Boost lag on GTB2260VK, Solutions?

[BritishBora]

I am currently working on a 1.9tdi PD130 engine running on the standard Garret VNT17 VA turbo which begins boost at just under 2000rpm, this is fun... but also now feels very slow. Also before this had a VNT15 which began boost at around 1700rpm which was a great daily driver but in a 0-60scenario has no where near enough boost.
So...
I will now be fitting a GTB2260VK during the engine rebuild so that the engine will be tuned at around 250bhp but with the potential for 300bhp once that feels slow.
My question is has anyone found a reasonable solution for the boost lag with these larger turbos as I have heard some don't even begin to boost until 3000rpm!!!
This is going to be a daily driver but also used as my fun car.

Any knowledge or ideas would be great

 

[Andyinchville1]

Hi

I have heard but I do not have personal experience with turbo blankets and exhaust pipe wrapping helping spool times.

How much sooner if it causes boost to come on versus not having those on I'm not exactly sure but I do I recall reading that it supposedly helps.

A separate side benefit is that it keeps under hood temperatures down.

Big injectors and tune can also help with spooling by overfueling things a little on the low side to encourage more EGT and encourage spool up.

If you can get the ball bearing version of that Turbo that also helps it to spool faster.

Andrew

 

[Mongler98]

If you want no boost lag run dual supercharger into your turbo. Very inefficient and not much better than a good turbo setup but it does eliminate spool time if you gear the charger right. Supper complicated and has drawbacks.
Or you could spend more than your car is worth in a electric turbo hybrid and a battery setup that nearly trumps the weight you added to the car and cost savings if any of fuel.

Long story short, you want to drive it at all normally, live with lag.

 

[MAXRPM]

2260vk got a lot of lag, company in Europe is installing ball bearings in that turbo, im going to test it and see if it spools better, once it spools you are going to like the power but I never liked that it was lethargic down low and you will have a lot of smoke

 

[derek5120]

^gtb2260vklr or if you want better spool and save some money the gtb2060vklr should get you over the 250hp range but not 300hp. Gottuned rates them at 270hp.

 

[Rgroves231]

I am almost done installing my 2260vklr ball bearing turbo. I will report back how spooling compares to my stock VNT-15.

 

[BritishBora]

Would be interesting to look into heat wrapping it all after install as that's easy done even if it only helps a small amount and think I'm going with 100% injectors and a tune once i can find a good custom tuner in south of the UK

I have been looking at running a supercharger as well as large turbo for the smooth torque line and to pick up the slack in low rpm. On the same idea looked at twin turbo set up with a smaller turbo to carry the low rpm until the larger 22 has spooled up but I'm yet to find anyone with a clear explanation of what would be required to run either setup as everyone is keeping this info close to the chest which kinda sucks for a rookie like me who wants to understand. Hadn't even thought of a a electric hybrid... hmm

MAXRPM - That was my worry do you know roughly when they kick in (rpm wise)? Do you have a link for the ball bearing model at all?
I don't mind smoke really as long as its not stupidly bad at low rpm so i can cruise without it and only smoke when i'm WOT but again you hit the nail on the head as i hate that gutless feeling in low rpm for a daily driver as trying to pull out at a junction is worrying with no power for 5 seconds after before POWAHH

 

[BritishBora]

What the difference between VKLR and VK as im looking at the VK right now??

gtb2060vklr does sound simpler for what I want which is fast and a daily driver but i know i will get the itch too hit 300bhp as honestly a few people in my car group have just bought cars near 200bhp for £20k such as a Hyundai I30N and I would love to make them eat their words about diesels in my 1K value **** box ahaha

 

[BritishBora]

I am almost done installing my 2260vklr ball bearing turbo. I will report back how spooling compares to my stock VNT-15.

Excellent!! Love to speak to someone who's made the leap before me aha, Where did you pick that up out of interest and roughly how much??

But yes please let me know how it feels too you and roughly what rpm it actually kicks in for good boost

 

[derek5120]

The difference between the vk and vklr is that the vk is journal bearing and the vklr are ceramic bearing turbos that are liquid cooled (most people don't hook up this portion on a tdi) The ball bearing turbos have better response and spool quicker, but can overspeed if you get a boost leak. The journal turbos are more forgiving but are slower.

Also, a youtube channel called powerdriven diesel did a comparison on turbos with and without heat wrap. They used a cummins as a test bench however.

 

[BritishBora]

Just for reference this is the turbo I have been looking at the GTB2260VK which I believe has slow spool and confirmed by MAXRPM

The second link is for the suggested GTB2060vklr by Derek5120 which is made by the same people which they claim is good for 300bhp so a little higher then the 270hp rating from Gottuned, Although I notice this comes with a water feed line for cooling which I don't have set up so wondering what i would need for this? Assuming its a bit more complicated than a water bottle with a feed in and feed out aha

Any votes as to which turbo considering the daily driving but also wanting to break the 300hp barrier and whoop some bought not built drivers in my group

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[BritishBora]

The difference between the vk and vklr is that the vk is journal bearing and the vklr are ceramic bearing turbos that are liquid cooled (most people don't hook up this portion on a tdi) The ball bearing turbos have better response and spool quicker, but can overspeed if you get a boost leak. The journal turbos are more forgiving but are slower.

Also, a youtube channel called powerdriven diesel did a comparison on turbos with and without heat wrap. They used a cummins as a test bench however.

So essentially the VKLR are better as spool up faster with more response and there is no need too hook up the water feed? By overspeed do you mean like the turbo running away and providing too much boost?

Also I am at work right now so cant watch it yet but did they find that heat wrap helped spool up time? I know Cummins are a whole different breed but helps give an idea

 

[Andyinchville1]

I am almost done installing my 2260vklr ball bearing turbo. I will report back how spooling compares to my stock VNT-15.

Hi

Yes, that would definitely be interesting to hear how the larger turbo reacts boost wise when compared to the stock 15.

My guess is there still has to be some boost down low just maybe not enough to clear up smoke from huge injectors...

On the flip side I'll look at your signature and see what injectors and pump your running ... I'm wondering if Smoke down low could be non-existent or minimized with smaller injectors .... but then again the turbo being bigger may never spool with small injectors so I guess it's all a balancing act but definitely interested in reading your findings. thanks

 

[BritishBora]

Hi

Yes, that would definitely be interesting to hear how the larger turbo reacts boost wise when compared to the stock 15.

My guess is there still has to be some boost down low just maybe not enough to clear up smoke from huge injectors...

On the flip side I'll look at your signature and see what injectors and pump your running ... I'm wondering if Smoke down low could be non-existent or minimized with smaller injectors .... but then again the turbo being bigger may never spool with small injectors so I guess it's all a balancing act but definitely interested in reading your findings. thanks

Hey Andy do you think you could just configure bigger Injectors to let through less fuel during low rpm to avoid the smoke problem or would the larger nozzle size just automatically let through too much fuel and create the smoke issue. Now means I will have to look back into 80%vs100% injectors depending on what turbo I go for as i was in the mindset of just bigger the injector the better

 

[Poor King]

The difference between the vk and vklr is that the vk is journal bearing and the vklr are ceramic bearing turbos that are liquid cooled (most people don't hook up this portion on a tdi) The ball bearing turbos have better response and spool quicker, but can overspeed if you get a boost leak. The journal turbos are more forgiving but are slower.

Also, a youtube channel called powerdriven diesel did a comparison on turbos with and without heat wrap. They used a cummins as a test bench however.

Are you sure about this? The main cause of ceramic bearings failure is due to lack of lubrication which they are more dependant of over journal bearing turbos, thus making the latter much more forgiving.

Or maybe I am missing something on diesel installs which allows this important factor to be left out of the equation.

 

[BritishBora]

Are you sure about this? The main cause of ceramic bearings failure is due to lack of lubrication which they are more dependant of over journal bearing turbos, thus making the latter much more forgiving.

Or maybe I am missing something on diesel installs which allows this important factor to be left out of the equation.

I THINK that's exactly what he is saying too if i read it correct, he says the the ceramic bearings spool faster and thus are better performing but are more prone to failure which is why the Journal bearings are more forgiving/reliable although are slower spooling.

So comes back to the classic Power vs Reliability equation Is it too much to ask for both??

 

[Andyinchville1]

FWIW - I believe when running bearings an oil flow restrictor may need to be used if the car was originally not using bearings (as in our case with stock turbos ... too much oil flow "drowns" the bearings and does not allow then to spin freely).

The issue that causes the big lubrication problem is when people shut off engines when they are really hot without allowing a cool down since this sometimes causes some oil to coke and gum up the bearings ... over time this is a problem bigger problem with BB turbos than regular journal bearings that have higher oil flows and "gaps" to flush / push things out better (still not good but better than with BB) .... this can be solved with proper cooldown before shut down if run hard or you can buy a turbo timer.

Andrew

 

[Poor King]

I THINK that's exactly what he is saying too if i read it correct, he says the the ceramic bearings spool faster and thus are better performing but are more prone to failure which is why the Journal bearings are more forgiving/reliable although are slower spooling.

So comes back to the classic Power vs Reliability equation Is it too much to ask for both??

I should have been more specific-- what he mentioned in closed brackets..

(most people don't hook up this portion on a tdi)

 

[adamss24]

Hi guys, mapped properly a gtb2260vk will spoil as quick as a gt1749va ! My experience is based on a gtb2260vk in a mk2 with pd 150 injectors (AL) and long degrees of injection. The turbo is too quick to build boost and actually surges if stepped on it in 5th under 1800rpms ! However it goes like a scalded cat when on boost ! Vklr are nicer but spool is marginally better and comes with few drawbacks ! I suggest mounting vklr chra in gtb2260vk housings and the vnt cage to be fixed as per vk turbos !! Egt are within safe limits with my setup however I believe I am lifting the head at only 1.85 bar of boost ! Car is insanely fast !!!

 

[BritishBora]

I should have been more specific-- what he mentioned in closed brackets..

Ahh i see so do you think i should hook up water cooling if its supplied or should do it regardless if it comes with it?? As i am interested in how you would put together a set up like that but never looked at it before.

I suppose the lower temps the better really

 

[BritishBora]

Hi guys, mapped properly a gtb2260vk will spoil as quick as a gt1749va ! My experience is based on a gtb2260vk in a mk2 with pd 150 injectors (AL) and long degrees of injection. The turbo is too quick to build boost and actually surges if stepped on it in 5th under 1800rpms ! However it goes like a scalded cat when on boost ! Vklr are nicer but spool is marginally better and comes with few drawbacks ! I suggest mounting vklr chra in gtb2260vk housings and the vnt cage to be fixed as per vk turbos !! Egt are within safe limits with my setup however I believe I am lifting the head at only 1.85 bar of boost ! Car is insanely fast !!!

Hm now this is interesting, how does the gt1749VA spool vs the vnt1749VA? as vnt are variable vane and not sure if gt/b ones are or not. The vnt17 was very nice and boost kicks in between 1700-1800rpm.
Glad to hear your having fun with the turbo though as like the idea of the "scalded cat" kinda power
So with your setup gtb2260vk and the pd150 injectors with longer duration for more fuel roughly what rpm is your turbo kicking in for 1st/2nd/3rd gear daily driving?? As i cant be spinning up with massive pulls on my commute to work everyday but want to be able to race from static without other cars getting a massive lead on me while im still waiting for turbo to spool you know

 

[Rrusse11]

GTD1756VRK Billet Wheel GEN I/GEN II Hybrid Turbo vacuum converted and welded onto stock 1.6, 1.9, 2.0TDI – GotTuned.com

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You'd be better off with something like this, especially if it's also your daily driver.

 

[Poor King]

Ahh i see so do you think i should hook up water cooling if its supplied or should do it regardless if it comes with it?? As i am interested in how you would put together a set up like that but never looked at it before.

I suppose the lower temps the better really

After reading the comment above, I'm not sure. Maybe there's a reason as to why diesel owners are opting out of it...?

I'd also take the lag scenario you read up on with a grain of salt. Dump enough fuel to burn and you will have an efficient setup with a 2260. I highly recommend a call to Darkside Developments as they have done a ton of these setups with success.

 

[MAXRPM]

I have always said if you would like a GTB2260vk, you'd better use it for racing, cause you'd keep RPMs high all the time, and turbo will spool up, in the city I do not recommend, freight train within sight, members tell me is the tune, cmon the initial spool can't never be tuned, I had 1749 turbos in the past, you can't compare the initial spool from this tiny turbos to 2260vk, my advice to you is, get VKLR and get it over with, or if you already have 2260vk then upgraded to a GTB2260VRK ( Ball bearings) I have done a really good research about what members here claim that a sudden major boost leak and vklr is a goner,, it seems to be not true, I have asked these questions to the actual turbo builders and they are telling me who is telling me this non sense, they said they have never had any VKLR turbo come back to them with this issues,,,,,, and they build them quite a bit for racing.

 

[Andyinchville1]

Just curious but at what PSI does one consider a turbo to begin "spooling"

I know many go by RPM BUT aren't most turbos putting out at least some boost even at lower RPMs from where they start "spooling" (can a 2260 muster 10 psi boost under 2000 RPM?). .... or is the point of spooling like when a 2 stroke dirt bike gets into it's powerband and starts screaming?

Of course using only a VNT 15 maybe comparatively it is essentially almost always spooling for practical purposes whereas larger turbos are like light switches as far as feel? ... that is alot of nothing and smoke to blast off once the turbo "wakes" up ?

I have just not personally experienced a big turbo to appreciate (or not appreciate) when spool happens .... (of course when my boost hose blew off and I had essentially 0 boost THAT is probably what NOT spooling feels like ;-)).

Andrew

PS - I think it would be interesting if somebody could take a car set up one way (say 11 mm pump and .205 injectors, same intake , same exhaust etc or at least as similar as possible ) and simply change out turbos and graph boost VS RPM on a dyno pull so we can get a relative "feel" of how each turbo responds in comparison to one another.

All too often it is hard to quantitatively compare lag and spool points of different turbos since all people have different supporting hardware , tunes , weather conditions , load conditions , driving styles , etc ....

Malone did a flow bench test of different intake manifolds awhile back maybe we can get them to do a test on the different turbos using the SAME supporting hardware / tune so we can see the relative differences in the turbos themselves ? (or maybe darkside of other turbo suppliers / sellers or for that matter a member ?).

 

[MAXRPM]

I had quite a bit of turbos since my existence here at the forum, from VNT15, 17, 1722, 1756VK,GTB2260VK GTD1756VRK,GTB2060VKLR, 2265VKLR, Soon 2260VRK Ball bearings will come to me I'll put it to test, my experience with all these turbos, I never liked the VK turbos period, journal bearings vs Ball bearings, Ball bearings will be better, not talking about reliability but spooling, night and day,,,,, c'mon why are we comparing VNT15 or 17 to 2260? Simple chemistry bigger wheels takes a lot longer to spin then little wheels, simple math, that is an absurd comparison, we wish we could have our cake and eat it, but there is no such a thing, if you want to have better spooling never like VNT15, or 17, or GTD1756VRK ball bearing turbo, get a Ball bearing that's a better technology than journal bearings, I have put all of these turbos to the test, and I can attest this.

 

[Poor King]

Far as thread responses go, cannot overlook the fact that OP is working with a PD130 and not an ALH.

 

[BritishBora]

I have always said if you would like a GTB2260vk, you'd better use it for racing, cause you'd keep RPMs high all the time, and turbo will spool up, in the city I do not recommend, freight train within sight, members tell me is the tune, cmon the initial spool can't never be tuned, I had 1749 turbos in the past, you can't compare the initial spool from this tiny turbos to 2260vk, my advice to you is, get VKLR and get it over with, or if you already have 2260vk then upgraded to a GTB2260VRK ( Ball bearings) I have done a really good research about what members here claim that a sudden major boost leak and vklr is a goner,, it seems to be not true, I have asked these questions to the actual turbo builders and they are telling me who is telling me this non sense, they said they have never had any VKLR turbo come back to them with this issues,,,,,, and they build them quite a bit for racing.

So i completely understand the bigger the wheel the longer it takes to spool, not comparing the 15/17 against the 22 as in which ever spools quicker is better as that would be just crazy. I am interested though in just how BIG the gap between the two is for spooling up to provide boost so i can get it in my head how different it would feel. Hopefully helps me make my mind up which one i want to choose.

I saw your suggestion of VKLR instead of VK (which I haven't ordered yet so lucky me), do you mean just got with the 22VKLR or just make sure whatever size i get make sure its one of the VKLR range? Now honestly I do usually drive quite aggressive so high rpm and moving quickly its only for the occasional times where i am out with the family and need to cruise slowly or lower rpm band that I don't want it to feel like I'm driving a car with 10hp aha.

On another note guys is there anything that can be done to make the engine itself perform better/quicker without boost from the turbo much like a NA engine would as perhaps this will help it feel less slugish while boost is kicking in??
Also yes I am starting from my a PD130 base engine not a PD150 but the idea would be to completely rebuild the block of the engine with stronger H rods etc. and as I am aware all the heads are exactly the same so I will just get this ported and polished with bigger valves etc. so i believe this engine will be well up for handling whatever i can afford to throw at it so its just turbo choice now for long term goal of get it too a nice 250hp or 300hp seen as I will be throwing 5k+ at it in performance upgrades not including turbo

Choices Choices

 

[MAXRPM]

Responding to you about PD, I guarantee you that if you test a ball bearing turbo on a PD, journal bearing will be still slow compared to a ball bearing and still will have more guts low mid and upper band,

To answer your question definitely I'd get VKLR, 2060VKLR or 2260VKLR, wouldn't you want your car to get going quicker from a stop? That sec that takes the car to get going with a journal bearings it is hard to make up in a race, now there are also other choices like GTD1756VRK, very nice little turbo ball bearing that will spool up like VNT15, you can get this turbo up to 240hp with the right mods and good tune, but since you want more HP,,,, VKLR is the way to go

 

[Andyinchville1]

I think to have power without boost you would need to do some or all of the following :

1) Larger injectors - Smoke and possible EGT issues without boost tho

2) Increase the compression ratio - BUT generally people DECREASE the compression ratio when running high boost so take that into consideration since you would still be using the turbo

3) Bore and possibly stroke the engine (never really heard of a stroked TDI but I guess anything is possible with enough $$ - Basically bigger (more cubic inches or in our case liters) typically means more power potential.

4) Headwork - port / polish / larger valves

5) Bigger Cam

6) water / meth / nitrous / propane etc injection

7) larger injection pump (I don't know if I could recommed an 12 mm but 11 MM seems to be a good performance unit).

Andrew