Bosch Says It's Made a Breakthrough That Can Save Diesel Engines

Status
Not open for further replies.

witchcraftz

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Location
Vancouver BC
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
“There’s a future for diesel. Today, we want to put a stop, once and for all, to the debate about the demise of diesel technology.” It was with these words that the Bosch CEO Dr. Volkmar Denner, speaking at the company’s annual press conference, announced a decisive breakthrough in diesel technology. A breakthrough in the management of diesel emissions, enabling diesel cars to undercut future limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx) by almost 90 per cent.

Cars must currently emit no more than 168mg/km (milligrams per kilometre) of NOx and, in 2020, that limit will reduce to 120mg/km in real-world driving tests, and 80mg/km in lab assessments. But new technology developed by Bosch allows a diesel VW Golf to emit just 13mg/km of NOx in mixed driving conditions, measured using the latest RDE paradigms.

http://www.ttnews.com/sites/default/files/images/articles/bosch-diesel-engine-factory-germany.jpg

Announcing the breakthrough at the company’s annual press conference, Bosch’s chief executive, Dr Volkmar Denner, said: “There’s a future for diesel. Today, we want to put a stop, once and for all, to the debate about the demise of diesel technology.” Denner said the company was “pushing the boundaries of what is technically feasible.”

Even in urban driving, where emissions are typically far higher than on the open road, cars equipped with the new technology emit around 40mg/km of NOX - roughly a third of the permitted limits being introduced in 2020. This means, Denner said, that “diesel will remain an option in urban traffic, whether drivers are tradespeople or commuters.”

The technology works by managing exhaust gas recirculation and using a combination of advanced fuel-injection technology, a newly developed air management system, and intelligent temperature management. It is effective as soon as a car is started and works at all engine speeds, allowing it to operate effectively whether the vehicle is driven dynamically or slowly, in freezing conditions or in summer temperatures, on the freeway or in congested city traffic. The system is also effective when drivers accelerate quickly.



Journalists were given the opportunity to drive around Stuttgart in cars equipped with the new system. The results captured from these demonstration drives showed average NOx emissions of under 40mg/km, despite the cars being driven in city centre traffic.

While the system cannot be easily retrofitted to old cars, it is based on already-existing components and is available immediately. It can be incorporated into car makers’ production projects, and the system allows diesel engines to maintain their fuel economy and carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions.



Denner promised more improvements in emissions management would be forthcoming, as Bosch plans to use artificial intelligence to build on its emissions reduction technology. “We firmly believe that the diesel engine will continue to play an important role in the options for future mobility,” he added.

Denner said electric cars had a fundamental role to play in future transport, but “until electromobility breaks through to the mass market, we will still need these highly efficient combustion engines.”
 
Last edited by a moderator:

IA DPE

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Location
Iowa USA
TDI
2009 Jetta (sold back 08/18); 2014 Q5 (totaled 12/19😥); 2013 Dodge Cummins
I sure hope so. I bought a '14 Q5 with 24k miles on it to replace my Jetta 2.0. My hope at the time of buying the Q5 was that by the time it was due for replacement VW/Audi would have diesel figured out. This announcement is a hopeful step in that direction.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Awesome, too bad VAG is evidently too butt hurt to bother with bringing them back HERE. :(

Of course, you do have to take these statements with a grain of salt, as they sorta said all the same things before, and as it turns out, it was not all what they promised. I'd trust it more if it was tested and verified by a third party for its authenticity.
 

atc98002

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Location
Auburn WA
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
... I'd trust it more if it was tested and verified by a third party for its authenticity.
Something tells me they're going to have to do that for any credibility. :D
 
Last edited:

soldierguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Location
California
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
I'd be really curious to read about the tech/hardware/chemistry side of it. From reading the Bosch Chairman's remarks, it sounds like it is focused on better controlling the temperature of EGR...so a new EGR cooler design maybe? But anytime I hear anything about EGR, my first thought goes to particulates being recirculated, leading to sludge buildup...which is why (given my rudimentary knowledge) I have always wondered why EGR gasses are generally not picked up downstream of the particulate filter.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Sounds promising. Too bad they didn't develop this approach 10 years ago rather than looking for ways to game the system- or look the other way while VW did.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well you're both right. HP and LP EGR :p

My thoughts are along the line of some type of liquid cooling somewhere in the exhaust stream.

All TDIs sold here since 1997 have had liquid cooled EGR. The newer engines employ some very complex cooling system circuits, dual thermostats, additional pumps, etc., to help both get the engine up to temp quickly as well as keep it there. But exhaust temp is very important too, and to pump coolant through the hot parts of the exhaust (as some hybrid gasoline cars do) would help keep the engine warm, but would be detrimental in their cooling effects on the exhaust components that need to be very hot in order to function properly.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Note that my hybrid's exhaust heat exchanger is post-catalytic converter, for precisely that reason. Recover heat to speed warm-up (helping engine durability, emissions, efficiency, and cabin comfort), but only what the cat doesn't need.

(Also, AFAIK the Gen 4 Prius now takes its EGR after that heat exchanger, meaning it doesn't need a separate EGR cooler, and because it's now post-cat, hopefully the intake clogging problems that the Gen 3 is known for will be reduced or eliminated.)
 

Fixmy59bug

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
Henderson, NV
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SE
Because now they can say ok, instead of the standard being 120mg/km, it is now 5mg/km.

Oh, you can't meet that standard? Too bad, so sad...
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Location
California
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
All TDIs sold here since 1997 have had liquid cooled EGR. The newer engines employ some very complex cooling system circuits, dual thermostats, additional pumps, etc., to help both get the engine up to temp quickly as well as keep it there. But exhaust temp is very important too, and to pump coolant through the hot parts of the exhaust (as some hybrid gasoline cars do) would help keep the engine warm, but would be detrimental in their cooling effects on the exhaust components that need to be very hot in order to function properly.
Tangent coming....

Your mention of getting both engine and exhaust temperatures up quickly reminded me of something I've noticed a couple of times in my '15 TDI. At least twice now, in the roughly 13,000 miles I've driven mine since buying it at the end of January, I've noticed a regen beginning within just a couple of minutes of leaving the house in the morning. It's happened at the first stoplight I hit, less than a half-mile from my house, after very light throttle and speeds of 25 mph or less. These were cool mornings (mid-40's outside temps) and after the car sat all night, so all systems were cold.

Maybe that's normal for these to get warm enough to support a regen so quickly. But I was surprised by it.

Side note: my daily commute is about 225 miles, so it's pretty close to the roughly 250 miles I think I'm seeing between regens. So I tend to go through cycles of not noticing regens for a while, then a few days in a row where I'll notice them at the beginning or end of my commute.

But back on topic...

I'm very intrigued by this Bosch technology. This could be great for Diesel lovers. If I had to guess, when the Former VW Chairman recently mentioned the possibility of getting back into Diesels, maybe he had knowledge of Bosch's work on this.
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Location
California
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
Note that my hybrid's exhaust heat exchanger is post-catalytic converter, for precisely that reason. Recover heat to speed warm-up (helping engine durability, emissions, efficiency, and cabin comfort), but only what the cat doesn't need.

(Also, AFAIK the Gen 4 Prius now takes its EGR after that heat exchanger, meaning it doesn't need a separate EGR cooler, and because it's now post-cat, hopefully the intake clogging problems that the Gen 3 is known for will be reduced or eliminated.)
Funny...I traded a '16 Prius with 93,500 miles to get my '15 Jetta TDI.

Just for your info: somewhere around 80K miles, I peeked down inside the intake tube around the throttle plate. I couldn't see any oil puddling up or sludge buildup like the earlier generations had issues with, but I did see a light film of oil on everything. At 90K I had an intake cleaning done...basically they hook up a machine that then provides all the air getting into the engine, pressurize it all with air and a cleaner, then run the car while it's still hooked up to the machine and getting more cleaner. Clouds of gunk coming out of the tailpipe ensued. Made me think of Seafoam, but under pressure. That took care of the oily film I saw, and the car did run noticeably smoother after that.
 

Billion003

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
TDI
2011 Golf
Ohhhh, Wow...major technology advancement for diesel technology. So 21st century! Now I wonder if they will continue with the technology of...making a 2-door car...and a manual transmission. Or is this technology too difficult now?

Sarcasm...almost.
 
Last edited:

Macradiators.com

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Location
Romania
TDI
2.0 CR 360hp
If you wanna stop pollution start by eating less meat, use less milk and less food waste. the no1 cause of whats happening to the weather.
it's all a fking joke
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
If you wanna stop pollution start by eating less meat, use less milk and less food waste. the no1 cause of whats happening to the weather.
it's all a fking joke
Stop making more kids. The world did just fine when it only had 2 billion people on it. Now we're at what, 8 billion and growing? Even with highly efficient lives, the sheer numbers overwhelm the savings
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Stop making more kids. The world did just fine when it only had 2 billion people on it. Now we're at what, 8 billion and growing? Even with highly efficient lives, the sheer numbers overwhelm the savings

That has been my point all along. But nobody seems to want to talk about it.

A friend of ours who is a nurse used to go to Africa every year for volunteer work through various organizations. She helped work with the AIDS epidemic there, especially working with prevention but also doing a lot with medication. AIDS is no longer a death sentence, as there are medications that if taken correctly can allow someone afflicted to live out a relatively normal life span. This is easy here in the USA, as taking medication daily is quite common for a lot of us for a lot of reasons. But in much of Africa, that is difficult. She worked to help people manage this, but as years went on, she realized that while they were able to help a lot of people live longer... in many cases helping them to live period... they ended up causing more issues with overcrowding and malnourishment. And when a particularly poor harvest happens one year, which it does from time to time, people starve. Especially children. So her task slowly but surely transformed from helping to keep people from dying from one thing, to helping to keep MORE people from dying from something else. Yet all along, the usually church-based (mostly Catholic) organizations she worked with didn't (and still don't) seem interested in trying to educate and prevent so many children from "happening" in the first place. :rolleyes:
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
That has been my point all along. But nobody seems to want to talk about it.

A friend of ours who is a nurse used to go to Africa every year for volunteer work through various organizations. She helped work with the AIDS epidemic there, especially working with prevention but also doing a lot with medication. AIDS is no longer a death sentence, as there are medications that if taken correctly can allow someone afflicted to live out a relatively normal life span. This is easy here in the USA, as taking medication daily is quite common for a lot of us for a lot of reasons. But in much of Africa, that is difficult. She worked to help people manage this, but as years went on, she realized that while they were able to help a lot of people live longer... in many cases helping them to live period... they ended up causing more issues with overcrowding and malnourishment. And when a particularly poor harvest happens one year, which it does from time to time, people starve. Especially children. So her task slowly but surely transformed from helping to keep people from dying from one thing, to helping to keep MORE people from dying from something else. Yet all along, the usually church-based (mostly Catholic) organizations she worked with didn't (and still don't) seem interested in trying to educate and prevent so many children from "happening" in the first place. :rolleyes:
Let's not get started on the religion thing. So many have policies against birth control or the beliefs that more kids = better, quiver-full, fruitful and multiply, no concern about a limited planet because divine intervention will protect us. All I can say is educate, educate, educate. More education and better economic livelihood typically reduces the birth rate.
 

cevans

TDIClub Enthusiast, TDI Parts Ninja Vendor , w/Bus
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Location
Hingham, MA
TDI
2015 Jetta TDI 6spd // 2015 Bettle Conv. 6-Speed
Not sure how we got into this but...

Capitalism relies on economic growth, which also relies on population growth. The economic issues that some European have are directly related to too-slow or shrinking populations. Our whole system relies on the next generation being bigger than the one before it.

If we were to talk about slowing population growth, we'd also have to look in the mirror and have a hard conversation about the things that Americans value. You'd have to move to planned economy...
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
Not sure how we got into this but...

Capitalism relies on economic growth, which also relies on population growth. The economic issues that some European have are directly related to too-slow or shrinking populations. Our whole system relies on the next generation being bigger than the one before it.

If we were to talk about slowing population growth, we'd also have to look in the mirror and have a hard conversation about the things that Americans value. You'd have to move to planned economy...
We don't need growth to live decently. Once we attained a certain level of technology, life wasn't very hard - lights, heat/AC, reliable food supply. We have it made if we can avoid destroying ourselves.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top