Break-In

[TornadoRed]

If you go back to the top post, here is what Drivbiwire wrote:

"Redline is defined as the maximum rpm allowed by the engine, in the case of all TDI's it is 5,100 rpm. The maximum physical limit of a TDI engine due in part to it's short stroke is approximately 8,800 rpm (this is when you will throw a rod or damage a piston, this rpm is not possible unless you force a downshift into 1st gear while driving 80mph)

The instrument cluster shows a red BAND starting at or around 4600 rpm, most owners will find that very little power resides beyond this point due mostly to the ECU reducing fueling to respect the smoke map."

He also wrote: "avoid steady rpms and avoid the use of cruise control. occasional application of full throttle (100%) is recomended to help seat the rings." He never said to accelerate to redline, or to cruise with the engine at redline, but instead recommended shift points which were 50% of redline when the engine is cold and 60% when warm.

As I recall, when my Golf had the stock engine tune the power dropped off sharply around 4200-4400 rpm -- it was totally gutless. The dyno printouts I've seen all show a similar shape to the power curve for newer TDIs, unless or until they receive a custom engine tune. So I don't think any new TDI owners will be revving to 5000 rpm during the breaking-in process, even if they want to.

 

[HBarlow]

If you go back to the top post, here is what Drivbiwire wrote:

"Redline is defined as the maximum rpm allowed by the engine, in the case of all TDI's it is 5,100 rpm. The maximum physical limit of a TDI engine due in part to it's short stroke is approximately 8,800 rpm (this is when you will throw a rod or damage a piston, this rpm is not possible unless you force a downshift into 1st gear while driving 80mph)

The instrument cluster shows a red BAND starting at or around 4600 rpm, most owners will find that very little power resides beyond this point due mostly to the ECU reducing fueling to respect the smoke map."

He also wrote: "avoid steady rpms and avoid the use of cruise control. occasional application of full throttle (100%) is recomended to help seat the rings." He never said to accelerate to redline, or to cruise with the engine at redline, but instead recommended shift points which were 50% of redline when the engine is cold and 60% when warm.

As I recall, when my Golf had the stock engine tune the power dropped off sharply around 4200-4400 rpm -- it was totally gutless. The dyno printouts I've seen all show a similar shape to the power curve for newer TDIs, unless or until they receive a custom engine tune. So I don't think any new TDI owners will be revving to 5000 rpm during the breaking-in process, even if they want to.

Back pedaling now are you?

I don't know, or care, who drivbiwire is but his definition, like most of the recommendations and opinions suggesting the TDI engine is a high rpm engine, is bogus. If he is a VW engineer please let me know and I'll reconsider my opinion of his definition.

Likewise his suggestion for use of full throttle during break-in is counter to what the VW owners manual recommends. I'll place my confidence in the recommendations of VW.

Lastly, the VW TDI engine is not a short stroke engine as your quote claims. It has a relatively long stroke as do most if not all inline diesel engines. The TDI is considered an "undersquare engine" because the length of the stroke is greater than the bore diameter. Bore 3.1" or 79.5 mm. Stroke 3.6" or 95.5 mm.

The redline on any tachometer of any internal combustion engine is a warning to driver's not to operate the engine in that rpm range. A decent analogy is a red traffic light or stop sign on a public road. The red light or stop sign means and is clearly understood by all who see one or the other that red means stop before entering the intersection. The tach redline on our VWs should be interpreted the same. You don't drive your car into or through an intersection against a red light and should know better than to operate your engine rpm in the redline.

What some of you seem to now be claiming is the redline may be the engine speed at which engine rpm is governed or it may be the point where defueling takes place. I don't know because I have not operated my engine in that range and have no reason to.

I do know as an absolute indisputable fact that an engine which produces maximum torque between 1750 and 2700 rpm and maximum horsepower at 4000 rpm should not be operated above 4000 rpm and there is no reason to ever do so. Power plummets like dropping a brick in a pond beyond 4000 rpm.

 

[Jbdesigns]

I haven't seen recommendations to operate over 4000 rpm. And while the term revving might get used here, 4000 rpm is NOT high rpm for an engine. This is not high rpm at all.

We know this is a Diesel engine with torque down low, but occasional squirts to 4000 rpm are good for keeping the turbo clean and for breaking in the rings.

If you believe that VW would never be in error in a manual or with their recommendations, ever? Are they extra conservative because all walks of people buy their products, of course so. All mfrs give conservative advice. They must. I have written a fair share of manuals for very expensive equipment that can be in the millions of $$. I also provide the most conservative recommendations and instructions possible to minimize warranty issues from operators who are not as capable as they should be.

Anyways, no one has to follow the advice here. However, those that have or provided the advice are experiencing good results.

 

[HBarlow]

We can continue to disagree about the need to run the engine up to 4000 rpm to clean the turbo and seat piston rings.

The turbocharger spins up to in excess of 100,000 rpm under moderate throttle and highway cruise speed. The turbo will not be dirty at any time an engine is driven moderately. Simply accelerating under moderate throttle up an interstate acceleration ramp to the speed limit will prevent a turbo from becoming soot loaded.

Piston rings don't require high rpm to wear in and seat on modern diesel engines. The compression ratio of any diesel engine is somewhere in the range of 12:1 to 14:1. Plenty of pressure is placed on piston rings.

If your advice were valid how do you explain the fact that thousands of VW TDIs are sold to college girls, older woman teachers, families with no mechanical skills or interest, and extremely conservative older citizens none of whom use full throttle acceleration or high rpm operation and do not experience high oil consumption?

If VW were experiencing warranty complaints and claims because owners drive their cars too gently owner's manuals would prescribe some full throttle acceleration after some specified number of miles.

We can agree on your comment that no one has to follow advice given here but until I disagreed the only advice being given was nonsense about revving the engine even on a brand new engine with few miles.

As I've said more than once, I don't care what each individual does with his car. It's his money, his car, and his choice to make. My interest was to point out the fact that advice being offered ran counter to the manufacturer's written guidance and made little sense to someone who understands gasoline and diesel engines. I have expressed a different opinion. Readers can read my thoughts if they wish. They can also choose to ignore my comments and use full throttle acceleration up to governed engine speed in their new TDIs if they choose.

 

[40X40]

Nothing if the same people know what they are talking about. Many here who are advising newcomers to rev their engines to or near redline all the time because of some imagined advantage are giving bad advice.

Does a VW TDI owners manual advise new owners to drive their cars around in lower gears revving the engine to redline? Of course not.

Does any VW TDI owner's manual advise owners to frequently use full throttle to accelerate to the redline? No, it does not.

The fact that a few members repeat this advice does not change the fact that it is BAD ADVICE.

High rpm operation as a routine matter consumes more fuel and increases wear on the engine and is completely unnecessary.

Show me anything VW has offered in print advising owners to operate their TDI engines at high rpm and I will cheerfully agree that you are correct.

Can you tell us WHO are the 'MANY' that I highlighted in your quote?

Or you can continue to backpedal.

Bill

 

[TornadoRed]

I don't know, or care, who drivbiwire is...

He was one of the original members of TDI Club, with a join date in October 1998. By the time I joined in 2003, he was already acknowledged as one of the handful of TDI gurus. Thousands of people know him, either personally or by reputation.

You, on the other hand, joined a couple months ago. You have no credentials. You have not impressed anyone with any knowledge that you might have brought with you to the TDI Club.

The bottom line, is, Drivbiwire has credibility and you have none. It must suck to be you.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Piston rings don't require high rpm to wear in and seat on modern diesel engines. The compression ratio of any diesel engine is somewhere in the range of 12:1 to 14:1. Plenty of pressure is placed on piston rings.

It's actually 16.5 - 19.5 for TDIs depending on year. My old 1.6 turbodiesel Mk2 was 23:1.

Oh look - I'm now subscribed to this thread...

 

[Henrick]

We can continue to disagree about the need to run the engine up to 4000 rpm to clean the turbo and seat piston rings.

The turbocharger spins up to in excess of 100,000 rpm under moderate throttle and highway cruise speed. The turbo will not be dirty at any time an engine is driven moderately. Simply accelerating under moderate throttle up an interstate acceleration ramp to the speed limit will prevent a turbo from becoming soot loaded.

Piston rings don't require high rpm to wear in and seat on modern diesel engines. The compression ratio of any diesel engine is somewhere in the range of 12:1 to 14:1. Plenty of pressure is placed on piston rings.

If your advice were valid how do you explain the fact that thousands of VW TDIs are sold to college girls, older woman teachers, families with no mechanical skills or interest, and extremely conservative older citizens none of whom use full throttle acceleration or high rpm operation and do not experience high oil consumption?

If VW were experiencing warranty complaints and claims because owners drive their cars too gently owner's manuals would prescribe some full throttle acceleration after some specified number of miles.

First. The turbocharger will not be dirty regardless of driving conditions (well, unless it's overfueling). It's the VNT turbo vanes which will become stuck shortly if driven too gently, engine/exhaust gasses don't get to high temps and your car doesn't have DPF (having DPF helps the turbo vaes; each time when regeneration happens, EGTs go really high and burn off soot and carbon contamination not only from DPF but also turbo vanes).

Second. Compression ratios are higher than you mentioned. my current 1.6 CR-TDI has got 16.5:1, my previous PD had 19:1.

Third. Do you have any evidence that naughty schoolgirls and grandpa's don't experience high(er) oil consumption? A daddy in our neighborhood owns a TDI and he's lugging it. He admitted he has never shifted above 2500 RPM. By accident we found nearly one liter of engine oil in the bottom of intercooler in his car. Also, we tried to redline it several times to clean things up. Clouds of black thick smoke was blown out. The entire block was up in smoke. Surprisingly, he reported the car started to drive slightly better after that (better throttle response) but he said he's still not sure about the fuel economy since he hasn't driven it much yet. On, and turbo vanes are also stuck in his turbocharger.

Fourth. Do you know what consumption is 'acceptable' by VW? In fact, if the car doesn't exceed one liter per 1000 km, it is considered normal and no warranty or 'fix it' claims will be accepted by VW. So imagine, your sump capacity is 4.3 liters. You just change your oil. The next oil change is after 15000 km. So you will need 15 more liters of oil to reach the oil change interval. In total, 19.3 liters of oil consumed during 15000 km service. Right?

Finally, have you looked at your owner's manual? At least European-spec owner's manual used to advise driving a turbocharged engine harder. I remember this being written in the section 'Tachometer'. I'd suggest you check your manual again.

 

[HBarlow]

Can you tell us WHO are the 'MANY' that I highlighted in your quote?

Or you can continue to backpedal.

Bill

Here is just one of many:

Jbdesigns: "Excellent advice Don. I am breaking in my new 2012 jetta with very similar techniques. any time i have to accelerate, I use medium to high throttle and wind it out to 4000-4500 rpm, shift again, wind it out and usually just then settle into cruise mode. I always try to rev the engine under load when I accelerate. that really is what helps seat the rings. pressure and rpm both together like you said. I don't exactly drive it like I stole it, but that isn't far from what you need to do at times to break in the thing. it was cold this morning so i took it easy until oil warmed up, then, I got into it acclerating onto the express way. I also have some hills to go over on the way to work, great place to put some load on the engine and use some extra rpm to get up the hills. coasting back down the back side, I can make up a good amount of the mpg lost getting up the hill.

in a nut shell, acclerate using higher rpms with moderate loads anytime you have the chance. even if just getting up to 45mph, you can blip it in 1st to 2500rpm, get into 2nd and wind it out to 4000 or more and then skip shift to 4th or 5th to cruise at the legal limit. that way is good for break in and actually good for mpg. I skip shift all the time. accelerating hard up to the speed I want to get to and then skipping to the proper gear for just maintaining speed for the given road and conditions.

I have already returned 50mpg, 52mpg segments on 60 and 90 mile trips using this technique. engine seems very happy and is getting a little bit stronger too."

If you would like to answer your own question instead of trying to disagree with me simply go back and reread this thread. You'll find many.

 

[HBarlow]

First. The turbocharger will not be dirty regardless of driving conditions (well, unless it's overfueling). It's the VNT turbo vanes which will become stuck shortly if driven too gently, engine/exhaust gasses don't get to high temps and your car doesn't have DPF (having DPF helps the turbo vaes; each time when regeneration happens, EGTs go really high and burn off soot and carbon contamination not only from DPF but also turbo vanes).

Second. Compression ratios are higher than you mentioned. my current 1.6 CR-TDI has got 16.5:1, my previous PD had 19:1.

Third. Do you have any evidence that naughty schoolgirls and grandpa's don't experience high(er) oil consumption? A daddy in our neighborhood owns a TDI and he's lugging it. He admitted he has never shifted above 2500 RPM. By accident we found nearly one liter of engine oil in the bottom of intercooler in his car. Also, we tried to redline it several times to clean things up. Clouds of black thick smoke was blown out. The entire block was up in smoke. Surprisingly, he reported the car started to drive slightly better after that (better throttle response) but he said he's still not sure about the fuel economy since he hasn't driven it much yet. On, and turbo vanes are also stuck in his turbocharger.

Fourth. Do you know what consumption is 'acceptable' by VW? In fact, if the car doesn't exceed one liter per 1000 km, it is considered normal and no warranty or 'fix it' claims will be accepted by VW. So imagine, your sump capacity is 4.3 liters. You just change your oil. The next oil change is after 15000 km. So you will need 15 more liters of oil to reach the oil change interval. In total, 19.3 liters of oil consumed during 15000 km service. Right?

Finally, have you looked at your owner's manual? At least European-spec owner's manual used to advise driving a turbocharged engine harder. I remember this being written in the section 'Tachometer'. I'd suggest you check your manual again.

I'm not going to play your silly games. Do you have any evidence to prove what you just posted? Do you have evidence of service complaints or warranty claims made to VW for high oil consumption due to gentle driving?

I posted the relevent quote regarding break-in procedures from my '09 owners manual. Go back a few posts and read it.

 

[HBarlow]

He was one of the original members of TDI Club, with a join date in October 1998. By the time I joined in 2003, he was already acknowledged as one of the handful of TDI gurus. Thousands of people know him, either personally or by reputation.

You, on the other hand, joined a couple months ago. You have no credentials. You have not impressed anyone with any knowledge that you might have brought with you to the TDI Club.

The bottom line, is, Drivbiwire has credibility and you have none. It must suck to be you.

You quickly descended from bold statements of misinformation with bluff and bluster to a personal attack like a kid.

Try to stick to the discussion. Prove anything I've written is wrong.

 

[BeetleGo]

BHarlow,

You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't seem to be getting any traction here. You may want to agree to disagree with this thread and move on. You're definitely beginning to repeat yourself!

 

[HBarlow]

BHarlow,

You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't seem to be getting any traction here. You may want to agree to disagree with this thread and move on. You're definitely beginning to repeat yourself!

I have posted the VW TDI break-in procedures recommended by VW in the owner's manual, an engine performance graph showing how horsepower falls after 4,000 rpm, and a photo of a dash cluster showing that redline is at 4500 rpm not 5100 as some claim.

If you choose to believe something else or simply don't like what I post that's your problem. Don't read my posts. I will continue to post whatever I please until the moderator deletes my posts or locks me out of the site.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

This thread is done. There is no statistical evidence to support the longevity and performance benefits of any type of break-in regimen on a TDI. You can all argue with each other until your fingers turn blue and it won't change a damned thing. That's it and that's all!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

If you choose to believe something else or simply don't like what I post that's your problem. Don't read my posts. I will continue to post whatever I please until the moderator deletes my posts or locks me out of the site.

You will be respectful to other users or you will get your wish.