reason its a bad from an engineering stand point. On the multivalve issue the more air you can put the motor the more fuel also, more power. Centralized injector or spark very good thing. Multivalve is very good reason to put the cams in the head that is what the new honda diesel has. Dan
 

dieseldorf

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Did you guys know that MOTUL will be one of the first to market with these new lo-SAPS oils!

VW 504.00 und 507.00
Beschreiben speziell formulierte low SAPS-Öle - Motorenöle mit geringem Schwefel- , Phosphor- und Sulfatascheanteil. Speziell für die neuen Modelle mit WIV und EURO IV-Benzinmotoren bzw. Dieselmotoren mit Rußpartikelfilter.
 

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I will give a real good reason the car company's might go ohc for their diesels !!! MARKETING !!! do you want two or three or four blades on your razor, how many times over sampling does your CD player have we are all suckers for this nonsense. Common folks give me a good engineering reason why an ohv diesel is bad. It is old, low tech, you have to put the cam somewhere, more expensive, all of these don't cut it. Take your choice what would rather have in a low reving diesel, gear drive for the cam like a $100,000 racing engine or a rubber belt. What real problem does ohv create? Dan
Modern VW diesel have no room for marketing folks, the engineers are taking up all the space needed to make the modern engines meet EU4 and Tier II emissions standards. Imagine a pushrod engine operating a central injector and 4 valves...



DB
 

Drivbiwire

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I did not include the gears because I also did not include the belt drive sprockets in my analysis (More typing)it is a wash. Push rods are cheap. Yes your point about it is what's common is a good one for standardization reasons. But can you give me a good reason its a bad from an engineering stand point. On the multivalve issue the more air you can put the motor the more fuel also, more power. Centralized injector or spark very good thing. Multivalve is very good reason to put the cams in the head that is what the new honda diesel has. Dan
The 4 valve 2.0 TDI is a thing of beauty and to a certain extent simplicity in its fucntion.


DB
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Good point dorf. Hey if people want to start a new thread to tell me I am crazy let them do it. DBW thanks for making a lot of my points valid. Does the 2.0 TDI have a belt? I would not be surprized to see a chain on the honda. It will be interesting to see how long it's common rail pump lasts. I sill maintain that the 8 valve TDI would of been a better more reliable lower maintance without a performance or emmisions sacrifice with pushrods. Mechanicaly injected 911's from the 70's had a belt to drive the injecton pump off the end of one of the cams. I worked for these folks for four years the design had some shortcomings. Multivalve with pushrods Here is a post from another thead that sums up well what happened. Dan
Well, one of the reasons for OHC was to have less reciprocating valvetrain mass, and that's not really applicable to a diesel engine. For an in-line engine, an OHC arrangement is less expensive to manufacture, and the pushrods don't get in the way of the intake and exhaust ports. I know of no in-line-arrangement pushrod automotive engines that have been designed in the modern era. (There's still a few hold-overs in production which were designed shortly after the stone age ...) V-type arrangements are a different story, the arrangement lends itself to having the camshaft between the two banks. A Ford pushrod 5.0 is quite a bit more compact than the OHC 4.6.

The original Rabbit diesel engine with the external injector pump really lends itself to having a timing belt. It would be a lot more complicated to drive the external injector pump any other way. This same philosophy applies to the distributor-pump TDI engines. Yes, it could be done with a chain or gears, but $ $ $ would be a lot higher.

It's no longer applicable with the P-D. The chain could be integrated into a passage cast into the front of the block, the way everyone else does it. But it would require the block to be redesigned, and the P-D is based off the same block design as the distributor-pump engines. Result, timing belt!

As for pushrods ... The original Rabbit engine was meant to be a more-or-less common arrangement between gasoline and diesel versions. Pushrods would not have been a good plan for the gasoline version, so out goes that idea.
 

Drivbiwire

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Sorry dude the fact is Pushrods are not possible due to the flow through head design of the 2.0 4 valve design. Primary reasons pushrods have all together been dropped is because of the increased weight and size of the block as well as moving mass and additional part content.

The 2.0 4valve actuates 2 valves with one cam lobe. The play is taken up by integrated lifters into each of the rocker arm to valve contact points.

What you are not taking into account is that the mass each of the valve springs has to move is limited to just the 1/2 the rocker assembly's total weight.

Funny thing is even Harley Davidson figured out long ago that belt drive is superior to chain drive.

In the following picture you can see that there are only a few wearable parts: Tensioner bearing, Lower guide idler bearing, water pump. Why is it so difficult to replace these items every 100,000 miles?



DB
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I have never said pushrods are a good idea with a 4 valve head I have seen first hand right next to the dyno the problems it create's. It is very interesting to see it has been done by a small family owned company but I don't want to bash it too much they are good friends of mine. The biggest problem with it is the heavy loading on the push rods(one p rod for two valves)bent pushrod. Belts for a motor cycle great idea, for a diesel engine horrible idea. Belt snaps on a bike your stranded. Diesel engine half of your engine is junk if your lucky. Dan
 

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

belt snaps on a m/c in the middle of a passing manoever, you die...
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

One of the reasons I stay off the crazy things. Dan
 

SUNRG

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan,

Since the timing belt is on a 100k change interval, are you maintaining that a chain will last indefinitely.

I have never owned a vehicle with a timing chain, but drive chains on bikes and motorcycles all wear and eventually fail if not replaced.

cheers!
 

dieseldorf

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Timing chains on diesels don't last forever. They stretch, they trash the gears and then everything is out of sync and needs to be replaced....not a minor repair.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I have not been around diesels enough to comment on chains on a diesel but I have seen many gassers have the chain last the life of the motor. Yes they need chains, rails and sprockets replaced at the overhaul. The big thing I like about chains is they warn you with noise before they snap. The pump on a diesel is going to add more load to the chain which is a factor, which is why I am curious about the common rail honda pump If it's lasts honda is realy going to have a world beater. Am I right that a common rail pump is driven by other than the chain? Dan
 

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

CR-pump takes the place of the VE- pump in your engine. In some, it is on the end of the camshaft, on others seperate. The little Toyota Yaris diesel has it at the end where the vacuum pump resides on a TDI, the Merc CDI has it at the front end. The CR- pump is MUCH easier to drive than a VE pump tho, as it has three sets of pistons and much lighter return springs. Bosch talk about (cant remember the exact figure) a third or a fifth of the loading at full power, with less extremes of drive torque.

camchains have come a long way in recent times- said Yaris diesel has a chain, for example. But it is widely acknowledged that chains do in fact have a finite life...

CR is great, but the pump can be killed by bad fuel as quickly (or even quicker) as a distributor pump. Tolerances are even tighter, and they REALLY don't like dirt and water.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

What would be more expensive to repair a destoyed head from a belt failure or a dead cr pump? dan
 

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

pretty similar. A CR- pump for the HDI is around £600 list at the dealer. Unlikely that it could damage cam or belt in failure, but it's common for them to shed particles whilst in their death throes which can mean four injectors at £250 each...
 

jddaigle

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

IIRC the PD must use a belt because of the momentary rise in tension applied to the belt when the injector plungers are pushed down by the cam lobes. The belt is designed to stretch in a controlled manner to account for this. Anyone have more info on this feature? I've misplaced my link.
 

Drivbiwire

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

As long as you replace the belt every 100,000 miles the belt will NEVER fail. I don't understand why you are so focused on what "Could" happen verses what "Will" happen, what will happen is you will replace your belt at the specified interval and have 0 failures.

The belt during its entire life will result in no sprocket wear, no worn guides and minimal time and cost to maintain.

Fact chains DO NOT always give warning. My fathers Benz gave no warning of impending doom and destroyed a $7,000 engine in the process. If a belt fails sure it damages the valves but that is usually the result of the belt being pushed beyond its recomended limits OR improper installation. If you think a belt is difficult to change try changing out all the components of a chain drive system...

Any motor with a chain is a throw away meaning its not meant to go much beyond 300,000 miles without major servicing.

DB
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Very good jddaigle an engineering reason a chain or a gear drive might not be a good idea for a PD. Are there any cars or the touareg with out the belt PD combo? I suppose you could compensate for the positive connection that gears would give you by making the shape of the PD lobe different. Maybe the softening effect that a belt would give is the best for the unit injectors. We don't have a VW engineer here to ask and if we did he might not tell us. A lot more interesting than "why go backwards" or "you only have to change the belt every 100k". Yes DBW I have seen belts fail before the service interval. A small not noticed cam seal leak is all it would take. Some body I new with a suzuki swift GT had this happen to him luckily it was a non interference motor. I would guesstamate a good set of gears would last a 1000k Dan
 

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

V10 is PD and gear drive, is it not? Maybe the've got some kind of sprung hub in the cam pulley, anybody know?

Did you guys in the US get the old Ford V6 gasser with the fibre-rimmed cam drive gear that shed it's teeth? Terrible things, they were. Noisy as heck too if you replaced it with a sold steel gear...
 

dieseldorf

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

self-explanatory:





thanks to nortones2 for sharing this info
 

SUNRG

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

just thought i'd copy this information here since it's really just a continuation of the 504 / 507 discussion...

The slides below were created just two days ago. Laurent will be importing ELF SOLARIS LLX 5W30 (504.00 / 507.00) to North America <u>as soon as it is available</u> and he projects April 2005 (yes - next month!).

This will be the first time that I know of that a VW Oil Spec will be available in North America at the same time it becomes available in Europe!

The RNT testing 504 / 507 oils undergo is identical to the very demanding 506.01 testing - but as dieseldorf has already revealed - 504 / 507 adds Diesel Particulate Filter compatibility and it consolidates the VW oil specifications.

It is important to note that while FE (fuel economy) is a characteristic of the 506.00 / 506.01 oils - 504.00 / 507.00 is not considered a Fuel Economy oil. 507 will likely provide increased fuel economy when compared to 505 oils but, 506.01 ensures the same protection as 507 with better fuel economy and no DPF compatibility.

I guess something had to be compromised when creating a do-it-all VW specification. The FE issue is probably why the V10 and R5 TDIs are still required to use 506.01 - e.g. VW does not want fuel economy estimates to drop in vehicles equipped with these larger engines.


 

nicklockard

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

but still nobody has given me a good solid engineering reason why it is bad idea
Generally speaking, a 2-valve OHV diesel could have some of the benefits you've outlined previously; however, what you are failing to see is that VW engineers have chosen pumpe-duese injection technology. Its main benefit is a shortened injection interval and higher pressures over a distributer pumped or common-railed system, if I understand correctly. Since the distance from cam lobe to PD plunger is so short, there is very little mechanical lash. Moreover, diesel fuel is a COMPRESSIBLE fluid. That means that over a fuel tube length of more than a few inches, it will exhibit the hydraulic compression-wave effect (a compression wave travels up and down the length, and the mass flow of fuel is concordantly slowed because you have to wait for the compression wave to travel. Addtionally, the wave spreads out the duration of the injection window in a manner related by the Navier-Stokes equation, dependent on temperature, viscosity, fuel makeup and additives, shear-forces and other factors.) This is one of the inherent design limitation of the VE pumped design. It is why VW engineers chose to not simply increase the injection pressures of the VE pump. It would have had a longer injection duration, and this would have complicated timing and reduced parameter flexibility for meeting emisions and fuel economy goals!

Recall that the Tdi's are injected rather late (retarded timing) to limit NOx production. Simply advancing the timing into the optimal range will accomplish a slight increase in power and fuel economy (if power not used all the time) in the VE design--(while NOx will go up.) However, there is a limit to this, as the hydraulic effect means that the injection duration will have a fixed width unless you upgrade nozzles. This is the primary reason why nozzle upgrades are the preffered first upgrade at tdiclub!

The engineers are trying to balance NOx limiting strategies with power and efficiency. If they were to try to activate a PD nozzle by rocker, in turn activated by pushrod, in turn activated by cam lobe, there would be more mechanical lash in addition to the hydraulic effect. The net result would be an injection interval spread out MORE (and more variable(!)) than the current PD design. It would probably be WORSE than the VE design. Purely speculating, (since I don't have a supercomputer to solve the Navier-Stokes for this), I'd guess that the arrival time distribution would be gaussian or skewed gaussian, since there are ~16 differnt molecules in standard D2.


I am quite confident that if VW engineers were given carte-blanche to design a clean-sheet Tdi motor, they would ABSOLUTELY retain an overhead cam. Engineers aren't boneheads, you know. They have reasons for what they do.


Your ideas about 2-valve OHV design would certainly be fine for actuating valves but at increased parts cost. There's a reason no one is doing OHC. The next wave may be peizo-electric actuated direct injectors. Common rail also has room to grow and develop. The engineers still have lots of play in required parameters. Pumpe-duese opened up a new window of parameter 'play space' for the engineers. That is why VE has been abandoned. They'd run out of parameter 'play space' with that design. No way to meet future NOx emmissions goals and hit the other goals concurrently.


That's my 2 Wheatbacks.


Alrighty, back to 504/507 topic: Can't wait for them to get this deployed in NA
It will simplify things nicely!







PS: I think you should read the FAQ if you haven't in a while. It lays out the theory pretty well.


Edit: added post-script. Caveat: I'm no engineer--I'm a chemist, but I appreciate the complexity of the fluid dynamics involved.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Thanks nicklockard sounds reasonable to me. I agree pushrods would never work to operate the unit injectors that's why I said use fuel lines and I never took into account the affect the larger volume of fuel down stream of the plunger would have, good point. Although a OHV would work great on a VE motor but that's only academic now with PD. I work with electronics and pulses and oscillations all have to taken into account. For me it has always been about the engineering and not to prove somebody else is wrong. I drive my wife nuts with my ramblings on engineering and she wants me to talk about feelings. Now If you could convince me 505.01 is not a VW conspiracy. Dan
 

nicklockard

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I drive my wife nuts with my ramblings on engineering and she wants me to talk about feelings.



I feel that VW engineers felt good about the new 505.01 specif..er...'feeling.'

Okay, enough of my silliness. 505.01 is just a very good oil for its intended application. Recall that Tier II bin5 Euro standards are approaching for them. VW needs every little trick up their sleeves to meet new emissions mandates and fuel economy goals. That is what is driving 505.01 and 506.01, in addition to the extreme lubrication requirements.

I 'feel' it's a Euro and CARB state conspiracy!
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Yes the way we do motor oil in the US could use some improvement but I sure don't want to go the European way. God forbid chevy oil in a ford it will blow up. Oils that don't damage after treatment make sence. More often than not a quality oil will work well many different engines if the viscosity is right. The European way is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
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